Alternative RNLN Air Defense concepts

[TomS]

I'm wondering if there are any good sources for RNLN concepts for air defense ships other than the Broomstick/Sea Dart program with the RN (touched on here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sea-dart-success.26547/#post-272891).

Specifically, I'm wondering if they ever considered any new build ships with Terrier rather than Tartar. Or was the De Zeven Provencien conversion an aberration?

A Terrier ship with Tromp like systems would be interesting; a Dutch Suffren, in essence.

 

[Hood]

I've not seen any, certainly the Dutch Shipbucket gang would have been all over these I think there been any Terrier studies.

 

[TomS]

I've not seen any, certainly the Dutch Shipbucket gang would have been all over these I think there been any Terrier studies.

Of course they would. I should have thought of that.

OK, so that puts a Dutch Terrier DLG firmly into fantasy fleets territory. I guess I can manage.

 

[Hood]

Of course they would. I should have thought of that.

I've forwarded your question to the Shipbucket Discord and will let you know if they know of anything (I know MihoshiK is a member here too).

 

[Dilandu]

Specifically, I'm wondering if they ever considered any new build ships with Terrier rather than Tartar. Or was the De Zeven Provencien conversion an aberration?

RIM-2 Terrier was massive. It required significant space inside the hull for horizontal drum magazines, and its targeting radars weren't exactly lightweight either. So essentially, the "new build ships" must be cruiser-size vessels - which would be a very costly proposal.

 

[TomS]

Specifically, I'm wondering if they ever considered any new build ships with Terrier rather than Tartar. Or was the De Zeven Provencien conversion an aberration?

RIM-2 Terrier was massive. It required significant space inside the hull for horizontal drum magazines, and its targeting radars weren't exactly lightweight either. So essentially, the "new build ships" must be cruiser-size vessels - which would be a very costly proposal.

Of course. It wasn't totally out of the realm of things that European navies could do in the late 1960s, though. The Italians managed it in ~6500 tons fl even with multiple helicopters (the Andrea Doria class) and the French Suffrens managed to fit the even larger Masurca (plus Malafon) in ~6100 tons fl. Not to mention the RN County class, with Sea Slug, which was even bulkier. Heck, the US managed to shoe-horn Terrier into the Farragut class at ~5700 tons fl (albeit with top-weight issues).

Basically, my musing was that a ship with essentially the Tromp combat system but with Terrier and SPG-55 instead of Tarter and SPG-51 would likely have come in around 6000 tons. Which is a good 40% more than the actual Tromps. Doable, but not cheap (though mostly steel, so not 40% more expensive, necessarily)

Really, it's part of a fantasy fleets idea I've played with (starting with a larger Netherlands post WW2) that kept a couple of light fleet carriers (instead of just Karel Doorman) and an enhanced escort fleet to go with them.

 

[uk 75]

De Ruyter was also supposed to get Terrier but did not.
Only two Tromp class were built. Two Koertenaer class received the Tartar launchers which may have been intended for extra Tromps.
The West German Navy was limited by tonnage to Tartar ships in the form of three Adams class destroyers It planned a missile corvette design with Tartar but this was cancelled in favour of Koertenaer class frigates.
The Italian Navy stopped building Terrier cruisers after Veneto in the 60s and continued with Tartar destroyers.
The US also used Tartar rather than Terrier for the California class. The later Virginia class used a new twin arm launcher for Standard.

 

[TomS]

Yes, I know the history.

The transition to Tartar was driven by a couple of factors. One, obviously, was cost. Tartar (and SM-2MR) was cheaper to install and operate. It allowed for much smaller air defense ships because Mk 13 was so compact.

The other was the deployment of SS-N-7 in 1968. That changed the threat to one that could appear from a submerged submarine at relatively short range with little warning and in significant numbers. Which made RoF and reaction time more important than absolute maximum range.

That's one reason the Tromp weapon system is interesting. The inclusion of Sea Sparrow gives them an extra layer of defense against pop-up missiles that pure Terrier ships lacked.

 

[Hood]

Seems to be a blank from the Shipbucket other than confirmation that De Ruyter's conversion was just too expensive.

Guess it was just too costly to consider.

 

[TomS]

Probably so, even with Terrier itself reportedly being free from the US side.

 

[Arjen]

From another thread:

Marineschepen.nl (site in Dutch) states the USA provided the Terrier installation which otherwise would have cost the Dutch Navy 120 million guilders. Conversion of C802 cost 40 million guilders. Rate of exchange at the time was ± 2.5 guilders to 1 US dollar.

From the Marineschepen-page:

In 1958 was Nederland in onderhandeling met de VS over diverse systemen voor de marine, waaronder vliegtuigen. Niet alles werd ons land even makkelijk toegeschoven, maar de Terriers bleken nu geen probleem. De Amerikanen boden voor beide kruisers een systeem aan ter waarde van in totaal 120 miljoen gulden, mits Nederland zelf de kosten voor de verbouwing op zich zou nemen (40 miljoen gulden in totaal).

De vloot bestond in die tijd voor een deel uit schepen die de Tweede Wereldoorlog hadden meegemaakt. De KM richtte zich niet zozeer op uitbreiding, maar op aanpassing van systemen. Daar was geld voor nodig, maar in Den Haag wilde men de KM niet de bedragen toezeggen die de zeemacht nodig dacht te hebben. Toen de KM, na crashes met de Martin PBM Mariner vliegtuigen besloot extra Neptunes te kopen, was er geen geld meer voor de verwapening van twee kruisers. Hr.Ms. De Ruyter zou het zonder geleide wapens moeten stellen.

Translation:

In 1958, the Netherlands was negotiating with the US about various systems for the navy, including aircraft. Not everything was easily passed on to our country, but the Terriers turned out to be no problem now. The Americans offered a system for both cruisers worth a total of 120 million guilders, provided that the Netherlands itself would bear the costs for the renovation (40 million guilders in total).

At that time, the fleet consisted partly of ships that had experienced the Second World War. The [RNLN] focused not so much on expansion, but on adapting systems. Money was needed for this, but in The Hague they did not want to promise the [RNLN] the amounts that the naval forces thought they needed. When the [RNLN], after crashes with the Martin PBM Mariner aircraft, decided to buy extra Neptunes, there was no money left for the armament of two cruisers. Hr.Ms. De Ruyter would have to do without guided weapons.