1936 Cierva-FW and alternative helicopter history

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

Starting point

Juan de la Cierva had already decided to continue his work motorizing the gyroplane's rotor. He misses his flight at Croydon which crashes in December 1936 because his car has a flat tire. He travels on the next flight, meets with Focke, and together they design and develop two helicopters: one attack, CFW-8 Matador, another CFW-47 Nomada troop transport.

In 1940, Germany launches an airborne attack on England with 1,000 pairs of attack/transport helicopters, and invades England in two weeks. Nazi party in UK governs, aligns with germany and operation barbarossa is planned including the british army.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Wholly implausible Batman! Which according to Google Translate is ¡Batman totalmente inverosímil!

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

They're not going to develop those types quickly enough to have 1,000 of each in service in the summer of 1940. How many fully equipped troops would CFW-47 Nomada troop transport be able to carry?

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

They're not going to develop those types quickly enough to have 1,000 of each in service in the summer of 1940.
Why not? Foche said that with the help of Juan de la Cierva he could have developed the helicopter much earlier. And he already had the FW-61 operational in the summer of 1936.


How many fully equipped troops would CFW-47 Nomada troop transport be able to carry?
I do not know. How about 30, like on a CH-47 Chinook, or Cierva Focke Wulf-47? It would be 30,000 soldiers per trip.

I'm sorry you have such thin skin, this is a what if...? It seems that a simple alternative theory in which the Nazis invade the UK stings a lot. And yet it was about to happen.

 

[JWilly]

Alternate history should be based on physics that's historically plausible. The maximum lift capability of the OTL world's first significant-capacity transport helicopter, Fa 223, in its 1940-handbuilt-prototype configuration (i.e. V1) would have been about 8 combat-equipped troops. That was the expected capacity of the intended production versions as of 1942, which were nominally unchanged specification-wise from the single 1940 prototype design even though vastly improved.

Historically in 1940 Fa 223 was nowhere near reliable enough for a military operation that would involve a multiple-hour mission with maximum payload, nor ready to manufacture, because the engineers were still learning what tolerances and durabilities were necessary for it to function long enough to be useful for something beyond test flights. But your alternate history can tell us how your alternate design would have worked through each of those challenges much faster.

A heavier-capacity helicopter would have required much more horsepower. That aspect of the Fa 223 was Bramo/BMW's responsibility, and adding another innovative helicopter flight-mechanisms designer to the product would have been irrelevant to that issue. BMW had considerable trouble producing the obsolescent radial engine for Fa 223 with adequate quality, and did not have a more powerful engine design. Possibly a four-rotor version of the Fa 223 design, or some alternate design, could have been built around two engines, but as mentioned BMW had considerable trouble with sufficient engine quality and reliability for helicopter use so requiring two engines per unit would have been twice as hard. But, again, your alternate history can explain to us how BMW overcame that.

 

[JWilly]

As to the 1940 viability of attack helicopters...I'm doubtful. No 1940 helicopter could have had enough payload capacity to be armored to a relevant extent. Their armament likely could not have been more than one or two rifle-caliber MGs and maybe some small aerial bombs. The 1940 British Army had fewer AA weapons than the Germans, but it did have some, and the survivability of a 1940 helicopter against any HMG or 20mm or 40mm autocannon seems bleak. And, the British Army had a large number of rifle-caliber weapons everywhere, which would have had the same effective range as those mounted to the attack helicopters...but those helicopters would have been much more fragile targets than the distributed British Army position the helicopter was engaging.

It seems certain to me that a 1940 helicopter-borne infantry attack would have had to avoid getting within engagement range of any enemy unit, to survive long enough to unload troops and cargo. I don't see how "attack helicopters" would have been useful until payloads became much greater, and I don't see how an alternate history would change that limitation.

