60 Years of Roswell Crap Show

[Michel Van]

this is a Critical look Back to 1947
were two events change the World

UFOs...

June 24. 1947 a pilot, Kenneth Arnold saw something he never saw before

he say to reporter "Well, they flew erratic, like a saucer if you skip it across the water."
the reporter brain gets only "Flying Saucer"

but Wat saw Arnold ? this

(art after Arnold Description)
that look more like Flying Wing like Horten Ho IX

or did he saw this a Norton N-9M ?

the Other event happent at Roswell new Mexico
July 8. 1947 the Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) issued a press release stating that personnel from the field's 509th Bomb Group had recovered a crashed "flying disc" from a ranch near Roswell.
then Later the same day, the Commanding General of the Eighth Air Force stated that, in fact, a weather balloon had been recovered by RAAF personnel, rather than a "flying saucer."
the reporter brain gets only "Flying Saucer"

but Wat happen that day ?
one: A B-29 SAC Bomber of 509th with Atombomb crash near Roswell.
two: A Balloon of spy Program MOGUL crash near Roswell.

the next 31 years is quited about that case until
Then, in 1978, ufologist Stanton T. Friedman interviewed Major Jesse Marcel, who was involved with the original recovery of the debris in 1947.

can you remember Wat you did 31 years ago ?

other ufologist notice that near Roswell happen alot of UFO activity back to 1930
in that Year Robert H. Goddard eventually relocated his Rocket Experiments to Roswell, New Mexico !
from WW2 to Today the US Military Test all kind Rocket in White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico
next to ? Roswell ...
they test German V-2 (one Hit in Mexico a Graveyard and US Army has to dig for V-2 Parts and death Body's)
over the years they make over 100000 Top secret missile test day and night
you life next to it you see alot Strange light in Sky...

Things falling from the Sky
from 1950s USAF later NASA starts Drop Test in White Sands Missile Range.
like this one

B-58 Crew ejection capsule , In an unusual test program, live bears were successfully used to test the ejection system at mach 2.1
so you live near Roswell and one day this thing under a parachute, come down from sky.
you run to it look in window and see a knock out Bear...
Wat is your Brain scream? THE MARSIANS ARE COMING !!!

Project Excelsior
in the 1950s, the USAF became increasingly worried about the safety of flight crew who had to eject at high altitude.
before they made Manned test they drop Tests with dummies were ? White Sands Missile Range !

grey men falling from sky, recover by US Army.

NASA made Drop Test in White Sand Missile Range

Parachute test vehicle after drop test on July 16, 1964

Viking Aeroshell drop test in white Sand Missile Range
look like a "Flying Saucer" ;D

a we reach 1978 were ufologist Stanton T. Friedman interviewed Major Jesse Marcel...
"can you remember Wat you dit 31 years ago ...?"
with all that stuff happing at white Sand Missile Range ??

Personally, I think all those test start to meddle in Major Marcel memory to produce the Roswell stuff
or Stanton T. Friedman meddle all to information to sells it as bestseller ?

but there is still one thing

i saw November 29th 1989 one of these
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_(UFO)#The_Belgian_Air_Force_report
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9054/ufobelg.html

still don't know Wat it really was.
fly slow silent over me, the (object's speed at around 50 km/h at that time, after the Report)
later that "plane" chased by 2 x F-16 jets in Brussels airspace
then its Accelerated to 1830 km/h

The Report estimate the size of the object at about 30 to 35 meters at the base, 25 meters long, and about two meters high.
is this a Secret project ?

 

[Orionblamblam]

June 24. 1947 a pilot, Kenneth Arnold saw something he never saw before

Spend enough time in the air, or on the seas, or in forests, or in cities, or on farms, sooner or later you'll see something in the distance that looks bizarre.

can you remember Wat you did 31 years ago ?

Ate fudgesicles and watched Bugs Bunny.

Personally, I think all those test start to meddle in Major Marcel memory to produce the Roswell stuff
or Stanton T. Friedman meddle all to information to sells it as bestseller ?

