AK47 for the Free World?

[uk 75]

The AK47 and its derivatives became the weapon of the various countries and groups that challenged the postwar "Free World".
If you could pick a Western designed rifle that could have matched the AK47 which one would you choose?
It looks as if the M16 family comes closest.

 

[klem]

Well the model I would choose remained at the Loeffler and Vorgrimler AME 1950 prototype stage which France had abandoned for budgetary reasons at the time but which had great success afterwards and even evolved into a world famous weapon by the way by Spain CETME and returned to Germany with Hk.

 

[muttly]

Kind of hard. The AK is kind of a medium, the AR a light and the HK or FAL is a heavy.
They are different beasts. If you go by numbers made I would go with the AR.

 

[hagaricus]

Basically anything equivalent was killed by the west choosing to stick with a full-power cartridge. Certainly the proto-G3's klem mentions are a good fit, being pressed-steel direct descendants of the sturmgewehr. The AK had to abandon their sheet metal receiver until the AKM so milled-vs-milled the original FN-FAL prototype in 8x33 (or even 280 british) from the same period would also be a candidate.

 

[hagaricus]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrBImq0E9ok


sortof relevant

 

[klem]

Vorgrimer his model was not accepted for Further Development so he was associated with the work on the Loeffler model as a co-designer of the weapon which initially is the Loeffler project apparently this second position in the CEAM did not arrange it, then this was the departure for Spain at the CETME.

 

[uk 75]

This subject still fascinates me.

After the war East Germany did inherit and use some wartime Sturmgewehr 44 weapons (similar to the AK47).

West Germany on the other hand, influenced by the US and bound by NATO used the FAL and then the G3 developed from the CETME.

In comparison with the Warsaw Pact and its allies with the AK family NATO seems all over the place in the rifles it used.

The G3 was in service right up to the end of the Cold War. The futuristic G11 rifle might have replaced it had the Warsaw Pact carried on. As it was the Germans bought the G36 which like the SA80 had issues.

The US dropped its heavy M14 NATO calibre rifle in favour of the M16. But it repeatedly attempted to develop futuristic rifles to replace the M16. A single volume history of these attempts up to today's.M4 would be a fascinating read. There are books on the infividual projects from US publishers but these are costly.

Every Western country came up with its own assault rifle design or so it seems. Israel produced the Galil incorporating AK47 features. France went for its bullpup rifle nicknamed the Bugle.

Russia and China both designed replacements for the AK family. China seems to have been able to issue its bullpup design widely. As we see daily Russia and Ukraine both still rely on the AK family.

 

[Christopher Wang]

For the late 1940s and early 1950s, I would choose the M2 Carbine chambered in .22 Spitfire / MMJ 5.7mm (5.7×33mm) designed by Melvin Maynard Johnson of M1941 Johnson rifle fame.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Finland almost adopted a variant of the Armalite AR-10 chambered in 7.62 x 39mm. Probably the closest Western equivalent to the AK-47, given said variant would have literally used the same ammunition.

 

[Christopher Wang]

Finland almost adopted a variant of the Armalite AR-10 chambered in 7.62 x 39mm. Probably the closest Western equivalent to the AK-47, given said variant would have literally used the same ammunition.

As Ian McCollum explained in his Forgotten Weapons video about the Colt CK901, the ArmaLite AR-10 is a suitable platform for an AR-style assault rifle which could accept 7.62×39mm AK ammunition and magazines due to its larger bolt and receiver compared to the AR-15.

A similar 7.62×39mm conversion is also possible for the Springfield Armory M14 as shown by Ian McCollum in his Forgotten Weapons video about the Norinco M305A, which is a Chinese-copy M14 that has been converted to accept 7.62×39mm AK ammunition and magazines.

 

[Scott Kenny]

This subject still fascinates me.

After the war East Germany did inherit and use some wartime Sturmgewehr 44 weapons (similar to the AK47).

West Germany on the other hand, influenced by the US and bound by NATO used the FAL and then the G3 developed from the CETME.

If we strictly go with "AK = cheap stamped parts intended to be used by conscripts," then the western AK is the G3.

The AR uses pretty expensive machined aircraft grade aluminum forgings so it can be lighter.

 

[asVAL]

AK = cheap, mass-produced-capable, simple to operate and effective.
How about a KP-15 receiver with a simplified upper? 1-pieced stamped hanguard, no dust cover, 11.5 in HBAR and a simplified iron sight assembly? As for optics just toss a short pic rail on it.
Such a rifle would be:

1. cheap. Polymer-casted receiver ( apparently they could be churned out real quick, like it takes a couple minute to mould the entire thing into one full assembly); COTS components etc. A heavy barrel would take little time to machine, and also improve balancing/ recoil control for the user.
2. Manufacturability. Again, polymer casting, and relatively cheap stamping/machining of parts.
3. Ease of use. The AR15 is an extremely popular platform.
4. Reliability: well it's the AR15. Lube it proper and done.