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

Wholly implausible Batman! Which according to Google Translate is ¡Batman totalmente inverosímil!

happy New Year

a clarification
Unless omitted, my intention is to publish my comments in both English and Spanish.
Spanish is my mother languaje, common to 1/4 of humanity. English is the international language, as in this forum, which I speak with the average level of incompetence of 100% as the rest of humanity. Neither English nor Spanish are now the exclusive patrimony of their countries of origin.
Indeed, I sometimes use the google translator to help, and I have not read in the forum rules that it is prohibited.
We have territories in Spain that insist on communicating using minority languages, closing themselves off in their own little world. His example has led me to the conclusion that a message in the two most widely used languages on the planet can be read by 90% of humanity, and that is positive in itself.
Another thing is that my message is nonsense. But it will be understood in two languages.


feliz año nuevo

una aclaración por mi parte
Salvo omisión, mi intención es publicar mis comentarios tanto en Inglés como en Español.
El español es mi idioma materno, como el de 1/4 de la humanidad. El inglés es el idioma internacional, como en este foro, que hablo con el nivel de incompetencia medio del 100% de la humanidad. Ni el inglés ni el español son ya patrimonio exclusivo de sus paises de origen.
Efectivamente, utilizo a veces el traductor de google como ayuda, y no he leído en las normas del foro que esté prohibido.
Tenemos en España territorios que insisten en comunicarse usando idiomas minoritarios, encerrandose es su pequeño mundo. Su ejemplo me ha llevado a la conclusión de que un mensaje en los dos idiomas más extensamente utilizados del planeta puede ser leido por el 90% de la humanidad, y éso es positivo por sí mismo.
otra cosa es que mi mensaje sea una tontería. Pero será entendido en dos idiomas.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

feliz año nuevo

¡Igualmente!

FYI I understood about half of the Castilian without having to read the translation as I lived in Spain twice and in between did GCSE Spanish at evening class. One one occasion a Cuban lady that I was talking to in Spanish said to me in English. "I lived in Brighton. You speak Spanish much better than I speak English!"

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I'm sorry you have such thin skin, this is a what if...? It seems that a simple alternative theory in which the Nazis invade the UK stings a lot. And yet it was about to happen.

My skin is very thick.

It isn't a simple alternative theory. I still say there wasn't enough time. Furthermore, even if there was Nazi Germany didn't have the resources, i.e. labour, raw materials and fuel. Therefore, it's hard to do more of one thing without doing less of another. In this case it's building the factories, finding & training the workers, finding the raw materials, finding & training the aircrew & ground crew and last but by no means least finding the aviation fuel. Therefore, what does Germany do less of to make them and operate them?

One could get much the same result with gliders towed by obsolete bombers taken from the training schools. Which is highly implausible rather than wholly implausible. The technology already exists and there's more chance of Germany being able to build them and train the glider pilots without having to do less of something else. However, I don't know whether the training schools had enough obsolete bombers to tow them.

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

feliz año nuevo

¡Igualmente!

Para su información, entendí aproximadamente la mitad del castellano sin tener que leer la traducción, ya que viví en España dos veces y en el medio hice el GCSE de español en la clase vespertina. Una vez una señora cubana con la que estaba hablando en español me dijo en inglés. "Yo viví en Brighton. ¡Hablas español mucho mejor que yo inglés!"

Un abrazo!!!

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

I'm sorry you have such thin skin, this is a what if...? It seems that a simple alternative theory in which the Nazis invade the UK stings a lot. And yet it was about to happen.

My skin is very thick.

It isn't a simple alternative theory. I still say there wasn't enough time. Furthermore, even if there was Nazi Germany didn't have the resources, i.e. labour, raw materials and fuel. Therefore, it's hard to do more of one thing without doing less of another. In this case it's building the factories, finding & training the workers, finding the raw materials, finding & training the aircrew & ground crew and last but by no means least finding the aviation fuel. Therefore, what does Germany do less of to make them and operate them?

One could get much the same result with gliders towed by obsolete bombers taken from the training schools. Which is highly implausible rather than wholly implausible. The technology already exists and there's more chance of Germany being able to build them and train the glider pilots without having to do less of something else. However, I don't know whether the training schools had enough obsolete bombers to tow them.

I definitely got carried away with emotion. Let's start again. Erase the 1000 helicopters invading UK.
my what if? is based on the fact that Nazi Germany's development of the helicopter is accelerated for a reason, and they get transport helicopters much earlier, starting in 1936.
Juan de la Cierva had already decided in May 1936 that the next step was to motorize the rotor, once full control of the flight had been developed. The "fathers" of the helicopter (Sikorsky and Focke) said at some point that if they had counted on Juan de la Cierva they would have advanced much faster. My what if? starts when the engineering solutions that Juan de la Cierva could have provided (something already proven: Pitcairn, Weir, and the Japanese and Russian versions of the autogiro) would have replaced the shortage of materials. Or, if the development of the German industry had focused on the helicopter as an assault vehicle, which basically coincides with the blitzkrieg strategy.
That Germany was about 10 years ahead of the rest in aeronautical development is indisputable. If the Luftwaffe had focused on developing long-range bombers, does anyone doubt that they would have bombed the West Coast? The Ju-390? Why no the helicopter?