Bingo. Here, we have three possibilities:
1: Aliens from another star system drove all this way just to have a fenderbender in New Mexico, and Intergalactic AAA wasn't able to get to them before the US Army. Then the US government, the same government that can't keep a secret for three seconds, kept the biggest secret in history for *decades.*
2: One man went kinda screwy.
3: Another man Made Crap Up in order to fool people for profit.

Of these three options, two of them are not only reasonable... they are the sort of things each of us are likely to encounter virtually *daily.*

 

[yasotay]

Harrumph! Orionblamblam is such a spoil-sport


;D

 

[Orionblamblam]

Heroes:

 

[McTodd]

Then the US government, the same government that can't keep a secret for three seconds, kept the biggest secret in history for *decades.*

Whenever I get into an argument with a conspiracist (whether face-to-face or on t'internet), usually over something like the so-called Moon Landing Hoax or the 911 Controlled Demolition or some such, I always remind them that Tricky Dicky Nixon, one of the USA's more devious presidents, couldn't keep a simple hotel burglary secret for more than about a fortnight, so how well could the guvmint have covered-up a faked moon landing etc.?

Never shuts up the die-hards, of course, because conspiracism is a religion, and you can't reason with blind faith. Good fun, though.

 

[flateric]

OK, original Arnold report and AVRO Project Y

 

[McTodd]

Very, very interesting, flateric!

 

[Matej]

Hehe, this was my first really big research project in aviation. Its a pitty (for you), that the results are in Slovak language. However, you can enjoy at least pictures (IE6/7):

http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/roswell.htm
http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/UFOpreprava.htm

 

[flateric]

Hands off, Matej, you are the best as always)

 

[Stormbreaker]

It's easy to ridicule the Roswell Incident and much of what's been said about it is total nonsense. But the fact is that something very unusual took place on that Ranch in 1947 and the details were immediately covered up.

Clearly any attempts to link the testing of parachute systems and dummies are wrong as these took place many years later. As I recall, they were utilised by the USAF during the 1990s in a clumsy attempt to provide explanations for some of what had took place.

Lets not forget that it was the USAAF who announced that they had captured a flying saucer and they are solely responsible for generating this entire story, whatever the truth might be.

Perhaps a B-29 carrying a nuke crashed? Perhaps there had been an attempt to launch a manned V-2 from White Sands that went wrong. I've no more idea than anyone else what happened, but a balloon system called Mogul? Give me a break, it's almost as unlikely as aliens.

 

[flateric]

What wrong with Mogul? Quite appropriate version - unusual stuff, so secret that one of USAF detachment just didn't know of its existence. Mogul was quite real program - Soviet Air Defence veterans have much to tell of these damn balloons.

 

[Stormbreaker]

Superficially, Mogul seems like an interesting idea, but it didn't detect any Soviet nuclear tests and the technology was rather primitive and possibly unworkable. The Mogul balloon launches were later discovered and hyped up by the USAF who used one of them as a very convenient explaination for whatever the Roswell Incident was. I simply don't believe, that Mogul was of any real importance or connected to this incident and its hardly surprising that most of the conspiracy buffs thought it was a joke!

 

[sferrin]

Superficially, Mogul seems like an interesting idea, but it didn't detect any Soviet nuclear tests and the technology was rather primitive and possibly unworkable. The Mogul balloon launches were later discovered and hyped up by the USAF who used one of them as a very convenient explaination for whatever the Roswell Incident was. I simply don't believe, that Mogul was of any real importance or connected to this incident and its hardly surprising that most of the conspiracy buffs thought it was a joke!

So what exactly are you saying? Do you think they dissected aliens at Area 51 or something?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Do you think they dissected aliens at Area 51 or something?

Of *course* they did! Here's photographic proof:

 

[Matej]

I simply don't believe, that Mogul was of any real importance or connected to this incident and its hardly surprising that most of the conspiracy buffs thought it was a joke!

Well, you forgot one very very important thing. You are trying to find the best (for you) possible explanation and in your opinion, manned V-2 or nuke B-29 sounds better than project Mogul.

