Trump signs executive order to revitalize US shipbuilding industry

Everybody, calm down, if you don't want this topic to be closed, I don't want to know how this topic leads to the perception of China, but it's clear that it's a little off topic.

May seem a little off yet the whole issue yet China is the largest ship builder in the world. For some reason the administration has decided it will bring a dead industry back just because they think they can.

So starting a trade war is going to put downward pressure on shipping costs and ship building globally because of less trade volume.

Hence, they are very connected, and tariffs will do more damage to the US trying to start this industry than China which already has a solid ship building industry.


Regards,
 
Say, that's a good one! A very good impersonation of a ChiCom shill talking point.
Still you can't deny that the Chinese are improving infrastructure in a lot of African countries, enabling them to create real jobs for a lot of people. Their methodes may be morally doubtful at best, but they are putting real factories, ports and roads on the ground. The Africa of 2025 looks only in the most remote parts or war-torn countries as we remember it from 20-30 years ago. Today there are cities that wouldn't look out of place in other more developed countries. Obesitas has replaced famine in a lot of places...
Local wars in Africa are the reason that people flee to Europe, not hunger or jobs. You might even say that some wars are there just to drive people into Europe....
But thanks again for going offtopic and dragging politics into it.
Please stay on topic and leave your politics at the door.
 
Still you can't deny that the Chinese are improving infrastructure in a lot of African countries, enabling them to create real jobs for a lot of people. Their methodes may be morally doubtful at best, but they are putting real factories, ports and roads on the ground. The Africa of 2025 looks only in the most remote parts or war-torn countries as we remember it from 20-30 years ago.

Tell ya what, let's get something straight from the participants,


Joining Hands to Advance Modernization and Build a Community with a Shared Future
Updated: September 05, 2024 10:52
Keynote Address by H.E. Xi Jinping
President of the People’s Republic of China
At the Opening Ceremony of the Beijing Summit of
The Forum on China-Africa Cooperation

Beijing, September 5, 2024

And connecting to the shipbuilding topic of this thread,


21st July 2023
China a growing port of call for African naval expansion
Sub-Saharan navies have made striking increases in patrol craft, with China increasingly featuring as a warship supplier, as Johannes R. Fischbach explains.
This blog post was first published on the Military Balance+ on 13 July 2023

Sub-Saharan naval forces have been undergoing dramatic and dynamic changes, driven by economic developments and growing maritime security concerns. The Military Balance and Military Balance+ data show that China is playing an increased role in transforming what have largely been modest naval forces. The data also underscores some of the continuing challenges in developing African naval capabilities.
 
Still you can't deny that the Chinese are improving infrastructure in a lot of African countries,
They're improving infrastructure the Europeans built and the Africans allowed to decay into crap. Good luck with that lasting.

The Chinese aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts or some desire to see Africans lifted up. They just want the resources the African ground has.
 
The Chinese aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts or some desire to see Africans lifted up. They just want the resources the African ground has.
Kinda obvious. They are just better in that than USA or EU. Their main advantage here - their leadership could plan for long term goals and much more resistant to lobbying & political manipulations than Western ones.
 
I stand by my earlier point of the only way for the US to actually revitalize their shipbuilding is to nationalize it, invest multiple billions into their now state owned yards and fast track the implementation of reforms with regards to payment and the work climate. Which will not only help to bring new people in, but also retain already skilled workers in the important areas.

The thing is obviously that nationalization would lead to an uproar within the private corporate shill dominated economic landscape in the US, keep in mind they managed to privatize stuff like security and space travel lmao, but it's also an issue with the US political system virtually being reset every 4 years, sometimes 8. Not having to be bothered by such nonsense is obviously something China doesn't have to be bothered with, but in case of the US there is no other option, well there is one but it's unlikely the US will abolish it's democratic system just for shipbuilding. An alternative would be when the American consciousness as a whole is united in the goal of beating the Chinese on the high seas. But as someone here said earlier, the US isn't united in it's goals these days. It is in a broader sense rather fractured and plagued by a multitude of issues that all require solutions, and these solutions should have been there yesterday already. So the second best options remain that the US keeps its shipbuilding on life support and bets on China getting rolled up in some Afghanistan style war somewhere or a demographic collapse.
 
I stand by my earlier point of the only way for the US to actually revitalize their shipbuilding is to nationalize it, invest multiple billions into their now state owned yards and fast track the implementation of reforms with regards to payment and the work climate.

The government could do that *without* nationalizing the industry. It could simply mandate so many ships of such a type, and throw buckets of money at it. In order to keep that from becoming a money pit, it would have to maintain an iron grip on regulations and inspections; and while you can certainly doubt that the government can actually do that... they'd have to do that anyway if they nationalized and did it themselves and wanted to actually succeed.

