In my opinion it is not necessary to politicize this debate, the loss of trade routes is only an economic issue. If China loses turnover, it can always sell its container ships when production moves to other countries.
Trump signs executive order to revitalize US shipbuilding industry
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EmoBirb
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Debatable. I don't think either are treated particularly well. In the PRC however the wage landscape is obviously a very different one as well.
EmoBirb
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This is an inherently political topic however. Otherwise the POTUS wouldn't get involved too, lol.
If it was profitable,you would already have bunch of commercial ships running nuclear. But given how you typicaly run any ship with low-paid mixed-bag multinational crews , with nuclear, you can imagine the crew for nuclear ship would be much higher grade
Icebreakers as specific as they operate in areas inaccessible by support ships and need to patrol for extended periods , they also have 'heating' requirements that Nuclear fits well. Russians have lots of Nuclear expertise and build numbers second only to China.
US shipyards have not built a single container ship in 2024 so , its a long way to build anything, let alone nuclear.
China builds more ships per year than US build combined since WW2.
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Hi,
Thanks for the link. The video was interesting though I did notice a couple things. First the narrator stated that the Constellation Class was always intended to have 32 cells of VLS, which isn't technically true. Early in the design process the requirements were for only 16 VLS cells, which was changed during the design competition phase to 32 cells.
Secondly, he talks about NAVSEA as if it is "the" navy whereas it is ony one part of the navy. As such, whie the NAVSEA Admiral leading the FFG(X) program (and the LCS before) is in charge of many things, he is not fully in charge of everything. As such, I'm not sure that it is correct to throw all current issues with the FFG(X) solely on his lap.
Next, he aso criticised the way that the LCS was designed to have contractors do maintenance rather than the crew, but this was all a part the Navy's push for reduced manning. Specifically the ships were designed to have a small Core Crew to run the ship, and that either supplemental crew or contractors would be sent out for maintenance issues. I think that this was either done as part of or in conjunction with the "seaframe" concept, where the ships were intended to be treated similarly to how aircraft are treated, where stuff (like additional weapons and sensors etc) could be added to the base "airframe" or "seaframe"to improve capabiities but that the base (Core) Crew was only expected to conduct the "operations" of the platform with all non-basic maintenance likely being performed "at base", or in some cases by "riders" that come onto the ship when needed.
As such there shouldn't likely be any probem with changing approaches and reverting to a scheme where a larger crew is carried onbaord a ship to meet all operational and underway maintenance requirements, but it will likely require changes to how the Navy plans to reduce onboard manning on ships.
Finally, he also makes some comments about NATO not being a "one-way" transaction, which has aways been true. However, however this seems to imply that its been a one-way street with the US providing benefit to the rest of NATO with little in return when in fact that the only time Article 5 of the treaty has been enacted was after 9-11 when in fact other NATO members provided support to the US.
There are some other issues as well but these were some of the bigger ones that stuck out to me.
Regards
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EmoBirb
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First of all, I didn't suggest the US should produce nuclear cargo vessels lol. Second where has China experience with maritime nuclear propulsion???
They operate a handful of nuclear submarines, which are all a generation behind the US and Russia, if not two. China has no surface vessel with nuclear propulsion. The US has several carriers and Russia has several icebreakers, cruisers and a cargo vessel. If there is any area where China definitely lacks knowledge and expertise, it's marine nuclear propulsion.
Hi,
Just for reference, I stumbled across something last night that appears to indicate that Aker Phillidelphia has did start construction on the first of three LNG powered containerships for MATSON Lines late last year.
Pat
https://www.phillyshipyard.com/aloha-class-lng-fuled/
southwestforests
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That could be an issue,
Amid shortage, Navy recruiting program struggles to keep half first-year shipbuilders: Official
"Those folks are coming, and then we're attriting out way too quick," said Brett Seidle, the Navy’s acting acquisition executive.
By Justin Katz on March 26, 2025 at 7:55 AM
breakingdefense.com
...
