Are some secret projects too secret?!!

[Lauge]

At the risk of continuing an off-topic discussion, here's my 5 eurocents worth:

Is there life, including intelligent life, elsewhere in the universe?
I'm sure of it, if only for statistical reasons. Also, life here on Earth shows us that life appears anywhere and everywhere it possibly can, and quite a few places you'd think it couldn't. I like to believe that this is a (literally) universal principle.

Is this intelligent life visiting us?
Let me put it like this: If the choice is between

A. Intelligent alien beings regularly visiting us for no other apparent purpose than occasionally kidnapping unsuspecting North Americans and exposing them to various experiments of a (usually) reproductive nature*,

and

B. A combination of bogus witnesses, misinterpretations of the observed, faulty memories with regards to the observed, classified aircraft, rare meteorological phenomena and eating the wrong kind of mushrooms,

I'm firmly with B. on this.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

*) A friend of mine once pointed out that the fact that most "alien abduction" stories seem to come from the US is not in itself evidence that only North Americans are abducted. It is merely an indication that North Americans are the only ones the aliens give back after the experiments. Make of that what you will.... :

 

[Lauge]

Also lighter-than-air vehicles definitely don't change directions all of a sudden and dash away at great speed, like many observers said they did!!!

A common observation that can, in many cases, be explained without involving aliens or unobtainium-powered flying saucers:

If a conventional aircraft is flying almost directly towards you at some distance, especially if it is on approach, with it's landing lights on, then all you see is the lights, and because the aircraft is moving (almost) directly towards you, those lights appear not to move.

If, for example, the aircraft suddenly changes its heading, and then immediately after that starts to descend (not an unusual manoeuvre if it is on approach), this will look to you like immediate acceleration, followed by a sudden, 90 degree course change. And if the aircraft's attitude changes so much that the lights are no longer directed your way, then the "UFO" seems to just disappear into thin air.

The place I used to live outside Copenhagen was under one of the main departure routes to Copenhagen airport, and I had more than one opportunity to observe this phenomenon myself.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

 

[sublight]

....
As far as classified lighter than air vehicles, it's unlikely there is much to see there. Assuming you had some reason to have such a thing in the first place (they have limited military utility by their nature), such vehicles have very specific logistic requirements that are easy to track. Helium is a finite resource and comes from only so many places. LTA vehicles require personnel with specific skills, testing facilities with environmental etc. requirements that differ from fixed and rotary wing aircraft, etc. It's all very difficult to hide.

You are saying that every aerospace related secret project from the 50's to late 60's is known in some form or fashion? I'm more likely to buy the proposal above that some are still buried because of their connection to follow on programs.

 

[Vpanoptes]

At the risk of continuing an off-topic discussion, here's my 5 eurocents worth:

Is there life, including intelligent life, elsewhere in the universe?
I'm sure of it, if only for statistical reasons. Also, life here on Earth shows us that life appears anywhere and everywhere it possibly can, and quite a few places you'd think it couldn't. I like to believe that this is a (literally) universal principle.

While you may be sure "if only for statistical reasons", most scientists are not sure, but at least open to the possibility. The famous Drake equation, cited by Sagan and others (and recently modified) gives a wide range of possible values for the existence/presence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. As someone (possibly Dr. Drake himself) has pointed out, only one of the terms in the latter part of the equation has to be 0 to produce a final value of 0. Monty Python seems to have summed it all up nicely in the Meaning of Life with "The Universe song" lines "...and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth".
Is this intelligent life visiting us?

Let me put it like this: If the choice is between

A. Intelligent alien beings regularly visiting us for no other apparent purpose than occasionally kidnapping unsuspecting North Americans and exposing them to various experiments of a (usually) reproductive nature*,

and

B. A combination of bogus witnesses, misinterpretations of the observed, faulty memories with regards to the observed, classified aircraft, rare meteorological phenomena and eating the wrong kind of mushrooms,

I'm firmly with B. on this.

Mega-yup on that one.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

*) A friend of mine once pointed out that the fact that most "alien abduction" stories seem to come from the US is not in itself evidence that only North Americans are abducted. It is merely an indication that North Americans are the only ones the aliens give back after the experiments. Make of that what you will.... :

Well, that would definitely call into question their supposedly "advanced" intelligence ???