As for the lack of skilled shipbuilding workers: a problem. A solution: robots.

I'd rather have all-new American vessels entirely made by American robots without a single contractor or union worker, than not have any new American vessels at all.
 
Reform is difficult, it is dangerous, and it is the only way to turn the tide. The only way to change the U.S. shipbuilding industry is to completely cut ties with interest groups and suppress them. I don't know what interests are within the United States, and it remains to be seen whether the reforms will be effective.
 
@Justo Miranda in the 1930s and 40s we had a massive industrial sector that could quickly be converted to producing war materials. Vehicle production lines could be converted to airplane production lines relatively quickly. The skilled labor to bend metal and produce tanks and other vehicles was readily available. Today, the United States has an anemic manufacturing sector.
One thing to remember is that the US corporations were more than willing participants in the loss of US manufacturing, looking for cheap labor with no rights and no workplace protections.
 
One thing to remember is that the US corporations were more than willing participants in the loss of US manufacturing, looking for cheap labor with no rights and no workplace protections.

What you say is true but has nothing to do with getting out of our current mess.

The focus needs to be on what is the best course of action now.
 
The first step in starting the construction of a ship is to remove legal, ecological, fiscal, ideological and political obstacles. Since the elimination cannot be physical, the matter will take time, it will be better to start now. If only we could do the same in Europe, it would be a fabulous business and good news for almost all Europeans, except the eradicable ones.
 
Kinda obvious. They are just better in that than USA or EU. Their main advantage here - their leadership could plan for long term goals and much more resistant to lobbying & political manipulations than Western ones.
What’s more—they don’t have NGOs talking down to them about washing their hands—missionary pests or Greens who want to turn the continent into an ecological plantation. Poachers don’t wear monocles or pith helmets—-but poor tribesmen who can sell a pelt or ivory tusk worth a year’s wages.

Sometimes I wonder if money from the WWF goes for ammunition for extra-judicial democides.

The one thing I will lay at China’s feet is the demand for phony medicinals that puts the poachers lives at hazard to begin with.

Back on topic.

Countries need to produce their own products—self reliance can lower the need for shipping—with most products moving by rail or truck-as it should be.
 
As for the lack of skilled shipbuilding workers: a problem. A solution: robots.

I'd rather have all-new American vessels entirely made by American robots without a single contractor or union worker, than not have any new American vessels at all.

I may be off here, but I think construction through robotics is a process that's very difficult to apply to shipbuilding, due to scale and the nature of constructing the vessel in sections in and out.

So while robotics are a worthwhile investment in the aerospace sector for example, I'm a bit sceptical about marine applications. But feel free to enlighten me when you have examples that prove my assumption wrong.
 
I may be off here, but I think construction through robotics is a process that's very difficult to apply to shipbuilding, due to scale and the nature of constructing the vessel in sections in and out.

Sizable vessels have been constructed with a mix of machines and humans (it could hardly be otherwise). Right now humans cannot be directly replaced with robots. But a year from now? Probably not. Five years? Ten? Someday. There's nothing magical about welding that requires a soul behind the stick.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZIKNUVHhko
 
Sizable vessels have been constructed with a mix of machines and humans (it could hardly be otherwise). Right now humans cannot be directly replaced with robots. But a year from now? Probably not. Five years? Ten? Someday. There's nothing magical about welding that requires a soul behind the stick.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZIKNUVHhko
If robots could square off a dance with IShowSpeed, then welding isn't too far ahead, IMHO.
 
There are already many robots in use in the shipbuilding Industrie. The complex 3d shape of the sheet metal is cut and formed by robots, and quite certainly also welded by robots. The handling, positioning etc. is still done by human operated cranes. A high degree of automatization is difficult to achieve due to the small batch numbers of ships, maybe AI could change that. The problem is, I don’t see how this could make US or any EU country more competitive in shipbuilding. Its nothing which couldn't be done in China either....
 
If Rosie could build three Liberty ships every two days, how long would it take for a team of robots with AI?
 

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I don’t see how this could make US or any EU country more competitive in shipbuilding. Its nothing which couldn't be done in China either....
Labor is a significant fraction of the cost, along with the safety regs and whatnot. But from the vids I've seen, Chinese industry and workers are unfamiliar with safety regs, and they certainly get paid less than Union welders.

And if Chinese robo-workers are good enough and cheap enough to replace Chinese bio-workers... we'll just buy 'em.

it'll be a good while yet before androids can be relied upon to build ships. But once they can.... they can replace our crumbling infrastructure, patrol the borders and, most importantly, get shipped to the Moon, Mars and asteroids to build new American colonies. There should be a LOT of drive to get these things working right.
 