Amid shortage, Navy recruiting program struggles to keep half first-year shipbuilders: Official
"Those folks are coming, and then we're attriting out way too quick," said Brett Seidle, the Navy’s acting acquisition executive.
By Justin Katz on March 26, 2025 at 7:55 AM
Amid shortage, Navy recruiting program struggles to keep half first-year shipbuilders: Official - Breaking Defense
"Those folks are coming, and then we're attriting out way too quick," said Brett Seidle, the Navy’s acting acquisition executive.
breakingdefense.com
...
1635yankee
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The US shipbuilding industry has not been economically competitive, without subsidies and protectionist policies, since ships were built from wood. I know it's a kind of glib aphorism.
To get a competitive commercial shipbuilding industry, the US needs to build up a lot of the industrial infrastructure:
I think people are the easiest issue. Nobody is born knowing how to weld or operate heavy machinery. They just need people to teach them how. Keeping them is a different issue.
To get a competitive commercial shipbuilding industry, the US needs to build up a lot of the industrial infrastructure:
- Manufacture of shipbuilding steel. Even 50 or 60 years ago, the US steel industry was not competitive outside of some specialty steels and strip and sheet for the auto industry.
- Manufacture of ship's machinery. Modern merchant ships all use low-speed, two-stroke diesels. These aren't made in the US.
- Shipyards. Except for the Great Lakes, are there any US commercial, that is not completely booked with military orders, for ships over 100 m long?
I think people are the easiest issue. Nobody is born knowing how to weld or operate heavy machinery. They just need people to teach them how. Keeping them is a different issue.
1635yankee
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Except they didn't; at least one Soviet icebreaker had a severe nuclear accident.
The Savannah reportedly had several incidents of large -- thousands of gallons -- of leakage of radioactive waste water.
I've got no ideological bias in favor of or in opposition to nuclear powered ships, however, I suspect there are a number of countries that do, and would not allow a nuclear-powered merchant ship into their domestic waters. You're right about nuclear powered ships reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but GHG reduction is anathema to the current US administration and its protectionist policies aren't likely to survive a change in administration. I'd like to see a resurgence in US commercial shipbuilding and the US merchant marine, but I don't think it will be possible without significant government expenditure, both in funding shipbuilding and in subsidizing merchant marine operating costs.
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That could be an issue,
Amid shortage, Navy recruiting program struggles to keep half first-year shipbuilders: Official
"Those folks are coming, and then we're attriting out way too quick," said Brett Seidle, the Navy’s acting acquisition executive.
By Justin Katz on March 26, 2025 at 7:55 AM
Amid shortage, Navy recruiting program struggles to keep half first-year shipbuilders: Official - Breaking Defense
"Those folks are coming, and then we're attriting out way too quick," said Brett Seidle, the Navy’s acting acquisition executive.
...
Part of the problem is that a unionized workforce is pretty hostile towards a 20 something entry level worker, unless you're a family member of another union worker. For an outsider, there is hostility, hazing and you're paying dues to an organization based entirely on seniority when you have absolutely none. If there's even a suspicion that an outsider got a job instead of someone's nephew or son....you can pretty much guess what happens.
It's not that $26/hour isn't a decent wage for an unskilled laborer in coastal Maine. My guess is that the skilled welders and electricians all make over $100k, but there again so can skilled tradesman in the building trades, without union dues and a hostile workplace. Truly capable skilled workers become contractors in their own right and won't put up with unionized shift work.
If you set your mind to it, you can also politicize Mother's Day, but the business world is moved by an immutable law called the law of supply and demand. Since time immemorial, every politician who has ever existed has tried to change that law by stupidly thinking that it is a human law when in fact it is an immutable physical principle. If a communist, a gothic artist, a hairdresser, or a serial killer wants to do business, they will be welcome, if they leave their hobbies at home.
The unionized workforce was one of the reasons why U.S. factories went to China, should evolve to adapt to the 21st century.
The workforce is not stupid, give them a decent part of the business, show them that you can count on them for a good reason, and they will follow you to the end, they... and its robots.