As for historical examples the AR18 would be my take. It was designed to be built from a couple of lathe and tools that even insurgents could get their hand on. IMO it's the closest Western analogue to the AK47 bar purpose-made insurgency/wartime guns like TRW LMR.
Edit: spelling

 

[Scott Kenny]

AK = cheap, mass-produced-capable, simple to operate and effective.
How about a KP-15 receiver with a simplified upper? 1-pieced stamped hanguard, no dust cover, 11.5 in HBAR and a simplified iron sight assembly? As for optics just toss a short pic rail on it.
Such a rifle would be:

1. cheap. Polymer-casted receiver ( apparently they could be churned out real quick, like it takes a couple minute to mould the entire thing into ond full assembly); COTS components etc. A heavy barrel would take little time to machine, and also improve balancing/ recoil control for the user.
2. Manufacturability. Again, polymer casting, and relatively cheap stamping/machining of parts.
3. Ease of use. The AR15 is an extremely popular platform.
4. Reliability: well it's the AR15. Lube it proper and done.

As for historical examples the AR18 would be my take. It was designed to be built from a couple of lathe and tools that even insurgents could get their hand on. IMO it's the closest Western analogue to the AK47 bar purpose-made insurgency/wartime guns like TRW LMR.

That upper is still usually a fairly expensive forging, not a chunk of billet or a stamping that you can crank out in the millions.

It might be possible to make a cheap stamped upper, however. Or maybe even a polymer upper, if you use a short stroke gas piston instead of Stoner DI.

 

[Kat Tsun]

M16s are cheaper than AKs at this point unless you're lucky enough to be one of the former COMECON or PRC with production plants too.

 

[Scott Kenny]

This subject still fascinates me.

After the war East Germany did inherit and use some wartime Sturmgewehr 44 weapons (similar to the AK47).

Point of order, the StG44 is mechanically more like an SKS or SVT-40 than an AK, the StG uses a tilting bolt.

An AK is basically an M1 Garand action turned upside down so you don't have a loop in the op rod to go around the magazine. Long stroke gas piston with a 2 lug rotating bolt.

 

[Kat Tsun]

East Germany with the StG44 derivatives would go wild. Stack it against the G3:



Mauser v. Schmeisser Final Face/Off.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Changes in manufacturing tech is changing what it means to be inexpensive. Used to be that a stamped AK-47 was obviously simpler and cheaper than a milled AR-15. But now, all you need is a solid block of aluminum and a "Zero Percent" Ghost Gunner milling machine. It's not quite *this* simple, but the idea is you plop a block of aluminum in the machine and out pops a fully formed AR-15 lower. This requires very little effort or skill on the part of the guy making the AR-15... certainly less than it would take to manually stamp an AK.

https://ghostgunner.net/zero-percent/

Everyone should have a Ghost Gunner, or equivalent CNC milling tech. If local laws preclude you from having this manufacturing technology, then you know you live in a totalitarian state where you *need* this manufacturing technology.

 

[paralay]

M16s are cheaper than AKs at this point unless you're lucky enough to be one of the former COMECON or PRC with production plants too.

For what amount can a civilian legally buy an M16 or an AR15?
In Russia, a 5.45 caliber rifle corresponding to the latest generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifle costs $ 954

 

[Kiltonge]

The AR-18 probably qualifies, the receivers being entirely stamped. The only machining required was for the bolt, bolt carrier, recoil springs and barrel.

 

[Kat Tsun]

For what amount can a civilian legally buy an M16 or an AR15?
In Russia, a 5.45 caliber rifle corresponding to the latest generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifle costs $ 954

Roughly half that for something similar to an M4 the U.S. Army, albeit semi-automatic, for a Palmetto State Armory PA-15 or something. They run around $550 USD. Government contracts in absolute money haven't increased since the 60s, AFAIK it still hovers around $150-170 for a USG rifle, too.

I think at some point in the hundreds or thousands of thousands, the scale would tip back to the AK, though.

 

[paralay]

For a private person?

 

[hagaricus]

The price of AKs vs ARs in the US is a commercial artifact, largely due to volume and import restrictions. If we compare factory-gate prices of mass-produced versions of the 2 guns, the AK still comes out significantly cheaper.

