1980s weapons and the P.1216

Mike Pryce

Mike Pryce

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For those interested in weapons projects, there are some mentioned in my new book on the BAe P.1216 ASTOVL aircraft.

New ones (well, from the 1980s!), not before described, are:

- BAe FLAME multi-role hittile air-air/air-ground

- BAe Advanced Air Launched Anti Armour Weapon (AALAAW - see http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12296.msg120492.html#msg120492)

- BAe ATMS - Advanced Tactical Missile System, a long-range successor to AMRAAM that grew out of FLAME

There's also some material on advanced Skyflash derivatives etc.

The Index (http://www.harrier.org.uk/Images/P1216_index.jpg) gives a fuller list.
 
Hi

There is a large model of the P1216 originally used for evaluating radar returns, now painted and at the Newark Air Museum



harrier said:
For those interested in weapons projects, there are some mentioned in my new book on the BAe P.1216 ASTOVL aircraft.

New ones (well, from the 1980s!), not before described, are:

- BAe FLAME multi-role hittile air-air/air-ground

- BAe Advanced Air Launched Anti Armour Weapon (AALAAW - see http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12296.msg120492.html#msg120492)

- BAe ATMS - Advanced Tactical Missile System, a long-range successor to AMRAAM that grew out of FLAME

There's also some material on advanced Skyflash derivatives etc.

The Index (http://www.harrier.org.uk/Images/P1216_index.jpg) gives a fuller list.
Click to expand...
 
I'm reading the P.1216 book at the moment and came across the BAe FLAME. A brief search turned up very little information on the Web (one brief article in Flight Int. that doesn't carry any specifics). Considering the time frame, it sounds to me like it's a follow-on to SRAAM/Taildog, no?

Also, I saw in the book that SRARM is listed as a derivative of ASRAAM. That makes sense if you consider this photo:
index.php

but there was another missile named SRARM (annoying to have the generic name for the type of missile collide with the project name) with an offset nose, I've always assumed this was related more to Taildog/SRAAM than ASRAAM.
Splitting hairs maybe, but I'd like to find out more.
 
FLAME was BAe Hatfield's UK only bid for the ASRAAM requirement, so came between SRAAM and the later ASRAAM missile.

SRARM was both the picture you posted and the offset nose missile - two versions looked at under the project studies. Hatfield fed in their FLAME work to give the offset nose version.

I have seen some pictures of the FLAME test beds (grainy photocopies though), but the overall missile looked almost identical to the later VSRAAM - http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1729.msg14500.html

And today the same control system, originally used for FLAME ('holistic' control), is also seen on the CAMM missile.
 
Interesting stuff.

On a related note, I've been trying to find out more about SRAAM. The Brooklands Museum doesn't have anything in its archives, would this data still be in BAE's posession?
 
It may be in the BAE Farnborough archives, where much Hatfield material went.
 
While at BAE Brough last week I found out that the FLAME derivative proposed for the ASRAAM requirement was called Ampul (or AMPUL). No idea what that stands for - it was illustrated on a GA of a fighter project, but that's another story!

Ampul was carried in triples on a single central rail. It appears to be identical to the missile shown under the outer wing positions of the BAe ACA mockup in 1982, and the smaller ASRAAM-like missile on single wingtip rails on some P.1216 GAs featured in my book (and the ACA below):

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,169.msg930.html#msg930

index.php
 
Interesting. Could that be the origin for the ASRAAM triple launcher as seen in e.g. 'Modern Air Combat':

Asraam3.jpg
 
I reckon so. However, the 'ASRAAM' shown in the Tornado artwork seems larger than the Ampul under the ACA (compare with SkyFlash). But ASRAAM was both a programme and a missile name so confusion is unsurprising.
 
harrier said:
I reckon so. However, the 'ASRAAM' shown in the Tornado artwork seems larger than the Ampul under the ACA (compare with SkyFlash). But ASRAAM was both a programme and a missile name so confusion is unsurprising.
Click to expand...

That might be partially due to the artwork being ridiculously not to scale. Sidewinder and Sky Flash are certainly not that close in size!
 
Just reading again in „BAe P.1216“ book about the BAe FLAME as a contender to the ASRAAM requirement. Am I right, that it had no warhead and fuse, so relying purely on kinetic energy
to damage the target ? The hittile concept was used in other systems, too, e.g. the Roland ground-to-air missile, but that had a (smaller) warhead to inflict enough damage to the target. As
the FLAME concept didn’t find favor amongst potential users, maybe the reason were fears, that even a hit very likely wouldn’t down an aircraft, but just punching a hole into a non-vital part
of the structure ? VSRAAM is mentioned as a potential anti-AAM missile, where probably just a hit would be sufficient, but in the a/c vs a/c I have doubts.
 
This is the SRAAM twin launcher from http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,178.0.html



index.php

index.php
 
This ACA drawing however has what looks like this AMPUL thing, though only a double launcher.
 

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Harrier said:
It may be in the BAE Farnborough archives, where much Hatfield material went.
Click to expand...


There are loads of draws I believe are full of transparencies of photos from Hatfield at Farnborough but sadly uncatalogued (in 2011)
 
Folks may be interested in this presentation I made last year (but has just gone online):


which was for this event:


The slides show the BAe AALAAW concept from 1986, to AST.1238, as well as the boosted/ramjet Skyflash and the LRAAM concept using FLAME-based hypersonic hittiles from BAe studied to NST6464

The work comes from my PhD and current work mentioned here:

 
Mike Pryce said:
FLAME was BAe Hatfield's UK only bid for the ASRAAM requirement, so came between SRAAM and the later ASRAAM missile.

SRARM was both the picture you posted and the offset nose missile - two versions looked at under the project studies. Hatfield fed in their FLAME work to give the offset nose version.

I have seen some pictures of the FLAME test beds (grainy photocopies though), but the overall missile looked almost identical to the later VSRAAM - http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1729.msg14500.html

And today the same control system, originally used for FLAME ('holistic' control), is also seen on the CAMM missile.
Click to expand...
I went to Hatfield in the 1980s, with Jeff Jones (Westland's Research Director) for a briefing on FLAME. This was the only time when I travelled to and from a meeting in the corporate Agusta 109. At the time, there was mention in UK LAH requirements about helicopter self defence against air threats. I got the impression that this had resulted in an invitation to Westland to this briefing, but the weapon seemed immature at the time - certainly, Jeff Jones was lukewarm about it after the meeting.
I had it in my mind that the hosts were Hawker Siddeley Dynamics, but given the date, by then it would have been BAe Dynamics, of course.
 
FLAME - I remember it as being an HVM with kinetic kill capability. I subsequently (when working with BAe) went to similar briefings on Starstreak at Shorts in Belfast.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
This ACA drawing however has what looks like this AMPUL thing, though only a double launcher.
Click to expand...

Looking at AMPUL...could that be the basis of the SRARM? It always looked too 'chunky' to have come directly out of the SRAAM work. By the looks of it the timeline seems to work out as well.
 

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