Royal Australian Navy (RAN) DDL project (1966-72)

[Triton]

Artist's impression of Royal Australian Navy (RAN) light destroyer (DDL) project from 1966 to 1972.

Source: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=54420

For more information.
URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_light_destroyer_project

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Well that's amazing. That last picture attached is from a scan of the Cockatoo Island Shipyard deck plan drawing of the DDL. But it has been cleaned up by me but not completely finished. It’s a full page picture with all the decks and I’ve had to redraw stuff in that was lost in the archive scan and finished up a lot of stuff. I'm cleaning it up for an article about the DDL program to go in the Navy League (Australia) magazine that is waiting to be published once a scale model of the DDL has been finished (to provide photos). Yet somehow my interim cleaning job has ended up on their webpage? (I recognize the bits of static I hadn’t removed in this draft.) I would imagine the editor has passed it on to the model maker who has posted the picture online... Ahh well doesn’t matter but the world’s a small place. The final picture is much better.

 

[Triton]

The builder of the DDL model also has photographs of it during construction and also shots of the completed model in the water. They may be found at the Source link.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The builder of the DDL model also has photographs of it during construction and also shots of the completed model in the water. They may be found at the Source link.

Yeah I know him, he's a good guy.

 

[Triton]

Yeah I know him, he's a good guy.

He built a handsome model, please convey my appreciation. I am also interesting in reading your article when it is published in the Navy League (Australia) magazine, Abraham.

 

[Thiel]

Do any of you guys have any statistics on the original proposal?
As far as I've been able to gather, it's the drawing labeled DDL-03.

 

[TomS]

Do any of you guys have any statistics on the original proposal?
As far as I've been able to gather, it's the drawing labeled DDL-03.

I suspect it's the one described in Wikipedia as Y-ARD's preliminary design after the Navy Office's sketch. If so, it should be close to the following:

Displacement: 2,100 tons
Length: 335 feet (102.1 m)
Beam: 40 feet (12.2 m)
Maximum Speed: 32 knots
Armament: Two five-inch guns
Aircraft: One light helicopter.

 

[Pioneer]

I recall reading somewhere, that although the final DDL design had facilities for two helicopters, the RAN in fact, only stipulated one helicopter to be embarked!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Volkodav]

I recall ready somewhere, that although the final DDL design had facilities for two helicopters, the RAN in fact, only stipulated one helicopter to be embarked!

Regards
Pioneer

I'll have to do some digging but if I recall correctly the original requirement was for a single Wessex while the final configuration was for a pair of Lynx. The Wessex requirement existed for quite some time exclusive of the DDL, being desired on the notional RAN Tartar County and also on an unbuilt derivative of the Charles F Adams.

 

[Pioneer]

Thank you Volkodav

Re your

being desired on the notional RAN Tartar County and also on an unbuilt derivative of the Charles F Adams

Do you have any more info/pics of these derivatives?

Would be most interested

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Volkodav]

There was an article in the Navy League of Australia Navy Magazine on the Perth Class DDGs including the proposed fourth ship and helicopter versions and the Tartar County the RAN were interested in is mentioned in Friedman's British Destroyers and Frigates. I believe the Perth Class derivative was a more serious proposition while the County was firmly rejected by the RN at concept stage as they feared the design effort would detract from their priority projects at the time.

http://navyleague.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/The-Navy-Vol_54_Part1-1992-Jan-and-Apr-1992.pdf

Abraham Gubler probably knows more on both than I ever have.

 

[Pioneer]

There was an article in the Navy League of Australia Navy Magazine on the Perth Class DDGs

http://navyleague.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/The-Navy-Vol_54_Part1-1992-Jan-and-Apr-1992.pdf

Abraham Gubler probably knows more on both than I ever have.

Thank's mate, I really found the Navy League of Australia Navy Magazine article on the Charles F. Adams really interestingly, and far more informative about the RAN's choices of Charles F. Adams variants than I ever knew or appreciated. It seems a pity that Australia didn't opt for the 'Suggestion B' proposal from the beginning - after all this appeared to be closer to the original/envisaged DDL design in terms of weapons/helicopter arrangement!
Would love to see the artist drawing of 'Suggestion B' in the form of a Shipbucket-type profile

P.S. So how about it Abraham Gubler - do you have anything more on these design proposals?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Volkodav]

Thanks but you need to remember that the DDL or Light Destroyer was envisaged as a lower end complement to the existing destroyer fleet of Battle and Daring class (which were planned to be upgraded with Ikara and possibly Tartar), as well as the new DDGs and the ASW focussed frigates / DEs. They were basically fast sloops i.e. because of their general purpose but lower rate sensor and armament fit, that evolved into destroyer replacements following the addition of helicopters, then Tartar to protect the expensive addition.