Definitivamente me deje llevar por la emoción. Volvamos a empezar. Fuera los 1000 helicopteros invadiendo UK.

mi y si? se basa en que el desarrollo en la Alemania Nazi del helicoptero se ve acelerada por una razón, y consiguen helicopteros de transporte mucho antes, empezando en 1936.

Juan de la Cierva ya había decidido en Mayo del 36 que el siguiente paso era motorizar el rotor, una vez desarrollado el control total del vuelo. Los "padres" del helicoptero (Sikorsky y Focke), dijeron en algún momento que si hubieran contado con Juan de la Cierva hubieran avanzado mucho más deprisa. Mi y si? parte de que las soluciones de ingenieria que podría haber aportado Juan de la Cierva (algo ya contrastado: Pitcairn, Weir, y las versiones japonesa y rusa del autogiro) hubieran suplido la carestía de materiales. O bien, si el desarrollo de la industria alemana se hubiera enfocado en el helicoptero como vehículo de asalto, que en el fondo coincide con la estrategia de guerra relampago.

Que Alemania estaba unos 10 años por delante del resto en desarrollo aeronautico es indiscutible. Si la Luftwaffe se hubiese centrado en desarrollar bombarderos de largo alcance, alguien duda que hubiesen bombardeado la costa oeste? El Ju-390?

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

Alternate history should be based on physics that's historically plausible. The maximum lift capability of the OTL world's first significant-capacity transport helicopter, Fa 223, in its 1940-handbuilt-prototype configuration (i.e. V1) would have been about 8 combat-equipped troops. That was the expected capacity of the intended production versions as of 1942, which were nominally unchanged specification-wise from the single 1940 prototype design even though vastly improved.

Historically in 1940 Fa 223 was nowhere near reliable enough for a military operation that would involve a multiple-hour mission with maximum payload, nor ready to manufacture, because the engineers were still learning what tolerances and durabilities were necessary for it to function long enough to be useful for something beyond test flights. But your alternate history can tell us how your alternate design would have worked through each of those challenges much faster.

A heavier-capacity helicopter would have required much more horsepower. That aspect of the Fa 223 was Bramo/BMW's responsibility, and adding another innovative helicopter flight-mechanisms designer to the product would have been irrelevant to that issue. BMW had considerable trouble producing the obsolescent radial engine for Fa 223 with adequate quality, and did not have a more powerful engine design. Possibly a four-rotor version of the Fa 223 design, or some alternate design, could have been built around two engines, but as mentioned BMW had considerable trouble with sufficient engine quality and reliability for helicopter use so requiring two engines per unit would have been twice as hard. But, again, your alternate history can explain to us how BMW overcame that.

thanks for your reply. You consider that there is no significant evolution in 3 long years, from 1937 to 1940. My theory is based on the design evolutions that Juan de la Cierva could have contributed if he was still alive, he would have shortened the evolution terms of the helicopter.

As for BMW's development problems, they could also be eliminated from the alternative theory. There was Hispano Suiza, which by '36 was designing and building much higher quality engines than BMW. Something that Germany certainly valued, much more than the French, as always afflicted with their inferiority complex, to the point of wanting to erase from their history the contribution of a Spanish company and its Swiss engineer to their own aeronautical industry.


Gracias por su respuesta. Usted considera que no hay ninguna evolucion significativa en 3 largos años, desde 1937 a 1940. mi teoría parte de las evoluciones de diseño que Juan de la Cierva podría haber aportado de seguir vivo hubiese acortado los plazos de evolución del helicoptero.

En cuanto a los problemas de desarrollo de BMW, también sepodrían eliminar de la teoría alternativa. Estaba Hispano Suiza, que por el 36 diseñaba y construia motores de mucha mayor calidad que BMW. Cosa que desde luego Alemania valoraba, mucho más que los franceses, como siempre aquejados de su complejo de inferioridad, hasta el punto de querer borrar de su historia la contribucion de una empresa española y su ingeniero suizo a su propia industria aeronautica.

