Irish Naval Service / Irish Navy

Grey Havoc

Grey Havoc

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WatcherZero said:
Irelands Defence Minister has proposed tripling the budget to 1.4% of GDP. They have invited costings on the following proposals:
Increase the size of the navy from 6 patrol ships to 12
Build Irelands first airborne early warning radar.
Found an intelligence school with 300 soldiers dedicated to cybersecurity
Renew the armoured car fleet used by the army
Acquire 8 but preferably 12-14 fighters within an operating budget of €100m per year, training would be performed abroad while aircraft maintenance and ground handling would be commercially outsourced (with a €3bn annual defence budget for everything and €100m annual budget for the squadron I don't think they would be getting first hand aircraft).

Irelands current plan was to double defence spending by 2028 and acquiring the early warning radar.

www.irishtimes.com

Costings sought for massive expansion of Irish military including purchase of fighter jets

Proposal to double Naval Service’s fleet and equip Army with modern armoured vehicles
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
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Under the proposals, the Irish Naval Service, which will soon be renamed the Irish Navy, will operate 12 ships, double the fleet. This would give Ireland “a defensive conventional maritime warfighting capability”.
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fishingnews.co.uk

New motor launch for Irish inshore patrols - Fishing News

Ireland’s naval service Reserve has taken delivery of the first of four new motor launches for inshore patrols. Named the Fionnghuala, it will be used for a range of taskings relating to coastal patrols, including inshore fisheries, as well as port security and training. The vessel was built at...
fishingnews.co.uk
Where possible, Irish suppliers were used during the build and fit-out. The Naval Service Reserve, a part-time force involving recruits from all walks of life both in marine and onshore professions, has a current establishment force of 200.


However, there are just over 100 active recruits, who will train with the new fleet. They operate from four bases in Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Limerick, where the motor launches will be stationed.


There are plans to expand the part-time force to a minimum of 400 as part of Ireland’s Commission on Defence Forces report of 2022. The commission also recommended an additional two bases.
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Article is from back in January, these plans may well be overtaken by the growing current panic however.
 
It has nothing to do with Chinese ships.
Retention of staff is primarily due to Irelands 2-tier economy.
There's the corporate-tax induced multi-national company "Book" economy showing Ireland to be extremely wealthy with a high GDP per capita.
Then there's the actual REAL economy where the vast majority of wages are nowhere near the "book" economy, leading to all sorts of issues such as cost-of-living and naval staff not being able to afford housing for them and their families.
This has lead to chronic manpower shortages, with ships being unavailable due to not enough crew.
At one stage, there were crew members living onboard permanently due to housing being unaffordable.
This issue is also impacting technical staff as the article above illustrates.
And this would also affect any combat jet acquisition being theorised about on the other thread unfortunately.

Not to dip into politics here.but it's a mess...but there appears to be a big correction looming...
 
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Dilandu said:
They should just buy patrol ships from China, it would be cheapest and quickest solution.
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In addition to the problems kaiserbill has mentioned, such a procurement would also face severe political headwinds, not only because of concerns over delivery and spare parts / support, but also due to domestic political timebombs continuing to come out of the woodwork such as the 'overseas service stations' scandal.
 
People living aboard OPVs?!? Oof, that's a great way to convince people to NOT SIGN UP, let alone to leave service...

Ireland's defense services are going to have to spend a bunch of money on barracks. Nice barracks, at that. Not just bachelor sailor housing, married housing as well.
 
kaiserbill said:
It has nothing to do with Chinese ships.
Retention of staff is primarily due to Irelands 2-tier economy.
There's the corporate-tax induced multi-national company "Book" economy showing Ireland to be extremely wealthy with a high GDP per capita.
Then there's the actual REAL economy where the vast majority of wages are nowhere near the "book" economy, leading to all sorts of issues such as cost-of-living and naval staff not being able to afford housing for them and their families.
This has lead to chronic manpower shortages, with ships being unavailable due to not enough crew.
At one stage, there were crew members living onboard permanently due to housing being unaffordable.
This issue is also impacting technical staff as the article above illustrates.
And this would also affect any combat jet acquisition being theorised about on the other thread unfortunately.