It doesnt have to be Chinese Robots, thes could as well by them in Germany, Japsn or Sweden...
 
it'll be a good while yet before androids can be relied upon to build ships. But once they can.... they can replace our crumbling infrastructure, patrol the borders and, most importantly, get shipped to the Moon, Mars and asteroids to build new American colonies. There should be a LOT of drive to get these things working right.

Pretty sure they will kill us before we get the chance to send them anywhere.

Regards,
 
More fiction. Shipbuilding will commence. The current President is cutting regulations and other red tape. He just signed an executive order to keep coal-fired electricity plants open. Everything is moving forward.

Right now, robots are jut humanoid forklifts.
 
Coal-fired electricity plants... Best idea ever.
In the winter you will pay 5 dollars/KWh instead of 0.3. Thank you for your service!
 
Coal-fired electricity plants... Best idea ever.
In the winter you will pay 5 dollars/KWh instead of 0.3. Thank you for your service!
For every kilowatt generated by coal plants that the West has eliminated over the past twenty years, China has generated two... but the latter do not harm the planet. If we are in a trade war, it will be better to pay more for energy than to pay pensions to the widows of soldiers killed in a real war. In my opinion it is better to pay those five dollars while this situation lasts... and win. Being a pacifist between wars is like being a vegetarian between meals.
 
A piece of paper isn't going to teach brats playing Candy Crush how to weld.

I would, however, take a formal decree from the GOP admitting Reagan was wrong on free trade and that trickle-down was a fraud sold by the chamber of commerce types who wanted to bust unions.

Today's Republicans purport to be more pro-worker. That means they will sign off on living wage laws and not block them, right? All goods Americans buy must be produced here by 2040--otherwise a daisy cutter will drop on the NYSE.

On labor

You`d be surprised what`s possible, took me 4 weeks intensive one-2-one training to go from never welding to this >

A further 12 months of work later, I was actually very good as opposed to having an impressive bit of paper, this was of course
only possible with a world class instructor, I suspect people to teach it properly will be the bottle neck.

1744656516420.png
 
Congrats Calum,
Well done :)
But to be honest you don't seem like a guy who spends a lot of time playing Candy Crush ;)
 
What's tough is that you have to be trained on how to train others. In the 1980 helicopter training film on avoiding snapping your rotor blades off--they had a top-down "camera" showing an animated pilot what to do--as if you were above and behind him--so your right was his right.

You don't see a lot of that in martial arts instruction where you have to flip in your head what the guy in front of you is teaching.

It all can end up like the Three Stooges routine "point to the right.'
 
Congrats Calum,
Well done :)
But to be honest you don't seem like a guy who spends a lot of time playing Candy Crush ;)
That is accurate, I do not even know what a "candy crush" IS (please do not inform me, I am happy with my ignorance of this item)
 
If robots could square off a dance with IShowSpeed, then welding isn't too far ahead, IMHO.
Welding robots are common.

Unless one is building mass quantities of the same design, like the Liberty ships of WWII, a lot of labor-saving methods don't make financial sense. With the likely downturn in international trade, one wonders why building merchan ships is a concern.
 
Welding robots are common.

Unless one is building mass quantities of the same design, like the Liberty ships of WWII, a lot of labor-saving methods don't make financial sense.

Human workers are useful because they, as a group, are general purpose. Robots so far have been pretty much task specific. But the goal is a humanoid robot with advanced enough programming to be able to do most any job a human can. Once we have those, then even if they are a million dollars each they start making sense for any job damn near down to burger flipper. Need another guy on Platform 12? Simply repurpose one that's being otherwise under utilized.

With the likely downturn in international trade, one wonders why building merchan ships is a concern.
The downturn is temporary. The loss of shipbuilding has been long term. And whether it's robowelders or biowelders, recovering that capability for making large numbers of ships translates into other fields. Imagine if we ditched the low-value foreign workers currently building overpriced and underquality houses out of sticks and cardboard, and we started *welding* houses together out of structural steel. In places prone to hurricanes, tornadoes and Mostly Peaceful Protests, such homes would be far, FAR more secure and valuable. Maybe we start cranking out neighborhood-scale modularized miniature nuclear reactor systems by the tens of thousands. That would require a whole lot of welders.
 