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

As to the 1940 viability of attack helicopters...I'm doubtful. No 1940 helicopter could have had enough payload capacity to be armored to a relevant extent. Their armament likely could not have been more than one or two rifle-caliber MGs and maybe some small aerial bombs. The 1940 British Army had fewer AA weapons than the Germans, but it did have some, and the survivability of a 1940 helicopter against any HMG or 20mm or 40mm autocannon seems bleak. And, the British Army had a large number of rifle-caliber weapons everywhere, which would have had the same effective range as those mounted to the attack helicopters...but those helicopters would have been much more fragile targets than the distributed British Army position the helicopter was engaging.

It seems certain to me that a 1940 helicopter-borne infantry attack would have had to avoid getting within engagement range of any enemy unit, to survive long enough to unload troops and cargo. I don't see how "attack helicopters" would have been useful until payloads became much greater, and I don't see how an alternate history would change that limitation.

I agree. Moving the Huey-Cobra pair from Vietnam to the past, summer of '40, makes no sense: a Bf109 + Ju87 per fictitious helicopter makes the same sense.
What does make sense to me is the possibility of deploying troops without an airport, in 1940, in England. And repeat the trips. And for that, a cargo helicopter, with two or four rotors, could have been the answer.


estoy de acuerdo. trasladar el par Huey-cobra de Vietnam al pasado, verano del 40, no tiene sentido: un Bf109 + Ju87 por helicoptero ficticio tiene el mismo sentido.

Lo que sí tiene sentido para mí es la posibilidad de desplegar tropas sin aeropuerto, en 1940, en Inglaterra. Y repetir los viajes. Y para éso,bun helicoptero de carga, de dos o cuatro rotores, podría haber sido la respuesta

 

[Jemiba]

Not sure where it can be found now, but definitely we had a point in the rules, saying that the forum
language is English. Posting in two languages is not necessary to my opinion.

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

Not sure where it can be found now, but definitely we had a point in the rules, saying that the forum
language is English. Posting in two languages is not necessary to my opinion.

Ok. Thanks

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Part of the Opening Post.

Juan de la Cierva had already decided to continue his work motorizing the gyroplane's rotor. He misses his flight at Croydon which crashes in December 1936 because his car has a flat tire. He travels on the next flight, meets with Focke, and together they design and develop two helicopters...

I suspect that the British Air Ministry would pay him enough money to keep working in the UK. Instead of your suggestion of him working with Focke the Air Ministry has him work with Raoul Hafner.

The result might be that Cierva's British firm produces equivalents to Sikorsky's R-4, R-5 and R-6 helicopters in the second half of World War II.

 

[Hood]

As to the 1940 viability of attack helicopters...I'm doubtful. No 1940 helicopter could have had enough payload capacity to be armored to a relevant extent. Their armament likely could not have been more than one or two rifle-caliber MGs and maybe some small aerial bombs.

Lucky for Britain Raoul Hafner had the situation well in hand with his own attack chopper in the PD.7: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hafner-aircraft.1291/#post-192244

 

[Hood]

Britain wasn't short of helicopter/rotary wing expertise but it didn't have much critical mass beyond being a novelty. Autogiros and helicopters were still low powered and looked like quite odd contraptions. The RAF found some use for them calibrating radar stations but there was no push to use them in the Army co-operation role. The Admiralty in 1938 did release requirements for a naval spotter but the events of 1940 stopped these efforts.

Cierva might have found receptive British cooperation had he lived, both Avro and Westland used his patents - with varying levels of success.

 

[Archibald]

France also used La Cierva autogyros (called C-30s) for artillery spotting (sigh). A total of 70 were procured and build by Lioré&Olivier: LeO, same as the LeO-451 bomber.

 

[JWilly]

You consider that there is no significant evolution in 3 long years, from 1937 to 1940. My theory is based on the design evolutions that Juan de la Cierva could have contributed if he was still alive, he would have shortened the evolution terms of the helicopter.

I certainly think it's interesting to contemplate what Germany might have done in 1940-41 with even 100 earlier-reliable Fa 223's with an 8-combat-soldier capacity, backed up with gliders for supplies, heavier weapons and light vehicles. Or of course your CFW-47, assuming it was comparable to the Fa 223 but effectively 2-3 years earlier.

Or, as mentioned above, maybe JdlC would have remained in Britain and developed an Fa 223 equivalent there, even by 1941-42. One can make the same contemplations about its potential uses on the Allied side. Helicopters, provided by the British to the US Marine Corps, might have been exceedingly useful in the Pacific islands campaign. And, it's possible to envision early development of an Allied-Fa223-equivalent anti-submarine helicopter, able to operate from modified corvettes and freighters rather than escort carriers.