Not to dip into politics here.but it's a mess...but there appears to be a big correction looming...
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Residential real estate values tend to be driven by the wages of higher income earners, so it's clear that the knowledge economy driven by multinationals is very real. If recruitment and retention has suffered, it's because the private sector economy is booming. That's a good thing. It's hard to retain a skilled electrician to repair a deck gun on a patrol ship if there are superior opportunities in the building trades.

A society needs a prosperous private sector economy. If military recruitment and retention suffers because of historically unprecedented prosperity, all the better for Ireland.
 
Scott Kenny said:
People living aboard OPVs?!? Oof, that's a great way to convince people to NOT SIGN UP, let alone to leave service...

Ireland's defense services are going to have to spend a bunch of money on barracks. Nice barracks, at that. Not just bachelor sailor housing, married housing as well.
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Or better yet, it might be time for Ireland to consider how best to provide SAR, fisheries patrols and constabulary functions. Whether it's a civilian service or contracted out. Or a hybrid model where the fishing sector is subsidized in terms of vessel construction and fuel costs in return for providing reservist service. What is clear is that the current Irish parody of the Royal Navy isn't sustainable without more money. Ireland can have a navy with working Italian 76mm guns. All it takes is a contract for maintence with Leonardo and I have no doubt that technicians would be flown out from Italy in days and local civilian contractors would be recruited and trained in months. Similarly, you could recruit plenty of retired RN, RFA or foreign merchant mariners to fill the ranks. It just takes money.
 
kaiserbill said:
It has nothing to do with Chinese ships.
Retention of staff is primarily due to Irelands 2-tier economy.
There's the corporate-tax induced multi-national company "Book" economy showing Ireland to be extremely wealthy with a high GDP per capita.
Then there's the actual REAL economy where the vast majority of wages are nowhere near the "book" economy, leading to all sorts of issues such as cost-of-living and naval staff not being able to afford housing for them and their families.
This has lead to chronic manpower shortages, with ships being unavailable due to not enough crew.
At one stage, there were crew members living onboard permanently due to housing being unaffordable.
This issue is also impacting technical staff as the article above illustrates.
And this would also affect any combat jet acquisition being theorised about on the other thread unfortunately.

Not to dip into politics here.but it's a mess...but there appears to be a big correction looming...
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As ever things are more "complicated" than that. The Multinationals clearly play a role in the economy and have spending power that the Public Service can't match, an example being an incident in the last couple of years when one of the multinationals bought out the contracts of an entire class of Navy electricians that were in training. It's of course not helped that for the NS and AC in particularly their only bases are either a) in the heart of the pharma sector in Ireland, or b) in the Capital with all the insane housing pressure that brings.

There is also the larger issue of the nature of the Public Service agreements fixing pay rates across the entire system, and given the DF has only recently been allowed to even attend the pay talks, needless to say the challenges of the Retention crisis has gone ignored by Government and the rest of the PS, along with the post Crash pensions changes as well.

The on base Housing issue goes back to issues the department had with "overstayers" at the Curragh, and in typical fashion of the department the solution was to end all base housing. That is since being overturned with planned upgrades to all the bases, Haulbowline has already seen the old stores units being converted into accommodating, with plans already underway for other major upgrades.

As to what might happen in the future, who knows, the Army is being the Army and seemingly would still prefer the other two services cease to exist, while there's still no urgency in Government to put money on anything.
 
Scott Kenny said:
People living aboard OPVs?!? Oof, that's a great way to convince people to NOT SIGN UP, let alone to leave service...

Ireland's defense services are going to have to spend a bunch of money on barracks. Nice barracks, at that. Not just bachelor sailor housing, married housing as well.
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Some of the Army bases they could do that if there was a willingness from the department, for the Navy and AC? Their facilities are limited as is, and earmarked for defence related investment, increasing housing stock there isn't really an option. For the NS they would basically have to set up housing on Cobh or elsewhere in the lower harbour competing with private buyers, and for the AC, buying housing stock in Dublin... forget it.
 
sparky42 said:
Some of the Army bases they could do that if there was a willingness from the department, for the Navy and AC? Their facilities are limited as is, and earmarked for defence related investment, increasing housing stock there isn't really an option. For the NS they would basically have to set up housing on Cobh or elsewhere in the lower harbour competing with private buyers,
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Just because it's not cheap doesn't mean that it doesn't need to happen...