 

[Scott Kenny]

For what amount can a civilian legally buy an M16 or an AR15?
In Russia, a 5.45 caliber rifle corresponding to the latest generation of the Kalashnikov assault rifle costs $ 954

For a decent quality, $550-950. If you're paying much more than that you're paying for the roll-stamp of the maker's name. I think I paid $1200 for my retro CAR-15, equivalent to 1960s XM-177E2.

 

[Kat Tsun]

For a private person?

Well, I was wrong about the government price, it was $150-ish back in the '60's, and quickly dropped to around $100 or so by the '70's. It's been holding around there since then, with tick ups for inflation. So $550 to $650 is for both private citizens and the Federal government.

Colt may have been higher per unit, but FN apparently charges around $650 for M4s as of 2013. These contracts are usually done in 5 year blocks I think.

Army Awards New M4/M4A1 Contract to FN

www.military.com

$77 mn for delivery of up to 120,000 rifles works out to ~$642.

But yeah, a private person can get a decent AR for $550 or so: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-pa15-16-nitride-m4-carbine-556-nato-moe-ar15-rifle-od-green.html

The price of AKs vs ARs in the US is a commercial artifact, largely due to volume and import restrictions. If we compare factory-gate prices of mass-produced versions of the 2 guns, the AK still comes out significantly cheaper.

I guess it depends on the AK. FN can make M4s for 2/3rd's the price of a AK-12 going by Paralay's cost, but AK-12 can probably be produced in larger numbers, faster. Some time ago, the M4 used to cost $1,200 per unit for a brief period, but that's what the M16A1 cost back in 1967 if you adjust for inflation.

I'm not sure either military would notice the difference at the end of the day.

 

[Orionblamblam]

For a private person?

Sure. You can get a new AR-platform rifles in the $300 range, though these days they generally start about $400. The price quickly goes up when you go to better manufacturers and start adding accessories. It would hardly be unusual for all the other *stuff* to cost far more than the weapon itself.

For instance, I shudder to imagine what *this* costs:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1717571662143467822

View: https://twitter.com/WarPath2pt0/status/1717571662143467822


Actually, don't imagine. It's ten grand. You could get 20 AR's for that.

 

[paralay]

The Russian Ministry of Defense buys the AK-12 for less than $430
The AR-15 was sold in Russia from $ 1,600. Now it's probably not cheaper to find 2700 dollars

 

[Scott Kenny]

The Russian Ministry of Defense buys the AK-12 for less than $430

Sounds about right. Once you have the stamping dies made, you can crank out a LOT of rifles for cheap. And IIRC there's not much different about the stamped parts of an AK12 versus an AK74.

I mean, the only reason a G3 costs so much is the HK rollmark. A CETME rifle or one of the HK clones is about half the cost of the HK.

The AR-15 was sold in Russia from $ 1,600. Now it's probably not cheaper to find 2700 dollars

If it was made there you could probably get one cheaper. No imported parts but maybe magazines.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The Russian Ministry of Defense buys the AK-12 for less than $430
The AR-15 was sold in Russia from $ 1,600. Now it's probably not cheaper to find 2700 dollars

I'm sure you could get some much cheaper Chinese AR-15 knockoffs. Sure, they'd blow up in your face on the third round because the materials called out in the manufacturing plan are just *suggestions*...

 

[Orionblamblam]

For example, this ad arrived in my email today:




Seems weird to me that ARs are cheaper than AKs these days, but here we are.

 

[hagaricus]

For example, this ad arrived in my email today:

View attachment 710533


Seems weird to me that ARs are cheaper than AKs these days, but here we are.

Trust you to find a wierdo gun with a short gas system on a 16" barrel...

 

[Scott Kenny]

Seems weird to me that ARs are cheaper than AKs these days, but here we are.

I mean, the lower gets made from a $50 chunk of aluminum if you're okay with billet pieces instead of forgings.

Edit: and the upper can be made from a $25 block of aluminum...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Trust you to find a wierdo gun with a short gas system on a 16" barrel...

*All* guns are beautiful in somebodies eyes...

 

[Apophenia]

I mean, the lower gets made from a $50 chunk of aluminum if you're okay with billet pieces instead of forgings.

Edit: and the upper can be made from a $25 block of aluminum...

In the case of that ATI rifle, the lower receiver is made from a polymer (albeit steel-reinforced). It also has a carbon-fibre buffer tube, plastic trigger group, etc.

So, the low weight of the Alpha Maxx relies upon substituting for metals. Its appeals will depend upon whether you think plastics/polymers/composites are the future of military small arms.

Looking at Ukraine's retro trench warfare, I'd say save weight on infantry kit somewhere besides a rifle that will, invariably, be used in anger as a club at some point. As for the Alpha Maxx, the price and weight have been tailored to a certain sub-set of American civilian shooters. I doubt that any military would ever touch it.