As for BMW's development problems, they could also be eliminated from the alternative theory. There was Hispano Suiza, which by '36 was designing and building much higher quality engines than BMW. Something that Germany certainly valued, much more than the French, as always afflicted with their inferiority complex, to the point of wanting to erase from their history the contribution of a Spanish company and its Swiss engineer to their own aeronautical industry.

The Bramo engine built by BMW was a semi-copy of the not-especially-good Bristol Jupiter. It was retained in production mainly because it was the design engine for a number of older aircraft that still were in German service and periodically needed replacement and maintenance engines. Bramo, and then BMW after they bought Bramo, had insufficient capacity to build many more that their existing run rate.

My guess is that a switch to a different engine would have entailed many engineering issues, and therefore would have taken some time. So it would make sense in your ATL to have that decision made at some point in the latter part of the 1930s...maybe almost immediately after JdlC joined the team.

A possible further advantage of an engine switch would have been that the Bramo was not very fuel efficient, so a different engine might have resulted in greater range even without a tankage increase.

 

[JWilly]

Part of the Opening Post.

Juan de la Cierva had already decided to continue his work motorizing the gyroplane's rotor. He misses his flight at Croydon which crashes in December 1936 because his car has a flat tire. He travels on the next flight, meets with Focke, and together they design and develop two helicopters...

I suspect that the British Air Ministry would pay him enough money to keep working in the UK. Instead of your suggestion of him working with Focke the Air Ministry has him work with Raoul Hafner.

The result might be that Cierva's British firm produces equivalents to Sikorsky's R-4, R-5 and R-6 helicopters in the second half of World War II.

With all due respect to Sikorsky, the R4/5/6 family was of interest, and of some practical use, but really not very comparable militarily to the Fa 223. Perhaps JdlC might have set his sights higher.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

With all due respect to Sikorsky, the R4/5/6 family was of interest, and of some practical use, but really not very comparable militarily to the Fa 223. Perhaps JdlC might have set his sights higher.

I was being conservative.

What I want Cierva to do is develop an equivalent to the Sikorsky Hoverfly & Bristol Sycamore in the first half of the war and a machine in the same class as the S-55 in the second half of the war. However, I didn't suggest it because I thought I'd be accused of being too ambitious.

As far as I know helicopter development in Britain was suspended for the first two-thirds of the war. E.g. Weir stopped on their own accord because they thought their facilities would better serve the war effort doing something else. Hafner was interned and then sent to work at the AFEE.

Cierva won't be interned as an enemy alien but his efforts could well be hampered by lack of Government support 1939-43 due to the UK's limited industrial resources being concentrated on projects that were thought to be more important.

 

[JWilly]

JdlC in the ATL might consider, like Mohaupt but perhaps more successfully, immigrating to USA to do war development. USA had plenty of resources for potentially useful projects.

Mohaupt of course found once he reached USA that, as a non-citizen, he could not get a security clearance to work on a military technology for which he was the Allied-nations pioneer...the direct performer of the key early developmental experiments, the holder of the foundational patents, and the designer of the Edgar Brandt & Company weapons that USA was intending to copy !! Which was quite absurd, but that's a separate story.

JdlC might have hoped to avoid that outcome.

 

[JWilly]

As to the 1940 viability of attack helicopters...I'm doubtful. No 1940 helicopter could have had enough payload capacity to be armored to a relevant extent. Their armament likely could not have been more than one or two rifle-caliber MGs and maybe some small aerial bombs.

Lucky for Britain Raoul Hafner had the situation well in hand with his own attack chopper in the PD.7: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hafner-aircraft.1291/#post-192244

I don't know Hafner's subsequent history in detail, but I'm doubtful that if the war had not intervened, Hafner's twisted-aerofoil fuselage producing counter-torque from rotor downwash would have been successful. The downwash velocity and mass-flow would be highly dependent on air temperature, engine speed, precipitation status and ground effect among other factors...and all of those require a rapid pilot capability to independently adjust counter-torque, which would not exist.

And, the ability to change the facing-direction of the helicopter when in hover and to side-slip/rear-slip are considered crucial in modern use, but the Hafner design would require significant forward speed to change direction via rudder.

