A German Mini Submarine in Argentina.

[klem]

A One man electric mini German Submarine from ww2. The submarine should be a prototype built in 1938/1939 to the Argentine Navy,was a gift from the German authorities to the Argentine Navy. This submarine was made in 1938 and was imported into Argentina from Germany in 1940 (according to the Navy registers). It is registered in the Argentina National Boat and Ship Register.Removed from Navy Surplus Warehouse it was sold in early 60's to a private owner who restored it.However, this prototype, which at first sight appears to be not listed, should have its sources of information on the German side, and to this end, specialists should investigate it further. (https://www.bronzecannons.net/submarine.html - https://www.milweb.co.uk/webvert/91049)

 

[Aeroengineer1]

I have come across this one a few times. It looks suspiciously like the Delphin submarine from later in the war. The shape and size looks about right, but the time does not make sense. This has very much been modified, and some of the descriptions and other pictures show the internals and some level of modifications. As for the timeline, it could be probable that the paperwork was fudged, but I do not understand why that would happen. Argentina was a popular place for post WWII Germans to come to, and other technical things did make it over there. This is all just circumstantial evidences, but it would be interesting to follow the trail. It would be interesting if someone could reach out and get the current dimensions and then it could be compared to what is the known dimensions for the Delphin. If they are close, then start to get internal pictures and see if further correlations could be made.

The big differences that I can see from the Delphin are that someone added what appears to have been a second thruster in the bow along with external reinforcements in the bow. There is a cage around the bow planes that was not on the Delphin, and the stern appendages are relatively different for the pitch axis. There was some deck that had been added around the entrance, but there does look to be evidence of what would have been the rear fairing behind the bubble.

Some things to support it, it looks like the overall diameter of the hull is on what has been reported to be 1m. It uses the same bubble type dome. It has what seems to be about the right length. It is fashioned from thin metal in an automotive style as was the Delphin. Here is a drawing that I have not been able to track the authenticity of the source material used to create it. It was downloaded originally from a french gov website, and seems to have bad or potentially out of style German on it.




Here is a picture of the Delphin in one of its original configurations.

 

[martinbayer]

Excuse me, but my BS detector is beeping off the charts. The English/German lettering style is definitely way post WW2, the shape looks like a jet age aircraft drop tank, the "cockpit" cupola is a spherical bubble instead of a hydrodynamic fairing, the fins don't match the drawings or the period photograph, the front end shows a tiny propeller shroud without any actual propeller for whatever reason, and the back end has a teeny weeny propeller at best. April fools, anyone? I do love though that the one legible stencil reads "Caution/Vorsicht" - Caveat Emptor...

 

[F.L.]

The English/German lettering style is definitely way post WW2.

Perhaps the restoration was a little inaccurate.

 

[martinbayer]

The English/German lettering style is definitely way post WW2.

Perhaps the restoration was a little inaccurate.

Perhaps (and in my view most likely) it really was no restoration at all, but simply a hoax...

 

[COLDOWN]

Another vehicle from Argentina that ends up in private hands (although it's still better than melted down, burned or abandoned).

 

[Aeroengineer1]

The English/German lettering style is definitely way post WW2.

Perhaps the restoration was a little inaccurate.

Perhaps (and in my view most likely) it really was no restoration at all, but simply a hoax...

If you go to some of the other links, there is more information. You can see that the boat has been heavily modified. You cam see the different "hands" that have worked on it by their different styles of work. I am not saying it is indeed a Delphin, but the initial specs and overall shape put it in the range of possible.

I did an overlay of this drawing vs the hull shape, and found a good match on shape. The position of the bow planes looks to be in relatively the right space axially, but are higher above the waterline than the plans. The dome and its position also differ. It is further aft and is larger than the plans. I need to go back to my Rossler book, but I do remember that there were some variations on this in the design effort.

If this was indeed a Delphin, it would have to be one of the later ones as it does not have the g7 torpedo aft body. As I stated before, the dates do not line up for when the Delphin was designed. It was a late war effort using auto manufacturing techniques rather than ship building. Also against this is that all of the boats were said to have been destroyed before the allies got there. So either it would have had to be technical data that left Germany to Argentina, or the entire boat would have had to have been smuggled out. Tech data would not be hard, physical boat much harder. I have not studied to see if any submarine designers associated with this boat made their way to Argentina or not, so potentially another place to disprove it.

 

[klem]

.

As I stated before, the dates do not line up for when the Delphin was designed.

Taking into account the dates quoted as proven references, this submarine would be anterior to the delphin designs.