The downturn is temporary. The loss of shipbuilding has been long term. And whether it's robowelders or biowelders, recovering that capability for making large numbers of ships translates into other fields. Imagine if we ditched the low-value foreign workers currently building overpriced and underquality houses out of sticks and cardboard, and we started *welding* houses together out of structural steel. In places prone to hurricanes, tornadoes and Mostly Peaceful Protests, such homes would be far, FAR more secure and valuable. Maybe we start cranking out neighborhood-scale modularized miniature nuclear reactor systems by the tens of thousands. That would require a whole lot of welders.
A lot of factories, stores and high rise buildings are all made out of steel and concrete. It costs about the same to build a house out of wood, but the USA keeps building houses out of wood in places where is it just not safe. Why is that?
Those "low-value foreign workers' are building the houses their bosses tell them to build. You can get a storm proof brickhouse that can take a tornade and not move a inch. But most Americans rather want a cheap house, because nothing bad ever happens to them. But bricks are expensive....
The same things with those shiny new ships, sure they are "made in the USA" and everyone should buy them. But even American shipping-companies would rather buy 3 Chinese ships then one USA build ship. They care more about their money then they do about the USA. Every single time.... Trump bought all him MAGA hats in CHINA.... Not even 1 was made in the USA. NOT 1.
 
Welding robots are common.

Unless one is building mass quantities of the same design, like the Liberty ships of WWII, a lot of labor-saving methods don't make financial sense. With the likely downturn in international trade, one wonders why building merchan ships is a concern.
We are in a trade war between China and the US that can last for years before one of the two powers collapses. It would be a very prudent attitude for the Western world to start manufacturing again everything that the Chinese used to make and we buy at a low price, without thinking about the consequences. The use of robots and production in large series would help to lower prices and take much power away from the unions, which were one of the causes of our factories fleeing to China in the eighties and nineties.
 
A lot of factories, stores and high rise buildings are all made out of steel and concrete. It costs about the same to build a house out of wood, but the USA keeps building houses out of wood in places where is it just not safe. Why is that?
Those "low-value foreign workers' are building the houses their bosses tell them to build. You can get a storm proof brickhouse that can take a tornade and not move a inch. But most Americans rather want a cheap house, because nothing bad ever happens to them. But bricks are expensive....
The same things with those shiny new ships, sure they are "made in the USA" and everyone should buy them. But even American shipping-companies would rather buy 3 Chinese ships then one USA build ship. They care more about their money then they do about the USA. Every single time.... Trump bought all him MAGA hats in CHINA.... Not even 1 was made in the USA. NOT 1.
I've wondered that every time I see the devastation of a tornado in the news or the California fires, too. I think the reason is that American children don't read the story of the three little pigs and the wolf.


But it is also true that we Europeans do incredibly stupid things by closing our nuclear power plants, banning agriculture and fishing in Europe and buying those same products from countries without adequate sanitary conditions.
 

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You can get a storm proof brickhouse that can take a tornade and not move a inch. But most Americans rather want a cheap house, because nothing bad ever happens to them.

I've wondered that every time I see the devastation of a tornado in the news

Thing is, the odds of any specific house, or other structure, getting hit by a tornado during the lifetime of that building are very, very, very, low even where I live in tornado alley, or on the fringes of tornado alley, in Missouri, depending which reference and what date.
Odds are something like 5,000 to 1, aka zero point zero two percent, 0.02%, for the lifetime of any specific building in question.

From a Kansas City TV station here's a thing where it shows what states are in Tornado Alley and Dixie Alley,
(originally posted a couple years ago, some content has been updated since posting)


From the Storm Prediction Center and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
is a 25 year average per state per month of how many tornadoes,


A couple weeks ago we had an EF-3 tornado go about 10 to 12 miles from my home.
And we here at my home had 3 different tornado warnings before morning coffee break time.
I know several people who were impacted by that tornado's damage.
While tens of, hundreds of, thousands of the rest of us in the region were not at all impacted.

Tornado damage looks spectacular on TV and gets a strong emotional response.

But the reality is, that given the number of houses in the US, and, the very low probability of any given house, or any other structure, ever getting hit by a tornado,
It is neither practical nor even possible to construct every structure on this continent, or even just the houses, or even just within tornado alley,
in a way they will survive a direct hit from a moderate to severe tornado.

The concept of constructing every house, every building, thusly rates right up there with "The US should have built every B-17 to survive a direct hit from Flak. The US should have built every Sherman tank to deflect a point blank shot from an 88."

And then there is the question of the multiple hundreds of thousands of preexisting structures.
(and then there is the question of whether 'preexisting' is truly a legitimate word, oh well, it gets used anyway)
It is neither practical nor even possible to retrofit all of or even a majority of them to survive direct hits from tornadoes.

Your feelings may be telling you that doing so should happen,NEEDS to happen, but your feelings are not guaranteed to always be realistic and/or rational.
 

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