And, autorotation as a safety mechanism in the event of engine failure would seem to be unworkable if counter-torque existed only with the engine at full RPMs.

But of course most developmental improvements begin by trying something.

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

thanks to everyone. Now I know I'm in the right forum.

Perhaps sikorsky and jdlc would have collaborated, and the helicopter would have become a useful weapon as early as 1943. Surely the V/STOL concept would be unknown today (and we would have missed the harrier).

By the way the Harrier in the Spanish Navy is called Matador.

But of course the V-22 Osprey would have been ready in 1948, instead of waiting 40 years.

 

[JWilly]

the V-22 Osprey would have been ready in 1948, instead of waiting 40 years.

Heh. You want to try building a tilt-rotor aircraft without a quite powerful flight control computer, with only the pilot running everything?

I think not. 8^)

 

[Archibald]

the V-22 Osprey would have been ready in 1948, instead of waiting 40 years.

Heh. You want to try building a tilt-rotor aircraft without a quite powerful flight control computer, with only the pilot running everything?

I think not. 8^)

Bell XV-3 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Never quite realized before that thing not only was a tiltrotor in 1955, but actually did it with piston engines.

And that one too ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Model_1-G

Tiltrotor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

With all due respect to Sikorsky, the R4/5/6 family was of interest, and of some practical use, but really not very comparable militarily to the Fa 223. Perhaps JdlC might have set his sights higher.

As I said in Post 22 I was being conservative. Certain people have said that some of the suggestions I've made on this forum were fantasies. Therefore, I did not want to make suggestions that others might say were too ambitious or fantasies.

As I understand it British helicopter development from 1945 to 1970 was about a generation behind the USA. For example.

• There was no British equivalent to the R-4/-5/-6 family so the RAF & RN let contracts for 702 Sikorsky helicopters (52 R-4, 500 R-6 & 150 R-5) during World War II which were reduced to 52 R-4s and 26 of the R-6s at the end of the war. Many of the 78 that were delivered remained in their packing cases because they couldn't carry a useful payload and therefore were only useful for trials & training.
• When Sikorsky was building the S-55, Westland was building S-51s under licence and Bristol was building the Sycamore it's equivalent to the S-51.
• When Sikorsky was building the S-58, Westland was building S-55s under licence.
• When Sikorsky was building the S-61, Westland was building S-58s under licence albeit with licence-built T58 turboshafts.
• Westland built S-61s weren't delivered to the FAA until about a decade after the USN received the Sikorsky-built originals.

Merely keeping up with Sikorsky would be a great improvement for the British helicopter industry and the organisations that used its products. So after producing equivalents to the Sikorsky R-4/-5/-6 family in the second half of World War II, say Cierva's firm produces an equivalent to the S-55 in the second half of the 1940s, then a S-58 equivalent in the 1950s and finally a S-61 equivalent that enters service with the RAF & RN in the early 1960s.

 

[JWilly]

The V-22 didn't "wait 40 years". It was in development for 55 years.

 

[Dilandu]

In 1940, Germany launches an airborne attack on England with 1,000 pairs of attack/transport helicopters,

...Losing nearly half of them immediately from RAF fighters and crashes, and landing about 2000 troops without heavy weapons, which are mostly apprehended by Home Defense with ease.

 

[Dilandu]

Foche said that with the help of Juan de la Cierva he could have developed the helicopter much earlier.

Let's just say that Germans were much better known for bombastic claims, than for doing anything practical.

And he already had the FW-61 operational in the summer of 1936.

Yeah, two prototypes.

How many fully equipped troops would CFW-47 Nomada troop transport be able to carry?
I do not know. How about 30, like on a CH-47 Chinook, or Cierva Focke Wulf-47? It would be 30,000 soldiers per trip.

Just a simple question: how many tanks and fighters and bombers Germany would NOT be able to produce, because money and resources would be spent on building a massive helicopter fleet?

 

[Dilandu]

a clarification
Unless omitted, my intention is to publish my comments in both English and Spanish.

Hm, maybe I should publish my comments in both English and Russian then?

Probably no, I'm kinda too lazy to do it)

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

a clarification
Unless omitted, my intention is to publish my comments in both English and Spanish.

Hm, maybe I should publish my comments in both English and Russian then?

Probably no, I'm kinda too lazy to do it)

If you want to do it, it's no problem for me. ;-)

Your ability to translate from Russian to English, being also an expert in aeronautics, has another value for me. I have some books in Russian about the Russian intervention in SCW that I haven't been able to understand. Google translate has its limitations. Do you like to take a look?

