Boeing F-47 Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD)

donnage99 said:
This thing already seems set up messy. Halting so late into competition cause of cost concern or perhaps cause Air Force faced impossible choice of goin with Boeing then now it’s gonna be cheaper than f-22.

Last time Northrop bailed voluntarily out of a program you know what happened aka A-12 paper plane
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As far as is known publicly, there were no changes to the requirements or submissions, and indeed it is hard to imagine that a six month pause would allow for either. At most all that changed was who the preferred vendor was, and even then there were rumors that the Boeing submission was favored going back a year. NGs public statement was that they wanted to focus on FA-XX. Quellish stated that they did not like conditions of the contract intended to prevent vendor lock. Either way, it seems like the pause had nothing to do with it - in fact IIRC, NG dropped before the pause, so the two are unrelated.
 
pedrospe said:
The Chinese J-20 uses canards, and it´s a stealth fighter.
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For years the J-20 has been and still is belittled to be non-stealthy due to canards being non-VLO compatible. I find the situation pretty amusing with how the same people, analysts, and journalists who expertly talked about the J-20's design will now speak on the excellent next generation all aspect stealth the F-47 will incorporate with canards.

To this day despite many Chinese sources stating that canards have a negligible impact, the J-20's stealth characteristics are still often reported to be far worse than the F-22 and F-35, with that as such a reason.
 
With the F-47 being the first operational stealth fighter from Boeing, I wonder how advanced and next-gen it can possibly be. After all, it's not the United States that has built 5th gen stealth fighters, it's Lockheed Martin. Boeing just happens to exist in the same country.
 
Nx4eu said:
To this day despite many Chinese sources stating that canards have a negligible impact, the J-20's stealth characteristics are also touted to be far worse than the F-22 and F-35, with that as such a reason.
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If your target RCS spec is -10dbsm in the frontal aspect , yes they have a negligible impact.

-50dbsm is a different story. The problems that have to be solved are different.
 
Nx4eu said:
For years the J-20 has been and still is belittled to be non-stealthy due to canards being non-VLO compatible. I find the situation pretty amusing with how the same people, analysts, and journalists who expertly talked about the J-20's design will now speak on the excellent next generation all aspect stealth the F-47 will incorporate with canards.

To this day despite many Chinese sources stating that canards have a negligible impact, the J-20's stealth characteristics are still often reported to be far worse than the F-22 and F-35, with that as such a reason.
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From a technical standpoint I don’t see how canards “done right” can be much worse than all moving wing tips if you really think about it. The real hurdle to all aspect stealth has always been vertical slabs. They literally create corner reflectors but you don’t see people complaining about them since every single fifth gen has them.
 
joshjosh said:
With the F-47 being the first operational stealth fighter from Boeing, I wonder how advanced and next-gen it can possibly be. After all, it's not the United States that has built 5th gen stealth fighters, it's Lockheed Martin. Boeing just happens to exist in the same country.
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You forget Boeing partnered with GD and Lockheed on the F-22, and had it's own submission for ATF before the selection of the Northrop and Lockheed designs to proceed to prototype flight test. Boeing also had experience on Comanche and stealth modded the Bin Laden Blackhawks. They've been working on low observables since the 60's.
 
Josh_TN said:
As far as is known publicly, there were no changes to the requirements or submissions, and indeed it is hard to imagine that a six month pause would allow for either. At most all that changed was who the preferred vendor was, and even then there were rumors that the Boeing submission was favored going back a year. NGs public statement was that they wanted to focus on FA-XX. Quellish stated that they did not like conditions of the contract intended to prevent vendor lock. Either way, it seems like the pause had nothing to do with it - in fact IIRC, NG dropped before the pause, so the two are unrelated.
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Contract negotiation aside, FWIW, (if true) I don't see how it's possible that Boeing's project has been in the works for 5 years, if there was any doubt they wouldn't receive the award. Given the systemic woes that Boeing has faced (including PR disaster), that's a very big bet to make if you're not sure of the outcome. IIRC, there was a post in this thread that mentioned Boeing had built a new production factory in St. Louis in recent years as well. More fuel for the fire.

