Airbus A320 family ASW / MRA / MPA versions

[PMN1]

Given that the B737 has been successfully developed into the P-8 Poseidon for the USN, have there been any studies at looking into the possibility of a MR version of the A320 family?

 

[TinWing]

Indeed, there have been MPA proposals for the A320 family, very similar to the P-8A. Germany's purchase of the 8 surplus Dutch P-3Cs pretty much put an end to any serious effort.....

 

[elmayerle]

Indeed, there have been MPA proposals for the A320 family, very similar to the P-8A. Germany's purchase of the 8 surplus Dutch P-3Cs pretty much put an end to any serious effort.....

Especially since those P-3Cs had just been through a major upgrade and SLEP (Service Life Extension Program) effort.

 

[Thorvic]

Yeap EADS Spain got the rights to do develop the military variants of Airbus, the A330 Tanker and the MR version to replace the Atlantics of Italy & Germany. As Tin Wing said the Germans went with the Dutch Orions as a simpler measure leaving Italy to either soldier on with Atlantic or get used orions from the US until the P8 enters production.

To be honest i alway felt that BAE should have taken that role within Airbus for both the Nimrod replacement and Tanker replacement as the Brits have much greater experience of both roles. But BAE was too busy in the US to take the lead in this area. But Boeings involvement with the BAE Nimrod MRA4 certainly helped them with the P-8 proposal.

 

[PMN1]

To be honest i alway felt that BAE should have taken that role within Airbus for both the Nimrod replacement and Tanker replacement as the Brits have much greater experience of both roles. But BAE was too busy in the US to take the lead in this area. But Boeings involvement with the BAE Nimrod MRA4 certainly helped them with the P-8 proposal.

The less said about Nimrod the better.....

 

[Deino]

Oh what a pitty !

 

[TinWing]

Yeap EADS Spain got the rights to do develop the military variants of Airbus, the A330 Tanker and the MR version to replace the Atlantics of Italy & Germany. As Tin Wing said the Germans went with the Dutch Orions as a simpler measure leaving Italy to either soldier on with Atlantic or get used orions from the US until the P8 enters production.

To be honest i alway felt that BAE should have taken that role within Airbus for both the Nimrod replacement and Tanker replacement as the Brits have much greater experience of both roles. But BAE was too busy in the US to take the lead in this area. But Boeings involvement with the BAE Nimrod MRA4 certainly helped them with the P-8 proposal.

Well there always is the India MPA requirement. The A319 MPA shown in the Flight International graphic represents an improbable longshot, but it is interesting that weapons bay is aft of the wing.

 

[PMN1]

Any specs to go with the drawings - payload etc?

 

[TinWing]

Any specs to go with the drawings - payload etc?

Hmm....I don't remember anything concrete, but FlightGlobal has all of its articles archived. It is a pity that their search function isn't up to Google standards.

 

[hesham]

Oh what a pitty !

Anther artist picture to A320 MPA aircraft.

 

[CammNut]

The Boeing P-8I and a version of the A319 by EADS Casa are finalists in the Indian MPA competition. Interestingly, the Inidan Navy's such-completed "flight evaluation" didn't involve either aircraft as they don't exist.

In the case of the P-8, India evaluated Boeing's ground labs, a leased airline 737-800 flown on representative mission profiles and a US Navy P-3C (the sensors are essentially the same).

In the case of the "A319 MPA", India had to evaluate a leased airline aircraft and a Spanish P-3 upgraded by EADS Casa with its FITS mission system.

Interesting, Lockheed nearly offered an A320 derivative for the US Navy's MMA competition. Apparently the longer landing gear allowed the weapons bay to be mounted under the fuselage, outside the pressure vessel, making for an easier conversion.

Lockheed eventually bid the remanufactured Orion 21, and was beaten by Boeing with the P-8 - a 737NG that needed substantial redesign to get the weapons bay inside the aft fuselage.

 

[TinWing]

Here is a link to images of a powerpoint presentation on the A319 CJ based MPA offered to India:

http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/10/eads-built-mrasw-platforms-on-offer-to.html

 

[Apophenia]

Good stuff -- thanks Tin Wing.

A sideview comparison between the A319 and A320 MPAs ...