BUT,

you forgot, for what do you want to find the explanation. You are trying to explain mostly the description of the farmers! Yes, farmers, for which the peak of technological progress of that era was the potatoes scrapers. It is a very frequent mistake, often seen in statistics - to use the the best sophisticated, exact and objective procedures to process the inaccurate and carelessly sh** database. After that, the output of such research looks how it looks. So if you want to find the real truth as best as possible, please start not after, but before the description from the people that were there.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

US Air Force reports:

Roswell Report
http://www.gl.iit.edu/wadc/history/Roswell/Report/fullreport.pdf

Roswell: Case Closed
http://www.gl.iit.edu/wadc/history/Roswell/roswell.pdf

 

[Stormbreaker]

I doubt if anyone knows the real truth outside the USAF. But the fact remains that there was a major cover-up and the government lied about whatever happened at Roswell and then stonewalled over the issue for decades. So what was the big deal?

So much crap has been written about Roswell that its completely muddied the waters and that's perhaps why so many people have lost interest in this story.

But, hands up anyone who believes any of the official reports into this incident!

 

[Michel Van]

there was in Popular Mechanics November 2000
a article about this

they claim this crash near Roswell
http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/?file=PMsaucer

America’s nuclear flying saucer was a Lenticular Reentry Vehicle
i have my doubts about that
in 1947 was the Space technology not so fare for that !

Hehe, this was my first really big research project in aviation. Its a pitty (for you), that the results are in Slovak language. However, you can enjoy at least pictures (IE6/7):

http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/roswell.htm
http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/UFOpreprava.htm

who cares its in Slovak language, the picture are Cool ;D

two thing left

OK, original Arnold report and AVRO Project Y

intresting had the US Army a secret project with Lenticular aircraft ??

to Project MOGUL, after a TV Docu about Discovery Spy Sat
MOGUL hab 2 version one for Radioactive scan, two with Cameras (proto U2)
the Camera recovery was easy a timer activate cameras and end of Mission a pirotech cutter
how separate Camera module from Balloon, the Camera module deployed a paracute and land.
the Wind drive the balloon around the world back to USA, so theory in the Practice that happen.

photos of Untouched Siberia forrest ;D
and wind push some Balloon off course so the Time activate the Cutter OVER THE USSR
and Man, the Soviets were very happy about the gratis US Spy technology ;D
so the TV Docu

 

[archipeppe]

Folks, if you are interested in lenticular re-entry vehicles history, I strongly suggest you to check out Mark Wade's site:

http://www.astronautix.com/craftfam/lenicles.htm

It contains a lot of interesting stuff and documents.
It really worths the visit....

 

[Orionblamblam]

But, hands up anyone who believes any of the official reports into this incident!

What's not to believe? What are the options:
1: A Mogul balloon along with a few other fairly mundane events, misinterpretted
2: Super-advanced aircraft tech (in 1947???)
3: Interstellar drunk drivers

Anything else? Ghosts, maybe?

 

[Orionblamblam]

There's also this:

http://www.up-ship.com/models/lrv.htm

 

[Stormbreaker]

I don't really see the connection with lenticular re-entry vehicles and Roswell, especially as the timing is wrong. The Mogul balloon was developed to listen for the acoustic signature of a distant nuclear explosion.

 

[Antonio]

3: Interstellar drunk drivers

;D ;D ;D I love that

 

[archipeppe]

Anything else? Ghosts, maybe?

Can I add an erratic V2 launched by the nearby White Sands test range?
At that times it hosted von Braun supersecret group coming directly from Peenemunde after "Operation Paperclip".
If you have some "alien nazi scientists" covertly operating from your country what better excuse to use "I found some Alien rocketship in my countryard.."???

At first it could be seemed, to Marcel and others, the better way to deceive Soviets to think about German scientists that are continuing the devolopment of their amazing weapons in USA.

Among the others this is the explanation I rather prefer...