In other words, that is waay too much known-unknown for my taste. I like to sleep peacefully. :)
 
VishnuOsiris said:
IIRC, there was a post in this thread that mentioned Boeing had built a new production factory in St. Louis in recent years as well. More fuel for the fire.
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The Advance Combat Aircraft Facility, for $1.8B, was only announced in 2023 I believe. Perhaps they knew as early as 2023 that they would get NGAD.
 
joshjosh said:
With the F-47 being the first operational stealth fighter from Boeing, I wonder how advanced and next-gen it can possibly be. After all, it's not the United States that has built 5th gen stealth fighters, it's Lockheed Martin. Boeing just happens to exist in the same country.
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This is silly. Boeing has bid competitively on both 5th-gen programs and has been a major subcontractor on one. They've also competed on bomber and UCAV contracts right up through CCA. They're hardly newbies.
 
joshjosh said:
With the F-47 being the first operational stealth fighter from Boeing, I wonder how advanced and next-gen it can possibly be. After all, it's not the United States that has built 5th gen stealth fighters, it's Lockheed Martin. Boeing just happens to exist in the same country.
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Boeing’s worked extensively on systems integration (avionics, sensors, comms, weapons) and LO design (RCS, infrared signature, structural shaping) across programs like the B-2, F-22, X-32, X-45, MQ-25, ATS, and various other developmental efforts.

Whatever they're short on, they can just sub it out. It's not like primes in-house all of the work they do for these contracts anyway.
 
quellish said:
If your target RCS spec is -10dbsm in the frontal aspect , yes they have a negligible impact.

-50dbsm is a different story. The problems that have to be solved are different
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Do we know that the J-20 was merely targeting -10dbsm?

Does this mean that the F-47 may not be able to reach targets like -50dbsm with the Prescence of canards, or are there certain ways to minimize canard returns that the F-47 may be featuring? I also presume that the stealth on the F-47 should be much better than on the likes of the F-22, considering the technology gap and experience between the programs.
 
Nx4eu said:
Do we know that the J-20 was merely targeting -10dbsm?

Does this mean that the F-47 may not be able to reach targets like -50dbsm with the Prescence of canards, or are there certain ways to minimize canard returns that the F-47 may be featuring?
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You should immediately proceed here
 
pedrospe said:
What ever the final design for the new F-47 is, the good news is that the U.S.A. finally have something to show for:)
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All we have so far is an artist's impression. Granted, that's better than a powerpoint but. . .
 
tacitblue1973 said:
You forget Boeing partnered with GD and Lockheed on the F-22, and had it's own submission for ATF before the selection of the Northrop and Lockheed designs to proceed to prototype flight test.
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Yeah but it was 4th place. Behind Lockeed and Northrop.
 
NMaude said:
I have no doubt that the -47 is due to the fact that the Orange Oaf is the 47th POTUS, if this come out during the Fanta Fascist's first time disgracing and dishonouring the Oval Office it would've been the F-45. As it is there is already an existing F-47, I wonder if the NGAD's official name will be Thunderbolt-II?



Fixed that for you.



I have no doubt that the Bloviating Buffoon would insist that the US makes the best canards, that nobody but America makes canards like they do, bigly!

It wouldn't surprise me at all talking about non-standard designations if he insists the prototype be designated the XF-47A just to puff up his oversized ego some more.
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Okay, I get you don't like Trump. Heck, I don't like Trump. You still need to stop with the constant jibes.
 
Its important to remember we have NO IDEA just how many Black Projects Boeing worked on. Its telling that the Bird of Prey has informed aspects of the F-47 so maybe given its status as the outsider Boeing simply chased more Darpa contracts and progressed its state of the art far more than realized. Remember in the 80s no-one took Lockheed seriously as a Fighter vendor yet because of Darpa and Stealth it became preeminent. Something similar has probably happened with Boeing or its corporate welfare lol but given the rumors it was the preferred vendor plus its large investment in facilities to support NGAD, it was probably the front-runner for some time.
 