 

[publiusr]

I understand the Escobar II class was larger

 

[Aeroengineer1]

For those that are asking why it merits even looking into, here is an overlay of the drawing to the picture. The original hull shape is a pretty close match. As I have said, I believe that there is a lot of extra work that was done beyond "restoration". It may not be the boat, but likely would be worth trying to find out more. To do that, though, one would want to get a better view of the internals and see where ports would have been welded over such as the induction tube, and control penetrations in the rear. If there are no welds/repairs in these areas, then it would be pretty definitive that it is not a Delphin. The fact that it matches the overall shape and dimensions, though is very interesting.

 

[martinbayer]

I would question not just the exact match of the overall shape, let alone any appendices like the cockpit (for lack of a better term), fins, and any propulsive devices, but also of the exact overall dimensions down to the millimeter (and I do know a thing or two about German engineering).

 

[Aeroengineer1]

I would question not just the exact match of the overall shape, let alone any appendices like the cockpit (for lack of a better term), fins, and any propulsive devices, but also of the exact overall dimensions down to the millimeter (and I do know a thing or two about German engineering).

In this case, the drawing that is being used appears to be a post war effort that was done not by Germany. The original drawings are supposed to have been destroyed in advance of the allied invasion.

The other aspect of this is that the boat in its current state has very obviously undergone substantial modifications. It can be seen in the internal pictures that there were some substantial mods as well as even in the external welds.

 

[Barrysubs]

If you go to some of the other links, there is more information. You can see that the boat has been heavily modified. You cam see the different "hands" that have worked on it by their different styles of work. I am not saying it is indeed a Delphin, but the initial specs and overall shape put it in the range of possible.

I did an overlay of this drawing vs the hull shape, and found a good match on shape. The position of the bow planes looks to be in relatively the right space axially, but are higher above the waterline than the plans. The dome and its position also differ. It is further aft and is larger than the plans. I need to go back to my Rossler book, but I do remember that there were some variations on this in the design effort.

If this was indeed a Delphin, it would have to be one of the later ones as it does not have the g7 torpedo aft body. As I stated before, the dates do not line up for when the Delphin was designed. It was a late war effort using auto manufacturing techniques rather than ship building. Also against this is that all of the boats were said to have been destroyed before the allies got there. So either it would have had to be technical data that left Germany to Argentina, or the entire boat would have had to have been smuggled out. Tech data would not be hard, physical boat much harder. I have not studied to see if any submarine designers associated with this boat made their way to Argentina or not, so potentially another place to disprove it.

Hi. Do you have any details/images of the interior of the Delphin or at least images if items that would have been used ie lighting, steering, seats, batteries, engine, gauges and panels? Anything that helps me construct the interior of a model I'm building. Many thanks

 

[Aeroengineer1]

Hi. Do you have any details/images of the interior of the Delphin or at least images if items that would have been used ie lighting, steering, seats, batteries, engine, gauges and panels? Anything that helps me construct the interior of a model I'm building. Many thanks

I checked my file stash as well as my books on German submarines and I did not find any pictures of the interior of the boat. Sorry I could not help.

 

[Aeroengineer1]

I cannot say for certain, but I came across this when searching for something else. These two designs have a high degree of similarity to one another.

Midget Submarine In Pre-Fab Garden May Explore Sea bed 1000 Feet Down -- Mr. Frank Russell and his baby son Roy take a look at his home-made submarine. Married with two children, Mr. Russell lives in a small pre-fabricated house, and built his under-

Download this stock image: Midget Submarine In Pre-Fab Garden May Explore Sea bed 1000 Feet Down -- Mr. Frank Russell and his baby son Roy take a look at his home-made submarine. Married with two children, Mr. Russell lives in a small pre-fabricated house, and built his under-sea midget in his...

www.alamy.com

 

[klem]

I cannot say for certain, but I came across this when searching for something else. These two designs have a high degree of similarity to one another.
View attachment 735048

No, I doubt it that there could be very close similarities except perhaps for the general appearance and the text clearly states that "Midget Submarine In Pre-Fab" -- "Mr. Frank Russell and his baby son Roy take a look at his home-made submarine." , "he has completed the real thing. October 2, 1949."

 

[Aeroengineer1]

No, I doubt it that there could be very close similarities except perhaps for the general appearance and the text clearly states that "Midget Submarine In Pre-Fab" -- "Mr. Frank Russell and his baby son Roy take a look at his home-made submarine." , "he has completed the real thing. October 2, 1949."

Except if you read the few listings there are for this boat on the internet, none of them actually can show that those original dates are correct of a 1938/39 boat design. All other midget boats that were brought to use for Germany followed a very different progression of design. I am not saying that it is not impossible, but it would have made the development of the Delphin a rather late development when it had already been done before, so why then come back to it so late in the war when a design had already been completed?