I suppose a good modern analogy of the original concept would be the USNs LCS, Germanys K130s, or Turkeys Milgems, a complement to the existing and planned high end major combatants. Intended for cold war counter insurgency in littoral environments, but designed to be survivable against high end threats should things heat up. Something the RAN still desires today and may finally get depending which OPV is selected for them and whether the design retains its foundations and interfaces for a more capable sensor suite and combat system.

 

[Tzoli]

Maybe I will draw this proposal, but does anybody have drawings including top view as well?

 

[Pioneer]

Maybe I will draw this proposal, but does anybody have drawings including top view as well?

Yes please Tzoli!!


Regards
Pioneer

 

[Tzoli]

Does anybody recognise the radar on the last side drawing on top of the bridge? (Not on the artist impression)

I cannot make the clear text but some sort of An/SPS or SPG - -4? 14? 19? 29? 54? Looks like a smaller sized AN/SPS-49

 

[Tzoli]

Here is my idea of this design based on the side drawing, artist impression and the model from this site:
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=54420

https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/Australian-Light-Destroyer-Project-760948911

 

[TomS]

Does anybody recognise the radar on the last side drawing on top of the bridge? (Not on the artist impression)

I cannot make the clear text but some sort of An/SPS or SPG - -4? 14? 19? 29? 54? Looks like a smaller sized AN/SPS-49

Possibly SPS-10, a surface search set also seen on the CF Adams/Perth class? It's really hard to tell in that drawing.

http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/11.ancient/karte075.en.html

 

[Tzoli]

Does anybody recognise the radar on the last side drawing on top of the bridge? (Not on the artist impression)

I cannot make the clear text but some sort of An/SPS or SPG - -4? 14? 19? 29? 54? Looks like a smaller sized AN/SPS-49

Possibly SPS-10, a surface search set also seen on the CF Adams/Perth class? It's really hard to tell in that drawing.

http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/11.ancient/karte075.en.html

Thank you! It seems very likely as the shape and the pivot where the radar rotates are around the same location.
I've updated the drawing accordingly.

 

[TomS]

Glad to help. I notice there seem to be two navigation radars, one on the pilothouse roof and one on the mast. That seems off to me.

I think there are indications that the pilothouse roof has a low-light-level television system (there's very blurry caption that I think says LLLTV). Have you illustrated that? Perhaps that's in lieu of the second nav radar?

 

[Tzoli]

Glad to help. I notice there seem to be two navigation radars, one on the pilothouse roof and one on the mast. That seems off to me.

I think there are indications that the pilothouse roof has a low-light-level television system (there's very blurry caption that I think says LLLTV). Have you illustrated that? Perhaps that's in lieu of the second nav radar?

Ahh so that was a TV camera! I thought it was an auxiliary radar!

 

[TomS]

Ahh so that was a TV camera! I thought it was an auxaliry radar!

Probably. LLLTV was pretty common for a while as a passive sensor for nighttime gunnery and surveillance. I've been trying to find a decent picture of the standard USN installation, with no luck.

 

[Tzoli]

Ahh so that was a TV camera! I thought it was an auxaliry radar!

Probably. LLLTV was pretty common for a while as a passive sensor for nighttime gunnery and surveillance. I've been trying to find a decent picture of the standard USN installation, with no luck.

Photos are usually easier to find about sensors like radars, but drawings are very rare, and I've yet to find a site which actually gives you information on the sets dimensions (Height, width, length and not wavelength of the radar wave)

 

[RP1]

Close-up of the GA drawing. SPS-10 and LLTV and a couple of other things.

 

[TomS]

That's very helpful.

Note the EXDAK datalink on the forward side of the mast, which I believe was meant so that this ship could pass sonar track data to Ikara-equipped ASW shooters.

The actual nav radar is the small radome on a pole on top of the pilot house tagged as RM 916.

https://magazines.marinelink.com/Magazines/MaritimeReporter/197004/page/19

Also note the Abbey Road ESM stacked under the WM25 ball.

 

[Tzoli]

Thanks, I try to fix these but I'm not familiar with modern electronics as I mostly specialise in WW2 drawings.

 

[TomS]

I appreciate the effort -- I've never had the skill for drawings like these.

Some input that will hopefully simplify the drawing process.

The nav radar is pretty simple -- it's a fairly small flat-topped radome on a pole.

Abbey Hill is basically a set of antennas around the mast-head. Here's a Shipbucket thread that shows a ship with something similar to the DDL installation, with UAA-1 under a WM25 type ball: http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=103&start=300

EXDAK is harder -- I've never seen a clear picture of it. Honestly, I think you could just follow the arrangements sketch -- it's a box hanging under the bracket and a little radome on top.