Example: nobody lives onboard a submarine while it's in port in the USN. The crew has barracks rooms. Usually 2-3 dudes sharing a room and two rooms sharing a bathroom.

It's not great but it's not terrible either. Because subs and OPVs don't really meet the general definitions of habitable.


sparky42 said:
and for the AC, buying housing stock in Dublin... forget it.
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Sounds like the Air Corps needs to move to a new airfield.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Just because it's not cheap doesn't mean that it doesn't need to happen...

Example: nobody lives onboard a submarine while it's in port in the USN. The crew has barracks rooms. Usually 2-3 dudes sharing a room and two rooms sharing a bathroom.

It's not great but it's not terrible either. Because subs and OPVs don't really meet the general definitions of habitable.



Sounds like the Air Corps needs to move to a new airfield.
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As I already said, there's investment in the older stock for personnel quarters, but the Naval Base is limited in space and pretty much all the rest of it is either in use or planned for future use. As for family housing off base, politically I can't see it, by and large Irish Governments are not going to open themselves up to sectorial IR disputes. In other words, sure for the numbers in the DF, family housing would be relatively small money, but would open the Government up to similar preexisting demands from the Gardai and then the teachers, and the healthcare sector. At which point you are talking serious money or serious disputes.

As for the AC moving, hence the comments by Harris regarding Shannon (as Baldonnel also can't operate such jets for a variety of reasons), but getting the AC personnel to agree to such a move will be "interesting".
 
sparky42 said:
As to what might happen in the future, who knows, the Army is being the Army and seemingly would still prefer the other two services cease to exist, while there's still no urgency in Government to put money on anything.
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And meanwhile Brussels is rapidly losing what patience it had left with us regarding defence. Oh dear.
 
TinWing said:
Or better yet, it might be time for Ireland to consider how best to provide SAR, fisheries patrols and constabulary functions. Whether it's a civilian service or contracted out. Or a hybrid model where the fishing sector is subsidized in terms of vessel construction and fuel costs in return for providing reservist service. What is clear is that the current Irish parody of the Royal Navy isn't sustainable without more money. Ireland can have a navy with working Italian 76mm guns. All it takes is a contract for maintence with Leonardo and I have no doubt that technicians would be flown out from Italy in days and local civilian contractors would be recruited and trained in months. Similarly, you could recruit plenty of retired RN, RFA or foreign merchant mariners to fill the ranks. It just takes money.
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You act like the NS hasn’t been spending money on global efforts to try and get direct entry recruitment, they have. However for the salaries that are capped under the Public Service agreements they are always going to be at a disadvantage, for example I seem to remember that the pay rate for engineering officers for the Irish marine research service is higher than what the NS is allowed to pay.

As for getting the fishing sector involved… two chances, and that’s assuming you find some of the ones that aren’t breaking the law left right and center.

The Retention crisis has been an issue for decades due to the small size of the NS even at full strength, fixing it isn’t an overnight issue.
 
sparky42 said:
As I already said, there's investment in the older stock for personnel quarters, but the Naval Base is limited in space and pretty much all the rest of it is either in use or planned for future use. As for family housing off base, politically I can't see it, by and large Irish Governments are not going to open themselves up to sectorial IR disputes. In other words, sure for the numbers in the DF, family housing would be relatively small money, but would open the Government up to similar preexisting demands from the Gardai and then the teachers, and the healthcare sector. At which point you are talking serious money or serious disputes.
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"Okay, we will provide you with housing the same size as the berthing onboard the OPVs," as you take several of the loudmouths on a tour of the OPV.

"This is impossible to live in!"

"This OPV berthing is why the Navy gets housing that's not on the ship."