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He wanted to force Europe to buy more American weapons. It was never his plan that Europe went out to buy European weapons.
He just lost billions in current days sales and trillions in future sales. But he is a great businessman.. Art of the deal...
Thanks to American " protection' the USSR lasted at least a decade longer then it would have. Fear of getting nuked by completely crazy Americans is what held the USSR together. Has been confirmed by a few leaders of the USSR and the KGB...
Great job USA...
Those attacks were all American propaganda ment to put fear into people, get them to buy the 'protection' that America offered. Sounds familiar... Oh yeah, they same tactic the mafia uses to extort money...
At the same time that the first billionaire in the USA popped up? Waw, that is the best argument of the day, I have no reply to that...
Yeah, such a horrible waste of money to make your cities look good, people that are healthy and happy to life there... And tourist loves to visit in droves.... Yeah, we should have spend that money giving it to billionaires that could then buy their third yacht, their 17th house and fill their pools with champagne... And the USA is now the closest thing to heaven on earth for ALL of its citizen. Shame on you Europe for caring...
Why is there a trade deficit?
Plain and simple, we want very little of what the USA is selling. Chlorinated chicken? You mean meat washed with swimming pool water? Sounds delicious
A Ford F-150? Sure, I will park in my small garage, drive it down the small roads and park like an a-hole across 3 parkingspots at 15 euro/h.
What else do you guys sell? Beer? We can US beer pisswater and drink our own locally brewed stuff, maybe you heard of a small company called AB-Inbev. They have been making beer since 1366...
What else can I buy from the United States?
No joke this time, I honestly can't remember wanting to buy anything from the US and I can't remember seeing anything that was 'made in the USA' for a long time. Meanwhile I have had a couple of phones , computers, electronics, clothes and regular stuff that is make all in China.
Why would we need leverage? The USA is the one that wants our beers, our chocolate, our delicious food( without Chlorine in it), our champagne, our whiskeys, our electronics, our tourists, our entrepreneurs, our brilliant students.... You still can have it, with a lot of tariffs on it. Not our tariffs, but your own tariffs ( yes, that is how it works, you pay your own tariffs...)
But back on topic....
I don't think the US can rebuilt its shipping industry, mainly because nobody can afford the much more expensive ships being built. And honestly, looking at how many shipbuilding projects that the last couple of decades went wrong or got canceled, is a worrying trend... The US is just not good in planning projects, and changes its mind too often to get successful projects to finish.
Yeah sure, now the ETA, NOAA and OSHA are all dead and buried, you can go back to the old days, with a few dozens crippled and dead per ship (and many people more with diseases that show up long after the ship is gone). To hell with safety, regulations, health and even proper pay for a worker. They are just dumb hillbillies. The real problem would be the enormous corruption that envelopes it all.... The guys running the place are not really interested in the ships, only in the money. The president is not really interested in the ships, he just wants a lot of ships ( and money ofcourse, for all his hard work...) The middle men are all yes men, also not really interested in ships, but more interested in the approval of their boss... Is the president really going to send out a inspector to see if that one ship has 500mm armour? That is hard work, and steel is expensive... Give the guy a couple of grand, and you got a really good ship with the best steel.
Or maybe he is really strict and threatens everyone that he will expose the fraud to the president. On his way to the White House, he trips and falls off out of a window of the Empire State building... Oops...
The only way this is going to work is that the will forcefully relocate people and jobs to suit their needs.
Now a car-welder in Nevada? You can go and weld a ship in New Jersey...
Electrician with a cozy maintainance job? There are spots deep inside a ship waiting for you to crawl through....
A drafter in Florida? Why not draft ship plans in Alaska?
Maker of commercials in New York? Why don't you make a propeganda movie in Hawaii? Just kidding, you can go shoot our trainingsfilm in Alaska. Not asking...Btw, you are on the first plane to Alaska... Or El-Salvador...