 

[RP1]

So, question, *does* anyone know the copyright status of the complete general arrangement? Because I've got it as a PDF. Not the cleaned up version - the original. Minus the bridge because of bad scanner alignment.

 

[Tzoli]

I like to know that as well.
Because the artist impression lacks the middle tower for the AN/SPS-49
While the detailed side drawing has it but I cannot figure out if that tower is connected with the funnel via a bridge or it's base is extended to mount a larger deck house like that ship model I've linked.

 

[TomS]

I'm not a lawyer but seeing as it would be shared for research purposes and would have no significant economic impact on the owner, I think it would fall under Australian copyright law's "fair dealing" provisions.

 

[Tzoli]

I've added those TV cameras and fixed some other sensors on the mast

 

[Robert Mansfield]

Their is some film on the DDL mock up given to the RAN

DDL model unveiled

www.awm.gov.au

and

DDL model handed over

www.awm.gov.au

 

[Tzoli]

Except for the behind bridge mounted large radar and harpoon launchers, looks like my drawing became quite accurate!
Thanks for the videos!

 

[Brickmuppet]

I came across this image on an old flash drive in the ???folder. The file name indicates it's a DDL. I vaguely remember stumbling across this years ago and that it was Australian. It might be related to the Aussie DDL project mentioned on this forum elsewhere but that was a guided missile destroyer with Tartar/Standard. This is interesting for having what appear to be 2X5"54 lightweight guns. Does anyone have any info on this design, particularly dimensions and displacement?

 

[H_K]

I came across this image on an old flash drive in the ???folder. The file name indicates it's a DDL. I vaguely remember stumbling across this years ago and that it was Australian. It might be related to the Aussie DDL project mentioned on this forum elsewhere but that was a guided missile destroyer with Tartar/Standard. This is interesting for having what appear to be 2X5"54 lightweight guns. Does anyone have any info on this design, particularly dimensions and displacement?

Is this what you’re referring to? From the DDL thread?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/royal-australian-navy-ran-ddl-project-1966-72.10698/

I suspect it's the one described in Wikipedia as Y-ARD's preliminary design after the Navy Office's sketch. If so, it should be close to the following:

Displacement: 2,100 tons
Length: 335 feet (102.1 m)
Beam: 40 feet (12.2 m)
Maximum Speed: 32 knots
Armament: Two five-inch guns
Aircraft: One light helicopter.

 

[Brickmuppet]

Actually that's it. The EXACT same picture. The picture did not post for some reason. I had checked the DDL thread and somehow missed that image. It's the FIRST image in that thread. The others are of DDGs so I thought they might be unrelated to this one. THANKS! Sorry for the brain fart.

 

[Oberon_706]

That is an early iteration of what became DDL back when the project was known as the 'Australian General Purpose Escort'. Think of it as an attempt to create an LCS for the 1970s, with a common hull and machinery layout able to support the construction of several specialised variants (ASW, AAW, AsuW/littoral warfare etc). Much of this was derived from the RANs' operational experience during the Malayan Emergency and Indonesian Confrontation. THis program merged later into a larger project to replace the Daring class destroyers, creating what became DDL.

 

[Felocie]

That is an early iteration of what became DDL back when the project was known as the 'Australian General Purpose Escort'. Think of it as an attempt to create an LCS for the 1970s, with a common hull and machinery layout able to support the construction of several specialised variants (ASW, AAW, AsuW/littoral warfare etc). Much of this was derived from the RANs' operational experience during the Malayan Emergency and Indonesian Confrontation. THis program merged later into a larger project to replace the Daring class destroyers, creating what became DDL.

I know this is almost a year old but do you have anything to show these links? I’m very much interested in the project but it’s, like most RAN projects, rather murky as to what was actually happening

 

[Kanga]

I know this is almost a year old but do you have anything to show these links? I’m very much interested in the project but it’s, like most RAN projects, rather murky as to what was actually happening

It may be of interest that the various images posted above, including the detailed plans, were apparently not the final design. The final design is the second image in the very first post,the one with the deck break. The image seems to be taken from John Jeremy's book on the Cockatoo Island dockyard. If I understand it correctly the detailed plans shown in the other posts were referred to Gibbs and Cox in the US, who made significant changes including the deck break and the lattice mast. At that point the project was cancelled.

 

[Dilandu]

How many fire control channels she was supposed to have? There is one dish illuminator on rear (apparently AN/SPG-61) and MW-25 on main mast, so I presume, she used a two-channel derivative of Mk.92 FCS? Like on "Perry"'s?