 

[fightingirish]

Aerospace Daily & Defense Report: Airbus To Offer A320neo To Military Customers by James Drew on Feb 7, 2018
Edit:
I added a picture as an attachment.
Source: https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status/961585544806445057

 

[fightingirish]

Airbus evaluates an A320neo multi-mission version
The variant - designated A320neo M³A (Modular Multi-Mission Aircraft) - would be designed to fulfill a range of C4ISR roles, including maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare.

Video:
https://youtu.be/faFxUoGt2WU
Source:

https://youtu.be/faFxUoGt2WU

 

[TomcatViP]

Not MPA but still a military derivative of the 320: 6 AWACS for India

India's Defence Ministry, on Thursday, greenlit the development of six new Airborne Early Warning Control (AEW&C or AWACS) planes to be built by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The AWACS will, reportedly, be fitted on modified Airbus A320 jets operated by the national carrier, Air India.

Aatmanirbhar Bharat: Def Min approves Rs 10,500 cr 'eyes in the sky' project: How DRDO's AWACs will boost India's border vigilance | India News

The IAF currently has two indigenously-built Netra and three Israeli-Russian-made PHALCON early warning aircraft as part of its arsenal.

www.timesnownews.com

 

[stealthflanker]

It might look something like this.

I added the antenna and Radar. The model is free from Blendswap by ask13freak

 

[Hobbes]

It looks like this will be a development of the existing radar system on their Netra aircraft:



It's a continuation of an earlier program to acquire Airbus A330s. They looked at installing the system in a 'pancake' radome back then:



but the radar shape hasn't been decided on yet:

Livefist learns that the A320 based AEW&C platform will sport a derivative of the dorsal antenna system fitted on the Netra jets, and not likely a radome solution as has been speculated since the news broke Wednesday. This, however, is still unclear. In the words of a scientist familiar with the program, it will involve “trying past experience with additional features”.

 

[Grey Havoc]

In an interesting development, there now seems to be a dedicated MR version of the A330, based on the MRTT. I suspect the mission systems will be mostly based on those developed for use on the A320neo M3A.

 

[DWG]

In an interesting development, there now seems to be a dedicated MR version of the A330, based on the MRTT. I suspect the mission systems will be mostly based on those developed for use on the A320neo M3A.

That post just seems to be talking about the CC-150 Polaris replacement, which is a tanker-transport, not MR.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The Canadians have been using the CC-150 as something of a poor man's Maritime Reconnaissance platform for some time now, so when I first saw the latest reports, I mistakenly thought that they were now prioritising a replacement for it in this role. But you are right, it is still primarily a tanker replacement they are looking for.

 

[fightingirish]

Looks like, that this project or proposal is dead for the foreseeable future, since I can't see another country stepping in for Germany.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1412416756577095689

View: https://twitter.com/LaTribune/status/1412416756577095689

 

[GTX]

Agreed - how long before we see Aéronavale P-8s?

 

[TomcatViP]

The say is that Dassault's Falcon 10X would be the favorite choice.

 

[Voltzz]

Two page EADS ad for the A320 MPA from 2003 targeted at the joint German/Italian program for the replacement of the Breguet Atlantic
From Wehrtechnik 1/2003

 

[fightingirish]

At Euronaval 2024, Airbus Defense and Space unveiled the A321MPA, a maritime patrol aircraft based on the commercial A321XLR. The company is proposing the new generation MPA to the French Navy for the Atlantique 2 replacement program (PATMAR Future). [...]

Video:

View: https://youtu.be/QY3lEaQi_f0?si=QGGnOcGxACNaISOA

Link:

https://youtu.be/QY3lEaQi_f0?si=QGGnOcGxACNaISOA

I have my doubts, that the French Navy, and any other customer, will choose the Airbus A321MPA. IMHO the French Navy will choose first a MPA based on a Dassault business jet, or second a combine P-8 / E-7 order at Boeing.

Edit: Not conformed, but the French Navy wants to carry the weapons internally in a weapons bay, so that cancels out Dassault.

 

[boxkite]

I took the liberty of taking a few screenshots from the movie you linked.

