Advanced ATGM discussion thread

[shin_getter]

Just learnt of this news:

Iran Unveils Own Copy Of Israeli Spike Anti-Tank Guided Missile (Video, Photos)

On July 7, Iran unveiled the ground-launched version of the “Almas” anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) which is a direct copy...

southfront.org

Iran with spike clone? Unlike other 4+th gen ATGM producers mostly falling into the same air power dependent block or noninterventionist, Iran is mixed up in multiple conflicts that could see systems getting used with significant effects.

In other news:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjpSK0-fIFM

HJ-16?
Chinese 4th gen, rumor range up to 10km. Man in the loop Two way datalink with EOIR seeker?

Given that the norks have https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/bulsae-4.htm
What blocks are without access to 4th gen missiles? (oh Russia? insert meme)

 

[shin_getter]

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21stcenturyasianarmsrace.com

New South Korean NLOS ATGM? South Korea already operates Spike NLOS, so this isn't a revolutionary capability. Would be nice to know more about it nonetheless though.

 

[shin_getter]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdlTbGnypd4

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-------------------------

Looking at the current war, a ~30km range class missile can be used to counterbattery 155mm guns. It is likely far less logistically demanding than counterbattery with dumb shells and require less technology than guided artillery shells, and have a more robust killchain with some search capability. Could be useful.

 

[shin_getter]

If the tank isn't already dead, what are the odds of this showing up in Ukraine?

 

[timmymagic]

If the tank isn't already dead, what are the odds of this showing up in Ukraine?

Minimal. Iran's ability to build anything but the simplest weapons in quantity is exactly as constrained as you'd expect an Islamic theocracies to be...

 

[Maro.Kyo]

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View attachment 662285

View attachment 662284

New South Korean NLOS ATGM? South Korea already operates Spike NLOS, so this isn't a revolutionary capability. Would be nice to know more about it nonetheless though.

I'm quite late to answer but anyways. The missile's called Chuhn-guhm (not the official way of writing it but literally how it sounds) and is called Taipers for the export market.

It was developed as a primary ordnance of the LAH armed helicopter, of which more than 200 is planned to be prcured for the ROKA. LAH will be assigned on the corps-level helo wings and will replace aging AH-1S, 500MD and Bo-105 in the inventory. Taipers weighs 35kg and has an effective range of 8km, coupled with dual mode seeker of color and IR CCD.

Most importantly it is wire-guided, with which it could be launched as both LOBL and LOAL, and as you've mentioned, it could be launched on NLOS targets behind the terrain when launched LOAL. Although wire-guided, it is also F&F capable, since the guidance wire could be cutoff from the missile and the launcher any time. This means the operator could choose to transition from man-in-the-loop to F&F at any given moment after launch, be it from the beginning or during middle of the flight.

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1756123767602831570

View: https://twitter.com/AryJeay/status/1756123767602831570?t=YgklJCU0ubBYCPro6N4RLw&s=19

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1780202923567227183

View: https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1780202923567227183

 

[Grey Havoc]

NLAW stocks are likely to be at a premium at this point, given that at the last report new examples were still being practically having to be hand built, thanks to HM Treasury's stupidity back in the day.

 

[BullpupRafale]

View: https://youtu.be/vrlPvTJltJk?si=Wj8pzSKTkRTFPDuc

Honestly not surprised that Red Effect does not read much or do research as if he did he would know that Bulsae translates to Phoenix and Phoenix-4M(Bulsae-4M) was sold to Hamas while original Bulsae-4 was marketed as AT-4MLB in 2008 to military of Myanmar/Burma.

Bulsae-1 is Shmel
Bulsae-2 is Malyutka
Bulsae-3 is Fagot/Konkurs
Bulsae-4 is Bulsae-3 with LBR SACLOS
Bulsae-5 is Kornet

 

[Forest Green]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdDIStn2Kao

 

[tyrin]

Odd concept from EDGE group

 

[Scott Kenny]

Looking at the current war, a ~30km range class missile can be used to counterbattery 155mm guns. It is likely far less logistically demanding than counterbattery with dumb shells and require less technology than guided artillery shells, and have a more robust killchain with some search capability. Could be useful.

That is a very interesting point... Makes for some scary threat models when any given Company-sized mechanized unit can effectively counterbattery.

 

[TomS]

Odd concept from EDGE group
View attachment 759740

View attachment 759741

Continuous wave laser guidance is confusing me. Normally laser illuminators are pulse coded because that's how the missile tells it's aiming at the right laser spot. This weapon seems to be assuming there will be no other spots the right frequency in the missile's field of view, which seems optimistic.

Other than that, this feels like the old NAWC Spike missile. Very light, very cheap and useful for bunker busting or killing light armor but not really for tanks.

 

[tyrin]

Continuous wave laser guidance is confusing me. Normally laser illuminators are pulse coded because that's how the missile tells it's aiming at the right laser spot. This weapon seems to be assuming there will be no other spots the right frequency in the missile's field of view, which seems optimistic.

Other than that, this feels like the old NAWC Spike missile. Very light, very cheap and useful for bunker busting or killing light armor but not really for tanks.

Very well suited for the UAE as the main threat is generally light vehicles, and entrenched enemies. There’s not really a chance of them running into MBTs where they operate.

The guidance is quite odd though, I haven’t seen a lot of ground launched SAL missiles. It does make sense as they rely on drones a lot for warfare and being able to have a drone operator guide a missile for infantry is a useful capability.

Missile would kill a Hilux as well as a Javelin would.

Theres also a concurrent program running at SIATT for a Jav type atgm.


Back in Yemen UAE SF had Kornet teams that targeted Houthis but Kornets are expensive and heavy. As long as you aren’t attacking enemies very far out. Most of their targets were enemy light vehicles and heavy weaponry.

 

[tyrin]

Very compact tube

 

[Big_Zukini]

A telegraph report from 2 days ago claims Ukraine misuses some western weapons and uses improper tactics.

Nato at odds with Ukraine over Soviet-style tactics

British defence sources have accused Zelensky’s troops of wasting expensive weapons and equipment

www.telegraph.co.uk

This could easily be a politically motivated article, as corruption and reselling of aid is a common false narrative against Ukraine. But it's easy to claim Ukraine abandons Javelins when retreating, for practical reasons. The Javelin, although a top attack missile, is still just a line of sight missile. The idea of abandoning a position becomes much more realistic when you can already eyeball the enemy rather than through a video feed.
Sure some loitering munitions can replace a portion of ATGMs, but they're still valuable. It's past time the US develops an ability to NLOS fire an ATGM without using a 3rd party.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The Javelin, although a top attack missile, is still just a line of sight missile.

Can receive off-board targeting info under certain circumstances though, IIRC.

 

[Big_Zukini]

Can receive off-board targeting info under certain circumstances though, IIRC.

Can it LOAL though?

 

[Josh_TN]

Can it LOAL though?

Not that I’m aware. It is strictly a lock LOS weapon to my knowledge.