 

[Andreas Parsch]

to Project MOGUL, after a TV Docu about Discovery Spy Sat
MOGUL hab 2 version one for Radioactive scan, two with Cameras (proto U2)
the Camera recovery was easy a timer activate cameras and end of Mission a pirotech cutter
how separate Camera module from Balloon, the Camera module deployed a paracute and land.
the Wind drive the balloon around the world back to USA, so theory in the Practice that happen.

photos of Untouched Siberia forrest ;D
and wind push some Balloon off course so the Time activate the Cutter OVER THE USSR
and Man, the Soviets were very happy about the gratis US Spy technology ;D
so the TV Docu

If this "TV Docu" named the balloon reconnaissance flights "MOGUL", then the show was a piece of sh*t ;D!

What you describe in your two paragraphs apparently refers to the WS-119L/Genetrix and WS-461L programs:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ws-119l.html

These programs had nothing to do whatsoever with MOGUL.


Andreas

 

[Andreas Parsch]

Heroes:

[Snipped images of Houdini, Penn&Teller, Randi ...]

Yes, my kind of heroes !

Anyway, back on topic ...

What's not to believe? What are the options:
1: A Mogul balloon along with a few other fairly mundane events, misinterpretted
2: Super-advanced aircraft tech (in 1947???)
3: Interstellar drunk drivers

;D! To summarize my opinion:

If one starts with the hard evidence (instead of the recollections from old men made 30+ years after the fact), you have the photos of Jesse Marcel and the wreckage. That alone should put any speculations about a "spacecraft" to rest! And if you then look at a photo of an ML-307B/AP radar target, the MOGUL explanation begins to make a lot of sense. Then you have the alleged "flower-like hieroglyphs" ... and MOGUL personnel (notably Charles B Moore) recalling that the radar targets were actually made by a toy company which used its supply of material designed for children on the ML-307s as well! Add to this the documented history of the MOGUL flights ... and Bingo!, that's it. And of course it was "covered up" by the USAAF at that time ... simply because MOGUL was TOP SECRET at that time (and not actually declassified until the 1990s, IIRC)!

But how all the various "eye witness accounts" (many of which are better described as second-hand stories) were embellished, twisted and re-interpreted by "ufologists" to fit their pre-conceived "facts" is very interesting (from a psychological standpoint) all by itself :!

Andreas

 

[Stormbreaker]

But the fact remains that the USAAF are responsible for the creating this drama in the first place, because they announced that a flying saucer had been captured on a local ranch.

Just how secret Mogul was remains debatable. It was certainly a very convenient minor project for the USAF to find and pin the blame on, although it is doubtful that this was really the cause of this event. We should remember that the USAF cannot be trusted to tell the truth and will lie whenever necessary. Just consider how the F-117A was totally denied for many years.

As for the aliens, that sells books. The real cause of the Roswell Incident remains unexplained.

 

[Andreas Parsch]

But the fact remains that the USAAF are responsible for the creating this drama in the first place, because they announced that a flying saucer had been captured on a local ranch.

Yes, someone (who didn't know about MOGUL) made a mistake. Which was corrected very soon. So what? And the "drama" you are talking didn't interest anyone until ~30 years later - can't have been much of a drama, I'd say ;D!

Just how secret Mogul was remains debatable.

No, it isn't "debatable"! That MOGUL was TOP SECRET in 1947, and remained classified for several decades, is a fact. And no surprise either, since it had to do with nuclear weapons (in this case, detecting nuclear explosions from far away). Even today, it can be very difficult to have documents about aborted(!) nuclear projects of the 1950s(!) declassified - as I had to learn during my research !

It was certainly a very convenient minor project for the USAF to find and pin the blame on, although it is doubtful that this was really the cause of this event.

The by far most "convenient" thing about MOGUL is that it fits the actual (as opposed to fabricated and distorted) evidence for "Roswell".

We should remember that the USAF cannot be trusted to tell the truth and will lie whenever necessary. Just consider how the F-117A was totally denied for many years.