- Dan

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

At the risk of continuing an off-topic discussion, here's my 5 eurocents worth:

*) A friend of mine once pointed out that the fact that most "alien abduction" stories seem to come from the US is not in itself evidence that only North Americans are abducted. It is merely an indication that North Americans are the only ones the aliens give back after the experiments. Make of that what you will.... :

"Sorry your Galactic Majesty, we've searched this continent thoroughly but found no signs of intelligent life..."

 

[Justo Miranda]

Let’s consider, just for a moment and as a working hypothesis, that scientists have discovered a new propulsion system able to replace the jet engine. It has to happen someday..... why not now?

How could we get some clues about its existence?

There would be an increasing lack of interest in the development and financing of new conventional projects

If the same would happen with space projects, including the super cheap “Spaghetti Apollo”, that could mean that the new system has orbital potential.

If a new secret Manhattan Project is underway, we would all notice the lack of money. Is that not the case?

Does it not look a bit odd the little advancements in aero spatial industry, compared to that of the 40s and 60s?

Why does the Big Collider brake every time they are on the brink of discovering the Higgs boson?

Do you remember the new electromagnetic propulsion system mentioned by serious authors in the book Secret Projects Flying Saucers Aircraft?

Do you remember the propulsion system in the Russian submarine Red October? Wouldn’t it be applicable to airplanes propulsion?

Do you have any idea that could either reinforce or refute this hypothesis?..... perhaps the discussion might get interesting

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread18532/pg1

http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/project-winterhaven.html

http://www.theorionproject.org/en/movingbeyond_laviolette.html

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_flyingobjects44.htm

 

[Byeman]

1. There would be an increasing lack of interest in the development and financing of new conventional projects

2. If the same would happen with space projects, including the super cheap “Spaghetti Apollo”, that could mean that the new system has orbital potential.

3. If a new secret Manhattan Project is underway, we would all notice the lack of money. Is that not the case?

4. Does it not look a bit odd the little advancements in aero spatial industry, compared to that of the 40s and 60s?

5. Do you remember the propulsion system in the Russian submarine Red October? Wouldn’t it be applicable to airplanes propulsion?

1. No, not true. A-12 development continued even while CORONA was flying

2. HUH? explain

3. No, the money for the project would not come from visible sources.

4. No, have cars and trains changed much in the same timeframe?

5. No, it requires a nuclear reactor for power and a conductive or magnetic medium.

 

[Justo Miranda]

I appreciate your reasoning. I must apologize for using the “Spaghetti Apollo” term. I have read it somewhere and thought it to be more widely used. I was referring to the “Ares I” launch system of the NASA.

I believe the air is a conductive medium. My car was reached by a lightning once.

You are right in points 1-3 just up to this assertion about the project not being EXCESSIVELY expensive

Trains and cars do not evolve because they are part of a very expensive and inefficient transport system (roads and ways).
Would everything be transported by air, many interests would be affected

 

[Lauge]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread18532/pg1

http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/project-winterhaven.html

http://www.theorionproject.org/en/movingbeyond_laviolette.html

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_flyingobjects44.htm

You're joking, right?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

 

[Justo Miranda]

I have attached those links on the Winterhaven Project and Dr. Paul Laviolette theories because they are mentioned in the book "Secret Projects Flying Saucer Aircraft" pp 163-165, Midland 2006, by Bill Rose & Tony Buttler. It may be a joke, but not mine.
My objective is to obtain more opinions, not to be right.

 

[Justo Miranda]

From
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread18532/pg1

"In a March 1992 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology, entitled "Black world engineers, scientists, encourage using highly classified technology for civil applications" is explained how the B-2's sharp leading edge is charged to "many millions of volts", while the corresponding negative charge is blown out in the jets from the four engines. "

 

[sublight]

I'm pretty open to new theories but I have to draw the line at "above top secret".....

 

[Byeman]

I believe the air is a conductive medium. My car was reached by a lightning once.

no, air is an insulator. Arcing is not conduction.

 

[Byeman]

I appreciate your reasoning. I must apologize for using the “Spaghetti Apollo” term. I have read it somewhere and thought it to be more widely used. I was referring to the “Ares I” launch system of the NASA.