 

[Michel Van]

I could start rambeling in German about this, but keep it on english.

to “invade” Britain with 1000 helicopters and Autogyro will not work,
If there is no following landing of troops and heavy equipment like D-DAY,
you can only secure bridge head in England for landing troops !

But with Royal Airforce, Navy and Home forces will make this a brutal operation.
and with slow flying helicopters flew by inexperience German pilots,
(to fly helicopters i mean) the RAF will have easy game…

in end the invasion failed, and British engineers examined the German Helicopters,
While in Berlin a certain Hitler screams:

NEIN, NEIN, NEIN, verrater über alles, schnauf, verdamtes schnitzel, ARRRGR
bring mir da GÖRING !, GÖRING !, GÖRING ! GÖRING ! GÖRING !…

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Wholly implausible Batman! Which according to Google Translate is ¡Batman totalmente inverosímil!

For what it's worth. I apologise for starting this.

I translated it into Spanish because I wanted to emphasize how bad an idea I thought it was.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

@Dilandu and @Michel Van the "Opening Poster" has acknowledged that it's a bad idea. See this extract from Post 11.

I definitely got carried away with emotion. Let's start again. Erase the 1000 helicopters invading UK.

 

[Francisco Martínez Torres]

Wholly implausible Batman! Which according to Google Translate is ¡Batman totalmente inverosímil!

For what it's worth. I apologise for starting this.

I translated it into Spanish because I wanted to emphasize how bad an idea I thought

I apologize too. I have misinterpreted your comment, because I am a proud and irritable Spaniard, always ready to argue. It's my nature and at my age I don't think I'm going to change my attitude.

on the other hand, the rules of the forum dictate the use of English. Good. I hope you'll forgive me if I put something in international Spanish.

Gracias, amigos!!!

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I could start rambling in German about this, but keep it on English.

I advise you not to, because mein Deutsche gramatik ist nicht sehr gut to put it politely (and I didn't put it politely in the first draft). Plus my German spelling isn't much better.

That's interesting though, because due to your screen name being Michel Van rather than Michel Von I presumed that you were Dutch not German.

 

[Archibald]

I can write in French (born) english & spanish (I graduated in University language studies 20 years ago). I can also swear in german, italian, and even japanese (arschlor, porca putana giuda, baka !)

 

[Hood]

I don't know Hafner's subsequent history in detail, but I'm doubtful that if the war had not intervened, Hafner's twisted-aerofoil fuselage producing counter-torque from rotor downwash would have been successful. The downwash velocity and mass-flow would be highly dependent on air temperature, engine speed, precipitation status and ground effect among other factors...and all of those require a rapid pilot capability to independently adjust counter-torque, which would not exist.

I would agree with this. Hafner was being highly optimistic about this layout and I think stability would be horrendous even assuming it didn't corkscrew itself into the ground.

As far as I know helicopter development in Britain was suspended for the first two-thirds of the war. E.g. Weir stopped on their own accord because they thought their facilities would better serve the war effort doing something else. Hafner was interned and then sent to work at the AFEE.

Cierva won't be interned as an enemy alien but his efforts could well be hampered by lack of Government support 1939-43 due to the UK's limited industrial resources being concentrated on projects that were thought to be more important.

Beaverbrook explicitly stopped all work on rotary-wing in his 1940 memo dropping everything but the six key types. Those strands were never picked up again, as you say Hafner ended up at AFEE, doing interesting but questionable work (who the hell really wants a controlled-crashing Valentine!?!).

Weir gave up, but they hadn't seen much return for their efforts thus far. The Sikorsky R-4 changed everything, the FAA wanted them for ASW but couldn't get them quick enough before the U-Boat menace was curbed by other methods (Cats, Libs and Woolworth carriers).
Even if we postulate a restart on helicopters in 1941, its doubtful prototypes would be in the air much before 1943, given the test flying programme needed, its 44 or early 45 before something is operational. The lack of a decent engine is another drawback, the available radials were low powered and needed modifications to work horizontally (oh how Wolseley might have saved the day?). That was another serious bottleneck until the Alvis Leonides was in production after the war and even then it took until the turboshaft (Gnomes = more licenced US tech) until we really had something decent.

Germany seems to have done about the best she could given the priorities and need and what was on hand.