I think it is just another money grabbing scheme to funnel billions out of the treasury, money to line the pockets of the president and his fellow co-conspirators to get even richer... The plan is really simple even the Americans can understand it. The president orders 100 ships to be build. The budget is 10 billion. But very soon they notice that inflation is raising so they rebudget the project to 20 billion. So they start a bidding contest between companies to get the best proposal. The POTUS tweets: Make a deal I can't refuse. Company A pays 10 million bribe, B pays 15 mil, C pays 17. The president tweets again: The deal has to be renegotiated, all proposals were BS.
So they again pay and this time more. The POTUS is happy with his money. And the winner gets the contract. The POTUS wants his ships as soon as possible for the least amount of money, but better soon. Take whatever shortcut you can. Two hulls in one? Why? 10mm steel? 5 keeps the water out too. Running simulations and building shipmodels? Take a drawing of another ship and just make it bigger... Bent the rules? There are no rules, do what ever is necessary... So a ship cost suddenly half the price of what was budgetted... What to do with all that money? Give it back to the government? Sure the president wants some of it back, on his private bankaccount somewhere off-shore. And if you pay the congress a lot of money, they will look the other way should anything go wrong with the ships...And it isn't illegal anymore... The rest is for that new yacht....
We are talking about a country that went from having a small number of outdated aircraft in 1936 to manufacturing 297,000 military airplanes between 1938 and 1945.
In January 1940, the President Franklin Roosevelt asked the Congress to vote founds to produce 50,000 planes per year to compensate for the German technological superiority.
In 1941 the U.S. industry built 19,445 military aircraft, by the end of 1942 were delivered 47,836 combat airplanes, in 1943 the production was 85,898, in 1944 was 96,318 and 47,714 in 1945 when the production contracts were cut back sharply.
From Sputnik Kaputnik to the small step on the Moon.
Yamamoto also made the mistake of underestimating Rosie the riveteer's industrial ability.
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In order for the US to have a hope of future business deals with Europe, the United States needs Europe to actually exist in the future. For a generation or two Europe has been on the path to ultimate and inevitable extinction. Getting them to actually give a damn about their own defense is a necessary first step to getting the Europeans to continue themselves into the future. If they hate us now it's no big deal compared to them actually existing in 40 years.
@Justo Miranda in the 1930s and 40s we had a massive industrial sector that could quickly be converted to producing war materials. Vehicle production lines could be converted to airplane production lines relatively quickly. The skilled labor to bend metal and produce tanks and other vehicles was readily available. Today, the United States has an anemic manufacturing sector.
All countries have had their glory days.
In trade war with the US, China holds a lot more cards than Trump may think − in fact, it might have a winning hand
Trump’s tariffs may hurt, but this time China holds more cards − and could turn the pressure into a strategic advantage.
theconversation.com
China has been decoupling itself from the US for years, preparing for just this event.
Regards,
Over $5 Trillion in investments have come in since the President took office. The United Auto Workers saw a steady series of factory closings over the last 30 years. Empty buildings dot the landscape. This created what the media called "The Rust Belt." By excluding foreign steel, American steel production has gone up.
In a Victory for Autoworkers, Auto Tariffs Mark the Beginning of the End of NAFTA and the “Free Trade” Disaster - UAW | United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America
Days after Volkswagen, the #2 automaker in the world, announced making $20.6 billion in profit in 2024, a new UAW survey of VW workers in Chattanooga reveals the devastating financial toll of VW’s substandard U.S. health care offerings.
uaw.org
The American steel industry will be “reinvigorated” by President Donald J. Trump’s tariffs on steel imports, writes Steel Manufacturers Association President Philip K. Bell in today’s Pittsburgh Post-Gazette — describing how President Trump’s action to close loopholes and exemptions will strengthen the critical industry.
“The American steel industry, in other words, is going in reverse, primarily because of increasing imports from exempt countries and product exclusions. With global overcapacity soaring, foreign producers everywhere will take advantage of any gaps in America’s tariffs to find an outlet for their excess steel in the U.S. market.
The harmful impact of a ton of imported steel sold at the domestic industry’s expense does not depend on whether it comes from an ‘ally’ or ‘adversary’ country.