That is NASA's system and it is separate from the DOD. The DOD finding a "black" way to orbit would not affect NASA, until it is declassified.

 

[quellish]

You are saying that every aerospace related secret project from the 50's to late 60's is known in some form or fashion? I'm more likely to buy the proposal above that some are still buried because of their connection to follow on programs.

No, and I don't see how you are getting that from my post.

 

[quellish]

From
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread18532/pg1

"In a March 1992 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology, entitled "Black world engineers, scientists, encourage using highly classified technology for civil applications" is explained how the B-2's sharp leading edge is charged to "many millions of volts", while the corresponding negative charge is blown out in the jets from the four engines. "

There is a lot of significant, interesting backstory to this, but sadly it does not appear it was ever applied to the B-2.

 

[sferrin]

From
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread18532/pg1

"In a March 1992 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology, entitled "Black world engineers, scientists, encourage using highly classified technology for civil applications" is explained how the B-2's sharp leading edge is charged to "many millions of volts", while the corresponding negative charge is blown out in the jets from the four engines. "

There is a lot of significant, interesting backstory to this, but sadly it does not appear it was ever applied to the B-2.

And??? ???

 

[quellish]

And??? ???

And one of these days I'll either make a topic specifically about this and post there, or write a book about it. Some of the better material I have on this topic is not text and is not transcribed.

SO back on topic, are some projects "too secret"?
For the most part, no. The classification system works, to a point. Things are made secret or TS, TS/SCI for a reason. Where the system breaks most often is when things need to come *out* of the black. Once something disappears behind that curtain it can take on a life of it's own, and never come out without some outside stimulus. Without people like some of us here on the forum asking the right questions of the right people, a lot of things would not come under classification review.

A good example here is TIMBERWIND. TIMBERWIND (I know I am going to get corrected here, most likely by blackstar) was a particle bed reactor nuclear rocket engine project during the 80s. It was owned by SDIO, built by Yoyodyne Systems, and was primarily intended to power an interceptor missile, though there were plans for it to power heavy lift vehicles as well. TIMBERWIND was originally classified for good reason, but as the program progressed, a lot of bad decisions were made. Atmospheric flight tests were being planned without any public debate (and limited oversight), etc.
Disclosures about TIMBERWIND by sekrit projekts researchers was what triggered a more rigorous oversight process. Thankfully this is more the exception than the rule - black projects rarely run THIS amok. But it does happen, and TIMBERWIND should not have gone this far while black.

Keeping an active project black is terribly expensive. If you read Ben Rich's book you can see some examples of why. Most of these programs do not have a quarterly declassification review or anything like that - they stay black, and carry the costs associated with that, forever. It is not unusual for software developed for such a program to be superceded by a COTS software application. In an ideal world the customer would shut down and/or declassify the black program and buy the COTS application, but that does not happen.

 

[Stargazer]

The question is: if a "black" program leads such a separate existence of its own with little chance of being declassified, what chances that the technological breakthrough achieved through it can one day be implemented into white or plain civilian programs? Sometimes I get the impression that companies spend billions of dollars developing technologies in the white world that have existed for a lot of time in the black one...

 

[yasotay]

And??? ???

And one of these days I'll either make a topic specifically about this and post there, or write a book about it. Some of the better material I have on this topic is not text and is not transcribed.

SO back on topic, are some projects "too secret"?
For the most part, no. The classification system works, to a point. Things are made secret or TS, TS/SCI for a reason. Where the system breaks most often is when things need to come *out* of the black. Once something disappears behind that curtain it can take on a life of it's own, and never come out without some outside stimulus. Without people like some of us here on the forum asking the right questions of the right people, a lot of things would not come under classification review.

A good example here is TIMBERWIND. TIMBERWIND (I know I am going to get corrected here, most likely by blackstar) was a particle bed reactor nuclear rocket engine project during the 80s. It was owned by SDIO, built by Yoyodyne Systems, and was primarily intended to power an interceptor missile, though there were plans for it to power heavy lift vehicles as well. TIMBERWIND was originally classified for good reason, but as the program progressed, a lot of bad decisions were made. Atmospheric flight tests were being planned without any public debate (and limited oversight), etc.
Disclosures about TIMBERWIND by sekrit projekts researchers was what triggered a more rigorous oversight process. Thankfully this is more the exception than the rule - black projects rarely run THIS amok. But it does happen, and TIMBERWIND should not have gone this far while black.