Leave your strawmen out of this. It wasn't the USAF, who first proposed MOGUL as a possible explanation for the "Roswell Incident". In fact I never ever read the official USAF report on Roswell, because I trust independent researchers much more. And those researchers have made a convincing case for MOGUL. Convincing only, of course, if haven't made up your mind beforehand that the USAF story is false anyway :!

The real cause of the Roswell Incident remains unexplained.

Just out of curiosity: What particular piece of solid evidence (as opposed to countless "testimonials") makes you reject the MOGUL hypothesis?

Andreas

{edited for typos}

 

[Orionblamblam]

Just how secret Mogul was remains debatable.

No, it isn't "debatable"! That MOGUL was TOP SECRET in 1947, and remained classified for several decades, is a fact. And no surprise either, since it had to do with nuclear weapons (in this case, detecting nuclear explosions from far away).

All the more so given the timing. In 1947, the Soviets were supposed to be many years away from developing their own nukes. That was the official US governemnt story. The American populace could rest easy in the knowledge that the US was the sole nuclear power. But here's MOGUL, physical proof that someone thought that maybe, just maybe, the Soviets would crank out a nuke earlier than expected (which, thanks to spies and traitors, turned out to be the case). MOGUL would have been an *embarassment* for the US government had it been made public. I seriously doubt that it would have amounted to much more than that, because what would the Soviets do with the knowledge of balloons with microphones? At the time, burying nukes was not a real option.

 

[Stormbreaker]

Someone working for the USAAF in 1947 - who was totally lacking a brain, made a monumental mistake and launched one of history's biggest alleged conspiracies, perhaps only rivalled by the JFK assassination.

Then the USAAF made a desperate effort to cover up whatever had taken place, but they certainly didn't manage to correct any mistakes and actually made things worse with a hastily cobbled together cover-story. This very intentional deception went on for decades and would have remained secret if a US congressman (who's name escapes me) hadn't made a real big issue of the affair.

I'm sorry, but Mogul was not especially advanced or significant technology and there was no justification in keeping this dead-end program hidden for decades and then trying to pretend it was ultra-secret.

The technique for nuclear test detection that actually worked was airborne sampling and acoustic methods were ruled out at a very early stage.

I'm told that Roswell actually was a fairly big deal in the 1950s, especially within the UFO community, although it was then better known as the Corona Incident. There was a big gap after that, because the bottom fell out of UFO investigation until the X-Files came along.

I also understand that prior to the second USAF report on the Roswell Incident, senior officer within the team approached several well-known UFO investigators asking them for opinions on an equally unlikely explanation involving a classified glider.

Some people may be willing to accept the official explanation for this event and perhaps other mysteries involving the military. Some people probably believe that weapons of mass destruction developed by Saddam's regime justified an incredibly costly open-ended war.

The reality is that most governments and their departments will lie whenever it is necessary and they think they can't get away with it. So with that in mind, I'll keep an open mind on this event, thanks all the same!

 

[Andreas Parsch]

I'm sorry, but Mogul was not especially advanced or significant technology and there was no justification in keeping this dead-end program hidden for decades and then trying to pretend it was ultra-secret.

The technique for nuclear test detection that actually worked was airborne sampling and acoustic methods were ruled out at a very early stage.

Whether it was justified to keep MOGUL classified for such a long time is completely irrelevant. Fact is, it was classified for a long time. As I said, I have direct experience that many things are classified long after any of the technology involved became thoroughly obsolete.

Anyway, believe what you want, I'm out of this. You said some of the Magic Words , which make it clear to me that any further discussion is pointless. If I wanted to engage in such a "discussion", I'd go to ATS instead ;D!

Andreas

 

[flateric]

OK, in my opinion, anyone UFO-addicted would find a spare half of an hour and just look at tiny article of sci-fi giant Stanisław Lem titled "О niczidentyfikowanych objektach latajacych" (Of 'UFOs') Just one page of it.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Someone working for the USAAF in 1947 - who was totally lacking a brain, made a monumental mistake and launched one of history's biggest alleged conspiracies, perhaps only rivalled by the JFK assassination.
...
I'm sorry, but Mogul was not especially advanced or significant technology and there was no justification in keeping this dead-end program hidden for decades and then trying to pretend it was ultra-secret.