A stable supply of domestically produced steel is more important than ever to America’s national, economic and energy security. In the face of the considerable pressure likely to come to exempt certain countries and weaken the tariffs, the president has stayed strong and continued to put America first on steel trade.”
Indeed that is why Europe still builds something like 95% of worlds cruise ships that have more added value ,but not so much in cargo ships that are basically sold per tone. Fincantieri that is also a big player in military shipbuilding, builds like 31+% of Cruise ships
And in 1857 there was only one elevator in New York
That is true but except for that country, there is no one capable of reversing the decline of the Western world and the alternative is an ideology with seventy years of experience in population adjustments. I expect there is still plenty of fuel left in Sherman’s tank.
Most of those "investments" are to be staggered over years and mostly are suck ups to the office.
Pledging and actually investing are completely different.
Again, all the talk is nothing but big empty announcements.
Exactly and now, China is the US of the 1950's, all working to one goal.
Whereas it seems the US is now working on 1,000 different goals all likely to fail.
The US 10yr bond yield went from 3.88 to 4.57% in a few days and will likely go higher, this is why the tariffs were put on hold.
That shows how weak the US is economically.
Regards,
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This move by Hyundai probably sums it all up.
armyrecognition.com
South Korea offers to build five Aegis destroyers per year to help the US counter China at sea
South Korea offers to build five Aegis destroyers per year to help the US counter China at sea
armyrecognition.com
Europe is mostly threatened by imigration , defense spending will not change that ,its mostly an inefficient spending with little to no economic multiplying effect.
Africa population growth is not stopping and remains continent without economic oprotunity for its populace and unless we make Africa successful in at least modest way we will have 100+mio folks with no prospects pushing on the borders wanting to move to Europe to a stage when we will be forced to shoot at them and make interment camps on African soil.
For Africa to succede, we need Chinese , US had its chance and squandered trillions and 2decades in illegal wars of Iraq and Afghanistan .US has no clue how to build and no prospects in surplanting Chinas role.
US financialised economy is here to stay old money and new money is mostly made scaming folks with govermental backstop when things go south. Trump just pardoned a plethora of outright white collar criminals outright scamers
In 1940-70 best and brightest worked on defense and space programs now for decades these cadres are in Financial industry trying to game the system or running outright pyramid schemes that is most of the crypto space.On the other hand its the financial system that enables much of the innovation, striping the world for best brains. But whole mess now and upcoming Israel loyalty test for new immigrants might just stop the flow of brains into US.
When people talk new cold war US is the Soviets now just much more fucked up when it comes to manufacturing.
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Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Well, SpaceX & other "new space" companies changed the situation - they attract enormous amount of best and brightest, not only by good pay, but also by the chance to see their dreams becoming reality. Working on actual hardware, that would not be canned due to political shenanigans or because money was pumped into pockets of well-connected corporation.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Essentially the lesson is, that economy build on services and financial operations could not compete with economy of real product.
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Or worse, 'terrorist incident waiting to happen'. They'd need to sail with onboard armed security, with all the political complications that brings.
It also ignores the likelihood of nuclear-powered vessels being barred from key ports or chokepoints, which would immediately critically disadvantage them.
Then there's the long term refuelling/scrappage issues.
The economic justification for going nuclear is going to be dubious in the extreme.
*Exactly* so. It's an existential crisis.
Most of Western Europe has not defended itself from the ongoing invasion. If Europe is *finally* brought to the point of outrage by Trumps wacky yammerings, great... but oddly, rampant knifings, rape gangs, industrial scale welfare fraud, candy shop/barbershop storefront organized crime outlets, cultural conquests and degradation weren't able to do it. Clearly what Europe needs aren't stealth fighters but walls on the borders, soldiers in the streets and navies on the seas, but getting them to admit that heir nations, peoples and cultures are worth defending is an important first step.
It's not just Africa. The Middle East, Pakistan and India are moving en masse into Europe. Europes only hope *is* to say "no." Or soon all that will be left are the likes of Poland, who *will* stand at their walls and shoot.