 

[fightingirish]

Thanks @boxkite, there are also some pictures at X. Unfortunately I have no time to download and attach them to this topic.
One source:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853384453382361323

View: https://x.com/Marsattaqueblog/status/1853384453382361323?t=widOml52H-pNJDmNK_0NwA&s=19

 

[CJGibson]

Here's a stab at a GA. Highly provisional. Can't quite work our how the ASMs are carried.

Chris

 

[TomcatViP]

I am really surprised they haven´t modified the tail plane. With the extra drag, including from boat tail, the extra mass aft of the CG on a swept wing aircraft and the mission profile of the MR, I would have though that ensuring their pilots have an absolute positive stability when the situation requires would have been a priority. Hence enlarging it.
Idem with the stupid giant winglets and the vertical.
Restricting the flight domain scarcely fair well in a military a/c, especially the ones packed with mission specialists out at sea in the far and remote regions of inhabited earth facing hostile fire.

 

[TomcatViP]

@CJGibson : woldn´t the aft belly extra volume be the one where you could include a wb?

 

[fightingirish]

Great work @CJGibson, but if I remember the video from Naval News correctly, the Airbus employee said, that all weapons (torpedoes, AShM, cruise missiles, UAVs etc.) would be carried in that conformal weapons pod under the rear fuselage.
Airbus seems not to modify the wings for carrying AShM etc., since such a modification would cost too much. I think, that was the same reason with the A319/320 MPA concept from the early 2000s.

 

[CJGibson]

I can't see any detail of a weapons bay/doors under rear fuselage so left that blank. Also not sure if that ASM is on the model or behind it.

Also surprised that it doesn’t have the A321Neo cockpit glazing.

Chris

 

[TomcatViP]

Naval News interview of Airbus program Manager confirmed the wb is to be in the rear bulged volume with sliding doors (à la B-70). Also in the interview a good view of the MAD.

(see link above)

 

[timmymagic]

Whats the potential market for this now though? I'm struggling to see beyond a small French buy....

 

[Grey Havoc]

Whats the potential market for this now though? I'm struggling to see beyond a small French buy....

A lot of the potential buyers for the P-8 may have been frightened off by Boeing's ongoing woes, giving Airbus a opportunity.

 

[timmymagic]

A lot of the potential buyers for the P-8 may have been frightened off by Boeing's ongoing woes, giving Airbus a opportunity.

But who are they though? Most of the countries that have a need for a large ASW platform have already purchased P-8 (or P-1). Of the remainder you've got the Netherlands, Portugal, Greece, Chile and Brazil (I'm excluding Pakistan as they've got ATR and France won't risk Indian defence sales...). Brazil is as likely to develop their own based on the C-390 or other Brazilian plane (and ASW isn't really top of their priorities compared to basic MP duties and SAR). Netherlands might want a few...but are more likely to go with P-8 for commonality with Germany and UK. Portugal and Chile are both planning to service life extend their P-3 significantly. Basically outside of Greece I can't see any other potential candidates...and they're surely not going to develop it based on a total buy of 30 aircraft...unless they think there is mileage in a potential Argentinian order....

 

[TomcatViP]

Notice how volume and cooling capability was put immediately forward to describe the plane performances. This might reflect an emphasis from the services (French Navy) in direct contrast to what we know of the planed conversion of the Falcon 10X.
We can foresee an edge with better cargo volume, large weapon bay, larger crew and greater endurance and cooling generation when based on the 321XLR airframe.
Still, FCS reliability and built-in redundancy for that type of plane would certainly play a significant part.

 

[TomS]

I can't see any detail of a weapons bay/doors under rear fuselage so left that blank. Also not sure if that ASM is on the model or behind it.

Also surprised that it doesn’t have the A321Neo cockpit glazing.

Chris

What looks like an ASM under the forward fuselage is actually just a flat section with several blade aerials. Presumably an ELINT pod, or configurable sensor hard point.

Image is a still from the Naval News video.

 

[MrTopaz]

I thought I read in one of these threads that Boeing was letting it be known to potential buyers that they were coming up on last call for production of the P-8? I suppose they could have changed their mind, given Boeing’s recent corporate strategy of face-planting into piles of dog crap, but still. Maybe Boeing’s troubles plus a production line on the verge of slowing down are giving airbus ideas. Assuming I’m remembering correctly and the comment I saw was correct to begin with, and Boeing is looking to move on from P-8.