 

[Scott Kenny]

In the case of that ATI rifle, the lower receiver is made from a polymer (albeit steel-reinforced). It also has a carbon-fibre buffer tube, plastic trigger group, etc.

So, the low weight of the Alpha Maxx relies upon substituting for metals. Its appeals will depend upon whether you think plastics/polymers/composites are the future of military small arms.

Looking at Ukraine's retro trench warfare, I'd say save weight on infantry kit somewhere besides a rifle that will, invariably, be used in anger as a club at some point. As for the Alpha Maxx, the price and weight have been tailored to a certain sub-set of American civilian shooters. I doubt that any military would ever touch it.

Surprised that it's low cost with all the materials substituted for metal.

 

[Orionblamblam]

As for the Alpha Maxx, the price and weight have been tailored to a certain sub-set of American civilian shooters. I doubt that any military would ever touch it.

So you're saying it's *not* a "weapon of war," and thus it belongs on our streets? Woo!

But, yeah. Firearms for civilians are meant to be affordable, look appealing, *not* explode and put rounds into targets. Realistically, it's not going to get dropped in the mud or whacked over an invaders head.

 

[riggerrob]

That upper is still usually a fairly expensive forging, not a chunk of billet or a stamping that you can crank out in the millions.

It might be possible to make a cheap stamped upper, however. Or maybe even a polymer upper, if you use a short stroke gas piston instead of Stoner DI.

Tilting bolts (ala. FN FAL) require longer and heavier and more precise upper receivers since the bolt will lock into a recess a cartridge-length or more from the face of the chamber.

OTOH rotating bolts (AK and Armalite) can get by with short, light-weight, barrel-extensions that include the interrupted-thread. That only requires two or three pieces of precision-milled steel. The rest of the gun can be made of cheap, low-temperature polymers that can be injection-molded in a matter of seconds.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Tilting bolts (ala. FN FAL) require longer and heavier and more precise upper receivers since the bolt will lock into a recess a cartridge-length or more from the face of the chamber.

OTOH rotating bolts (AK and Armalite) can get by with short, light-weight, barrel-extensions that include the interrupted-thread. That only requires two or three pieces of precision-milled steel. The rest of the gun can be made of cheap, low-temperature polymers that can be injection-molded in a matter of seconds.

The difference is that the Stoner Direct Impingement system dumps hot gas into the upper receiver, most polymers won't like that at all.

A short stroke gas piston like the AR-18 does not dump hot gas into the upper.

 

[Kat Tsun]

The difference is that the Stoner Direct Impingement system dumps hot gas into the upper receiver, most polymers won't like that at all.

A short stroke gas piston like the AR-18 does not dump hot gas into the upper.

An extruded monolithic upper and injected polymer lower, like Zytel, is the current cutting edge of AR-type rifles AIUI.

Something like the SCAR is the actual way forward, if only because it has very silly long lifespan, but America is too lame to go for it.

A "Western AK" would want to have a very long lifespan, simple maintenance, and be cheap to make. SCAR hits all of these in real terms.

 

[riggerrob]

The difference is that the Stoner Direct Impingement system dumps hot gas into the upper receiver, most polymers won't like that at all.

A short stroke gas piston like the AR-18 does not dump hot gas into the upper.

Before we get too deep into a terminological debate, Stoner’s AR-15 gas system can be built with a loose tolerance metal gas-tube, plus a precisely-machined bolt, plus a precise bolt-carrier, plus a precise barrel-extending extension plus a precise barrel. Wrap the upper receiver in a loose-tolerance, sheet-metal dust-cover.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Trust you to find a wierdo gun with a short gas system on a 16" barrel...

If not for all the legal BS about a barrel shorter than 16", it'd probably have a 14.5" tube.

An extruded monolithic upper and injected polymer lower, like Zytel, is the current cutting edge of AR-type rifles AIUI.

Something like the SCAR is the actual way forward, if only because it has very silly long lifespan, but America is too lame to go for it.

A "Western AK" would want to have a very long lifespan, simple maintenance, and be cheap to make. SCAR hits all of these in real terms.

Have you seen the price of a SCAR? I can buy 4x good ARs for the price of one SCAR! Crud, I can buy 1.5 Colt ARs for the price of one SCAR!

Before we get too deep into a terminological debate, Stoner’s AR-15 gas system can be built with a loose tolerance metal gas-tube, plus a precisely-machined bolt, plus a precise bolt-carrier, plus a precise barrel-extending extension plus a precise barrel. Wrap the upper receiver in a loose-tolerance, sheet-metal dust-cover.

You still need a precise spot to mount the sights to.