Bringing Chinese tofu dreg methods into African work culture?
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Europe has survived plague, famine and war. Barring all-out nuclear war, Europe will survive this.
I feel some people WANT another apocalypse.
Now, back to the practicality of executive order to revitalize US shipbuilding industry?
I feel some people WANT another apocalypse.
Now, back to the practicality of executive order to revitalize US shipbuilding industry?
Intriguing that Americans do not understand that they have already lost the tariff war.
3 days in and the administration blinked and then gave everyone 90 days to work out what they are going to reply with if the administration does next. Pretty sure they can cane the US pretty hard.
The US showed its hand as the moment treasuries moved towards 5%, they quickly went to ground.
China has been selling US debt over the last week and hence the 10yrs are rising in yield, image if all the other US bond holders did the same?
Yields would go to 6% pretty quickly and then if further sales would occur as everyone would be dumping US treasuries and you could get 10% plus yields and that would result in a technical default by the US on its bonds as they could never service their repayments, and it would truly be a mess.
US has a 37 trillion hole; they are dead in the water and everyone knows it. China can take much more pain for much longer.
www.independent.co.uk
www.independent.co.uk
As said before money makes the world go around, not hope and dreams.
The earlier comment of 5 trillion coming into the US is quite strange as the recent actions of the administration have wiped about 8 trillion off the US markets, and that is in today $$ terms not something supposedly coming down the pipeline over the next 10 yrs.
Anyway, all good as the US will start making 10,000,000's of ships, subs and all the other BS that is coming out of the Whitehouse.
Regards,
3 days in and the administration blinked and then gave everyone 90 days to work out what they are going to reply with if the administration does next. Pretty sure they can cane the US pretty hard.
The US showed its hand as the moment treasuries moved towards 5%, they quickly went to ground.
China has been selling US debt over the last week and hence the 10yrs are rising in yield, image if all the other US bond holders did the same?
Yields would go to 6% pretty quickly and then if further sales would occur as everyone would be dumping US treasuries and you could get 10% plus yields and that would result in a technical default by the US on its bonds as they could never service their repayments, and it would truly be a mess.
US has a 37 trillion hole; they are dead in the water and everyone knows it. China can take much more pain for much longer.
Fox Business reporter says it’s the ‘White House who capitulated’ on tariffs
‘I want to tell you right now that Donald Trump outsmarted the world,’ Charles Gasparino said. ‘But that's not really what happened here’
www.independent.co.uk
Donald Trump’s climbdown will be a turning point in his presidency
Editorial: Market forces have shown that the US president, for all his self-belief, is not invulnerable. The undoing of his foolhardy fiscal strategy is a wake-up call for the American establishment, which needs to recover its nerve and offer some checks and balances of its own
www.independent.co.uk
As said before money makes the world go around, not hope and dreams.
The earlier comment of 5 trillion coming into the US is quite strange as the recent actions of the administration have wiped about 8 trillion off the US markets, and that is in today $$ terms not something supposedly coming down the pipeline over the next 10 yrs.
Anyway, all good as the US will start making 10,000,000's of ships, subs and all the other BS that is coming out of the Whitehouse.
Regards,
Pre Ukraine war even countries like Poland were already looking at import of Napal,Philipino workers, Ukrainan workforce was a mayor boon for Europe ,one of the reasons no one is too keen for the war to end and Ukrainians to return home.
Its question of chinese buildign up basic infrastructure in Africa, and at one point making factories ,farms and shit , giving locals perspective employment
Western - IMF approach for past 5or 6 decades is just loans to corrupt elites and austerity for populace , chinese debt diplomacy brings far more tangible benefits for the locals and does not come with gay and trans toilets and rest of woke baggage
Say, that's a good one! A very good impersonation of a ChiCom shill talking point.
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This topic remind me of something long time ago
in age were i was young...
This here
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Cnd1cOg6A
in age were i was young...
This here
Thank you!!!
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