Keeping an active project black is terribly expensive. If you read Ben Rich's book you can see some examples of why. Most of these programs do not have a quarterly declassification review or anything like that - they stay black, and carry the costs associated with that, forever. It is not unusual for software developed for such a program to be superceded by a COTS software application. In an ideal world the customer would shut down and/or declassify the black program and buy the COTS application, but that does not happen.

: Yes and if it had not been for the tireless efforts of the independent government scientific investigating team known as Buckaroo Banzai, the Yoyodyne Corp and its CEO John Warfin might have done serious damage to foreign policy as well as creating a huge flap in New Jersey...

 

[sublight]

The question is: if a "black" program leads such a separate existence of its own with little chance of being declassified, what chances that the technological breakthrough achieved through it can one day be implemented into white or plain civilian programs? Sometimes I get the impression that companies spend billions of dollars developing technologies in the white world that have existed for a lot of time in the black one...

But there are also REALLY AWESOME toys that civilian companies cant remotely afford to make...

 

[Justo Miranda]

I believe the air is a conductive medium. My car was reached by a lightning once.

no, air is an insulator. Arcing is not conduction.

Is it not possible to use ionized air in an atmospheric propulsion system?
Would it not be possible to adapt the ionic propulsion spatial engines to atmospheric use?
Perhaps with technologies based on the Hall effect thruster with the air accelerated by an electric field?
Would it not be possible to do it with strongly ionized air and a powerful energy source?
Please excuse my ignorance. It is just a theoretical question.

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Unsurprising: They were effectively protecting their buttocks more than national security and cynically used state's secrets as a way to avoid facing the music. Sadly it's become doctrine now...

 

[Kiltonge]

... I would have a break down if I helped invent the coolest thing ever and it just got "buried".

In the commercial non-aerospace World I worked on many projects that were never released, many of which we thought we had done well or particularly cleverly but which were cancelled by higher echelons. It didn't really bother me as I was still paid at the end of the month! Actually turned-out better because we didn't have to deal with customers

I couldn't put them on my CV but could still refer to them in general terms. I'm sure defence contractors can do so as well ( 'worked on hypersonic heat stagnation' )

 

[lastdingo]

As an aviation history journalist myself, I feel we need even more secrecy than we already have. For example, the F-22 has been developed in the open since day one and, I feel, the new foreign fighters being built today (witness the T-50) would not exist if not for the openess of the F-22 program. If the F-22 - the baddest ass fighter on the planet, had been developed in secret, it's head start would not be threatened for many years to come. But as it stands now, it will be threatened much sooner than it should have been. - my opinion.

Well then where are the foreign versions of the U2, SR71, B2, and F117???

West Germany had a F-117 equivalent (Lampyridae) by parallel invention, and it got cancelled because the Americans learned about it and asked for cancellation to enhance their secrecy.

The Russians had a TR-1 equivalent, but more importantly, they developed the MiG-25 to counter the XB-70 and thus created a Mach 3 interceptor that could have dealt with SR-71.
The Soviets did prefer short-lived low orbit satellites to the U.S. approach of SR-71, U-2 IIRC.

There was no need for a Soviet B-2 equivalent because the United States had given up on actually defending its airspace against Soviet bombers by the 70's in light of SLBMs and ICBMs. The remnants of the air defences would not have sufficed to cope with Tu-95 armed with ALCMs. There was thus no use for a B-2, not he least because the naval bomber role had the greatest survivability requirements for the spotter planes with their 600 km range radar (a radar power output that made any stealth approach pointless) and the visual ID confirmation planes (which would much better be supersonic than radar stealthy).

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

In the commercial non-aerospace World I worked on many projects that were never released, many of which we thought we had done well or particularly cleverly but which were cancelled by higher echelons. It didn't really bother me as I was still paid at the end of the month! Actually turned-out better because we didn't have to deal with customers

I couldn't put them on my CV but could still refer to them in general terms. I'm sure defence contractors can do so as well ( 'worked on hypersonic heat stagnation' )

Just to be clear, by commercial you mean non-military? I didn't know commercial projects were classifiable at all.

Weird, wild-stuff...

