Alternatives to JSF V/STOL for UK and Italy

[uk 75]

Italy has built and commissioned a light carrier in the time that the UK has been planning its own.
However, in doing so Italy has commited itself to either operating a SOVL aircraft or using the ship for helicopters only. If F35s enter service with the US Marines as planned, Italy's ship will have been a good investment. If not, what can the US Marines and Italy do by way of alternatives?

I assume that the US Marines will simply modify its Harrier force and that Italy will do likewise. If this happens, it might be ironic if the UK then has to buy a small number of these aircraft for its flattops. What do others think?

 

[Mike Pryce]

If not, what can the US Marines and Italy do by way of alternatives?

Not much - the Harriers can be life extended (some say out to 2040) but systems issues would lead to expensive maintenance, probably higher failure rates etc. Of course, for the USMC they have a new source of spares, recently acquired at knock-down prices.... :-[


I very much doubt the UK would buy any of these back. Possibly some sort of cross-decking ops could happen between the UK and Harrier operators, but although the Cavour can be justified as a helicopter/troop carrier, could a CVF? I still think India might end up with QE & PoW (INS Indira and Rajiv Gandhi?!)

 

[royabulgaf]

If India is going to do that, they should buy the Garibaldi or Cavour and call it the Sonia Gandhi

 

[uk 75]

According to the current Janes, India has a Soviet built carrier under conversion from a Kiev ship and is designing its own ship with Italian assistance. Depending on the terms and conditions, the two British ships might provide an alternative, but would leave India with the same problem-what do you fly off them?

Harrier remains the only successful VSTOL fighter. Perhaps there is more life in the design yet?

 

[GTX]

but would leave India with the same problem-what do you fly off them?

Given both the new Vikrant class aircraft carriers and the converted INS Vikramaditya are all STOBAR types operating either MiG-29s or HAL Tejas variants as their primary aircraft, I think that should India also ever get the CVFs (unlikely IMHO), then they would also operate with similar.

 

[uk 75]

GTX

Of course you are right to mention the Mig 29s and the Indian light fighter. However, I am not sure whether either type will prove easy to operate as India will be the only user of either (Russia developed the Mig 29 carrier variant but operates the more capable Sukhoi). It just seems to me that the good old Harrier remains the most developed lightweight carrier aircraft available for users.

Perhaps the Indians, who have put a shot in the arm of Jaguar etc, could do the same for the Harrier.

If India does buy the Rafale, it might then opt to go for the maritime version as well, but this has so far only operated from the nuclear powered DeGaulle

 

[royabulgaf]

The deGaulle is in the 40k ton class. Rafales should easily operate off the new Indian carriers.

 

[Triton]

How viable was a Lockheed Martin/Yakolev Yak-41M aka Yak-141 as a STOVL replacement? Or a collaboration between BAe and Yakolev?

I was also imagining that Japan might want to operate STOVL aircraft from its new helicopter destroyers. Perhaps a collaborative project of the United States, United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, and Japan to create a new STOVL aircraft?

 

[SpudmanWP]

LM had nothing to do with the YAK-141

 

[Triton]

LM had nothing to do with the YAK-141

Lockheed Martin didn't give Yakolev $385 to $400 million to build three new Yak-141 prototypes and another static test aircraft to test improvements in design and avionics as claimed by author Bill Gunston?

 

[SpudmanWP]

I'd have to see the contract

btw, a quick Google search shows that LM paid for the Yak-141 to come to the '92 air show and that's about it. There were never any additional airframes built and no changes to the original Yak-41M design were flown.

 

[Jemiba]

btw, a quick Google search shows that LM paid for the Yak-141 to come to the '92 air show and that's about it.

IIRC, there was some kind of cooperation on the design of the swivelling nozzle ?

 

[SpudmanWP]

btw, a quick Google search shows that LM paid for the Yak-141 to come to the '92 air show and that's about it.

IIRC, there was some kind of cooperation on the design of the swivelling nozzle ?

The Yak-41 was already flying with a swiveling nozzle before LM became involved. LM was paying to have a look and to have Yak run some tests on altered designes. Nothing ever came of it as no other prototypes were ever constructed or flown.

Also, The 3 Bearing Swiveling Nozzle on the F-35B was designed by Rolls Royce, not LM.

 

[Triton]

I wonder if the BAE Systems Replica project could have been adapted to a STOVL configuration. The design has a strong resemblance to the McDonnell Douglas / British Aerospace / Northrop Grumman team JSF proposal.

Would United States participation in a STOVL or VSTOL program be a requirement? Or could UK, Italy, Spain, and perhaps Japan, purchase enough aircraft to make a largely European development project feasible? Would Europe have stealth as a requirement?