Does Ireland not offer a Basic Allowance for Housing to soldiers for living out in town, not in government-owned barracks? Any extra money above base pay, to cover rent and utilities?



sparky42 said:
As for the AC moving, hence the comments by Harris regarding Shannon (as Baldonnel also can't operate such jets for a variety of reasons), but getting the AC personnel to agree to such a move will be "interesting".
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"Do you want to pay Dublin prices for your house out in town?"
"Can' noone afferd tha!"
"Exactly, that's why the aircraft are moving to somewhere you CAN afford to live out in town."
 
Scott Kenny said:
"Okay, we will provide you with housing the same size as the berthing onboard the OPVs," as you take several of the loudmouths on a tour of the OPV.

"This is impossible to live in!"

"This OPV berthing is why the Navy gets housing that's not on the ship."

Does Ireland not offer a Basic Allowance for Housing to soldiers for living out in town, not in government-owned barracks? Any extra money above base pay, to cover rent and utilities?




"Do you want to pay Dublin prices for your house out in town?"
"Can' noone afferd tha!"
"Exactly, that's why the aircraft are moving to somewhere you CAN afford to live out in town."
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No, there's no allowances for non base accommodation, and there isn't a chance of such because as I pointed out, pretty much every other "Frontline" Union would have the same demand the day it was announced, which quickly runs into big money. There is improvements to the all the base housing, and fr the NS the worst offending hulls (the two ex RN Peacocks) are gone, but at the end of the day the Naval base is an island, limited footprint with the former slag heap out of bounds, and the Basin areas being redeveloped for operations.

As to the AC, they gave enough trouble when they had to rough it down here in Cork when the attempts with Eithne were underway, and when some of the other detachments were shut down. I can imagine younger personnel being willing to move if/when such an opening is created, the older personnel. not likely.
 
sparky42 said:
No, there's no allowances for non base accommodation, and there isn't a chance of such because as I pointed out, pretty much every other "Frontline" Union would have the same demand the day it was announced, which quickly runs into big money.
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And I literally don't get that, the various state and federal government employee unions in the US don't ask for similar things.




sparky42 said:
There is improvements to the all the base housing, and fr the NS the worst offending hulls (the two ex RN Peacocks) are gone, but at the end of the day the Naval base is an island, limited footprint with the former slag heap out of bounds, and the Basin areas being redeveloped for operations.
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[6.3TB of profanity deleted]

Well, that's going to suck.


sparky42 said:
As to the AC, they gave enough trouble when they had to rough it down here in Cork when the attempts with Eithne were underway, and when some of the other detachments were shut down. I can imagine younger personnel being willing to move if/when such an opening is created, the older personnel. not likely.
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They're military, you can just order them to move to where the locals don't hate the noise.

And to where they can afford to live out in town instead of stuck on base.
 
Scott Kenny said:
And I literally don't get that, the various state and federal government employee unions in the US don't ask for similar things.
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The Irish public sector unions had a long history of chasing each other for settlements in IR disputes, so for decades it was basically settle with say the police, for something, then the Firefighters lodge a new demand, and then say the nurses and on and on it went. So since the late 80's the aim for the Government is one overarching national pay deal/agreement with set terms/conditions to try and limit such nightmares. Of course since the DF were legally forbidden from being part of said talks, their issues were ignored by all sides (which has changed now), and like I said for the suggestion of housing allowances, other Unions have already tried that.

Scott Kenny said:
[6.3TB of profanity deleted]

Well, that's going to suck.
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Could be worse, up in Dublin there's an active campaign to get one of the barracks handed over to be developed into Public housing, the politicians pushing it literally have said they don't care about the operational impact, or where the military personnel would need to go.
Scott Kenny said:
They're military, you can just order them to move to where the locals don't hate the noise.

And to where they can afford to live out in town instead of stuck on base.
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Not even sure there is any base housing at Baldonnel, its due to have the military hospital built there but I think all the AC personnel commute. I mean it makes sense, you only have to look at how one of the CASA's had to overfly the entire country to take position on one of the recent Russian ships, but changing culture is "hard"
 
sparky42 said:
The Irish public sector unions had a long history of chasing each other for settlements in IR disputes, so for decades it was basically settle with say the police, for something, then the Firefighters lodge a new demand, and then say the nurses and on and on it went. So since the late 80's the aim for the Government is one overarching national pay deal/agreement with set terms/conditions to try and limit such nightmares. Of course since the DF were legally forbidden from being part of said talks, their issues were ignored by all sides (which has changed now), and like I said for the suggestion of housing allowances, other Unions have already tried that.
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Sounds like there's your shillelagh to beat the other unions about the head and shoulders with.