Actually, there *was* a very good reason for keeping it classified. Same good reason for acting suspicious about "UFO's." Get people thinking that there jsut might be actual alien Winnebagos zipping around, you'll do a couple things:

1: Anything advanced of bizarre that you actually are flying around can be passed off as a "UFO" (which, technically, it would be, but too many people associate "UFO" with "alien")

2: Build up enough of a "UFO Phenomenon," and you will wrap the whackjobs up good and tight... they will not only associate the advanced aircraft with aliens, they'll also associated Venus, weather ballons and swamp gas with aliens

3: The sheer number of "UFO sightings" will swamp out actual advanced aircraft sightings

4: Boris and Natasha will be *real* hard pressed to separate out the tales of advanced aircraft from the loonies "flying saucer" stories

5: If you're real lucky, the KGB, being the conspiracy-minded, obsessive compulsive, paranoid fruit loops that they are, might *also* buy into the UFO mythos, and will thus divert precious resources from investigating the actual to investigating the fantastical. And if you're *fabulously* lucky, they'll buy into it enough so that the Soviet military will devote actual industrial-scale manpower to trying to spy on and prepare for the US-Romulan-Minbari Alliance.

 

[Orionblamblam]

... find a spare half of an hour and just look at tiny sci-fi giant Stanisław Lem's "О niczidentyfikowanych objektach latajacych" ....

Hel's Belle's, it'd take me half an hour just to *pronounce* that.

 

[flateric]

"...Suppose that there are millions of technical civilizations in our galaxy. Assume further that only one-tenth of all the Galaxy stars are deserving exploration using spacecraft - from the point of view of those civilizations. With this approval, each of the million civilizations should annually send 10,000 spacecrafts for at least one of them to reach the Earth. If civilizations number is less, or not all of them are sending up to 10,000 such machines each year, then one spacecraft will arrive on Earth not annually, but much less frequently. If we assess the density of space civilizations, which SETI considered the most optimistic, the Earth could expect a visit of an Alien probe just every 10,000 years. And if, for example, only 10,000 of them in the Milky Way, each civilization must expel one million vehicles a year for one of them to reach the Earth. Meanwhile, according to the ufology, "unidentified flying objects" are observed every year on Earth for hundreds. That observation drops out, as more cautious ufology adherents do, 'insufficiently reliable cases', because the total number of reported UFOs observations goes up to several thousands a year."

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

You said some of the Magic Words , which make it clear to me that any further discussion is pointless. If I wanted to engage in such a "discussion", I'd go to ATS instead ;D!

Andreas

Oh so true! ;D

Cheers, Jon

 

[SpaceMax]

OK, in my opinion, anyone UFO-addicted would find a spare half of an hour and just look at tiny article of sci-fi giant Stanisław Lem titled "О niczidentyfikowanych objektach latajacych" (Of 'UFOs') Just one page of it.

A Lem work I'm not familiar with, flateric. Does an english translation exist? Do you know where I might find it?
I'm suspecting something in the style of Lems' "His Masters Voice" perhaps?
I'm always looking for additions to my Lem collection!

 

[flateric]

I've tried hard to find English version, but still no success. It's very well known here, in Russia, though...Original title in Polish as I said above, "О niczidentyfikowanych objektach latajacych" and yes, it's quite in style of his philosophic works.

 

[dan_inbox]

Anyway, believe what you want, I'm out of this. You said some of the Magic Words , which make it clear to me that any further discussion is pointless.

Indeed, in spades.

So much for the 'high signal-to-noise' here compared to other forums....

 

[Michel Van]

Stanisław Lem one of best science fiction, philosophical and satirical writer in History

who don't know Lem here some Info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Lem
http://www.lem.pl/cyberiadinfo/english/main.htm

his short story "Weapon Systems of the 21st Century"
was read by guys in Pentagon and they take it very serious in 1980s
they start development of mini Robots, UVA
(story was only Lem satirical look over development in Military technologies )