250321_dvids_ngad_rendering_8928540-scaled-jpg.763775

Qaher.png
 
ubiquitous08 said:
Its important to remember we have NO IDEA just how many Black Projects Boeing worked on. Its telling that the Bird of Prey has informed aspects of the F-47 so maybe given its status as the outsider Boeing simply chased more Darpa contracts and progressed its state of the art far more than realized. Remember in the 80s no-one took Lockheed seriously as a Fighter vendor yet because of Darpa and Stealth it became preeminent. Something similar has probably happened with Boeing or its corporate welfare lol but given the rumors it was the preferred vendor plus its large investment in facilities to support NGAD, it was probably the front-runner for some time.
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I remember that the Bird of Prey was declassified because many of its innovations became industry standard. Stuff like the large single piece skins and the control surface hinge covers. The latter of which is evolved yet again by the seamless control surfaces on the Chinese J-36. Everything gets refined and evolved by companies around the world whether espionage is involved or not, it's the same laws of physics in the end.
 
The style used in this rendering feels somewhat similar to that one B-21 rendering that extremely close in accuracy to what the actual plane looked like. Maybe it's a 3D rendering that they used in-house, and decided to censor in the back for public release.
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Another thought - render could be of the NGAD demonstrator.

It certainly looks like its been censored to hide something at the rear, unless its powered by black holes.
View attachment 763790
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4decaa said:
The style used in this rendering feels somewhat similar to that one B-21 rendering that extremely close in accuracy to what the actual plane looked like. Maybe it's a 3D rendering that they used in-house, and decided to censor in the back for public release.
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Someone at the USAF must enjoy playing "just the tip" when it comes to unveiling these new aircraft.

(please don't ban me)
 
Obviously it lacks a vertical stabilizer, is it not also obvious that it is blotting out the twin engine nacelles? It seems very much like it matches the Boeing F/A-XX render. I wonder if the smaller European theatre style variant would be suitable for carrier operations.
 
Hydroman said:
So since Boeing got selected for what is now the F-47 Trumpmeister, the USAF NGAD program was not is such disarray as was the original perception by the USAF. I think this decision was and is based upon China's new rapid development activities and Boeing needs to remain solvent but I'm sure with a lot of caveats from the USAF, don't screw it up. So NG will more than likely get the F/A-XX. If the USG tries for a dual-service, F-4 type scenario then stand-by for a s**t storm, hopefully, USAF NGAD and USN F/A-XX designs meet their unique mission requirements as independent programs.
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USAF needs about 50% more range than USN, and USN has some pretty scary dimensional limits in terms of maximum aircraft size and weights. USN deck elevators are about 85ft long by 50ft wide on the Ford-class, and IIRC Nimitz are a little smaller. The steam catapults cannot throw more than 90,000lbs. The Arresting gear maxes out at about 55,000lbs landing weight.



BDF said:
View attachment 763764
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Combined response:
In_A_Dream said:
Do the F-47 images show it having canards?
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Yes.



FighterJock said:
Would not surprise me Josh_TN, if the F-47 had two crew, and that second crew member was to command CCAs as we have been discussing on this thread in the past.
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That is absolutely what I expect. One dude to fly, one dude to quarterback the drones.



tacitblue1973 said:
Interesting design, though they pretty much have to have the 3 stream engine now for the range requirement.
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It was USN that was talking about skipping the 3 stream engines to get a plane faster.



Josh_TN said:
If those cost estimates and timelines are remotely feasible, why was the program ever called into question in the first place? I am extremely skeptical of this statement. Were that even marginally accurate, then the program should have been a slam dunk and never paused.
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I'm starting to think that the pause was pure maskirovka.



quellish said:
They are now looking to at least double the previous projected buy of 200.

USAF is trying to come up with a plan for how to use that many.
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400 birds? easy.

1:1 replacement of F22s and Strike Eagles.


Forest Green said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1903201297161130380
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1903201297161130380
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EMD flights within 4 years and maybe even LRIP? That's a very aggressive timeline, I don't know if Boeing can pull it off.
 

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