"You made it so that the Defense Forces were not part of Public Sector Union talks. So any deal with them is automatically for them and them alone, by the laws you pushed for."
 
Ireland is in an unusual position both politically and geographically. It has good historical reasons for distancing itself from the UK and being closer to France.
In reality both UK and France would deny a Russian air or naval threat to Ireland with their own assets.
What Ireland needs is to be able to police its air and sea space in peacetime against a range of intruders.
 
uk 75 said:
Ireland is in an unusual position both politically and geographically. It has good historical reasons for distancing itself from the UK and being closer to France.
In reality both UK and France would deny a Russian air or naval threat to Ireland with their own assets.
What Ireland needs is to be able to police its air and sea space in peacetime against a range of intruders.
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Not wrong, but in reality it’s only really from the 90s onwards that the Irish economy only really starts strengthening enough to be able to afford such capabilities, but at the same time you have the Peace Dividend globally and the GFA domestically. The services have been trying since then to make the case for such capabilities but it’s only since the Commission that the topic is even getting attention, which means any capability growth like fighters or corvettes is still a massive step up for the DF well beyond just the money side of it.
 
I think France and Sweden are well placed to help Ireland. Relations with the UK remain sensitive, though I think cooperation does occur behind the scenes.
 
uk 75 said:
I think France and Sweden are well placed to help Ireland. Relations with the UK remain sensitive, though I think cooperation does occur behind the scenes.
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Oh there's always been interactions between the UK and Ireland, not always positive like post WW2 interventions to prevent arms sales, but mostly benign, even during the Troubles. I mean bare in mind the majority of Naval ships have either been RN surplus or UK built for example.
However at the risk of politics, Brexit has made the UK a less likely supplier, with all the briefings basically suggesting the Government/department have accepted that they simply can't manage the list of procurements for LoA2/3 so its G2G packages that they are looking at, and that's easier within the EU. Hence why it seems France wants the business, ideally all of the orders. We know that KNDS feel confident about getting the Army vehicle order (nobody else has stuck their head up for that, and the Army had a few lads over publicly recently), rumours are that Thales has got the radar order. After that? Rumours upon rumours, how accurate they are is anyone's guess.. What replaces the 139s? Will the MRV crawl out of the hell its been stuck in for 20 years and what will it actually be if it does?
 
Who does Coast Guard work for Ireland? Is that part of Irish Customs?

What about Search and Rescue? Private like the UK or one of the jobs the Coast Guard does like in the US?
 
Scott Kenny said:
Who does Coast Guard work for Ireland? Is that part of Irish Customs?

What about Search and Rescue? Private like the UK or one of the jobs the Coast Guard does like in the US?
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Complicated…
It’s not part of Revenue, it’s part of the department of transport and has no legal powers like even use or customs, it mainly handles SAR in the form of the SAR helicopters (which is a private contract that’s currently a shitshow) but there’s also the RNLI (still attached to the U.K. version) that also does SAR, and the NS and AC also are on call for support as needed and able. It’s a mix of both paid employees of the state and also volunteers.

So yeah, complicated…
 
How about moving this thread to the Bar or Military?
It's not about an unbuilt project.
 
dan_inbox said:
How about moving this thread to the Bar or Military?
It's not about an unbuilt project.
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As this forum section's Moderator I have been wondering myself about this the last few days.
I'm seeing little project content here, this seems to be a general thread about the Irish Naval Service procurement rather than a specific project (the intent to buy is not the same as actually opening an active tender or selecting a design). But I'm content to leave this thread here and see how it goes.
 
Hood said:
As this forum section's Moderator I have been wondering myself about this the last few days.
I'm seeing little project content here, this seems to be a general thread about the Irish Naval Service procurement rather than a specific project (the intent to buy is not the same as actually opening an active tender or selecting a design). But I'm content to leave this thread here and see how it goes.
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Well we could go off on the 20 year MRV what if…
 

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