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

For the most part, no. The classification system works, to a point. Things are made secret or TS, TS/SCI for a reason. Where the system breaks most often is when things need to come *out* of the black. Once something disappears behind that curtain it can take on a life of it's own, and never come out without some outside stimulus.

Well yeah, it's one thing to classify it for a time when it's needed, but after that point: It should be declassified if that need lapses.

A good example here is TIMBERWIND. TIMBERWIND (I know I am going to get corrected here, most likely by blackstar) was a particle bed reactor nuclear rocket engine project during the 80s. It was owned by SDIO, built by Yoyodyne Systems, and was primarily intended to power an interceptor missile, though there were plans for it to power heavy lift vehicles as well.

I'm not an expert on Timberwind but I fail to see the use of a NTR as a missile interceptor -- that could have been met by simply developing the LIM-49 and Sprint system. There were already proposals that would allow greater intercept radii for the Spartan (with a smaller warhead), and variants of the Sprint that had a few times the maneuverability of the earlier design. There were also proposals for phased-array radar systems that were modular and would be more capable than the larger systems used for Sentinel/Safeguard.

The idea of developing a nuclear thermal rocket makes a lot more sense for heavy-lift or interplanetary flight because of the higher specific impulse. The idea is basically that of an orbital bombardment system. This idea wasn't entirely new, even in the 1980's, as there were already a number of concepts which included the following

1. Fractional Orbital Bombardment System (FOBS)
   • It was launched in a low orbit (81 nm) from south to north which would defeat our missile-defenses
   • It has enormous range (generally considered unlimited, but orbital decay does impose *some* limit, it's just huge)
   • It could be made to re-enter on command at a rather inopportune moment (which, with nuclear weapons, is anytime)
2. Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV)
   • As I understand it, North American was inspired by Convair's Pye Wacket
   • It would be launched into orbit, using either a nuclear-reactor or solar sail to power it
   • It could carry nuclear missiles, or control other orbital launch weapons which would either be placed into space by other platforms, or the LRV
   • Like the space-shuttle, it could re-enter the atmosphere for landing
3. Project Orion
   • It was a spacecraft that used nuclear bombs to propel it
     • The spacecraft looked a bit like a bullet
     • Attached to the back was a large blast-plate with shock absorbers
     • Nuclear bombs were deployed out a small hole in the back, which was then closed prior to the blast
     • The blast would be caught by the deflector at an adequate distance to not vaporize the spacecraft, but enough to propel it
     • The shock-absorbers would smoothly transmit the jarring loads to the spacecraft and occupants aboard it
   • There were several versions including a battleship, which included some kind of shaped nuclear plasma charge

While the LRV wasn't declassified until the late 1990's, I have no idea when Project Orion was declassified, the FOBS was known since the 1960's.

This system appears to have used such a propulsion system to get up to geosynchronous orbit.

 

[marauder2048]

I'm not an expert on Timberwind but I fail to see the use of a NTR as a missile interceptor -- that could have been met by simply developing the LIM-49 and Sprint system.

TIMBERWIND was so fast it was ascent phase capable against the SS-18. No derivative of Spartan or Sprint was doing that.

 

[sferrin]

What made me think about this one was something I heard Nick Cook (the aviation journalist) say about his struggles to find out details about some secret US projects. He felt that the public ought to know more about some classified projects especially when you take into account their vast costs. I agree. This isn't the Cold War any more.

Well that didn't age well.

 

[sferrin]

TIMBERWIND was so fast it was ascent phase capable against the SS-18. No derivative of Spartan or Sprint was doing that.

Do you have any information on this? I didn't know Timberwind had anything to do with ABMs.

 

[marauder2048]

TIMBERWIND was so fast it was ascent phase capable against the SS-18. No derivative of Spartan or Sprint was doing that.

Do you have any information on this? I didn't know Timberwind had anything to do with ABMs.

Well..you did know at some point

Timberwind Unwound
One of the mysteries surrounding the highly
classified S.D.I. Timberwind program to develop a nuclear
rocket engine is. the question of why S.D.I. would need a
nuclear rocket in the first place.

The answer, according to multiple sources, is that
Timberwind is intended for potential use in a ground based
anti-ballistic missile (ABM). In this concept, a
nuclear engine would serve as the second stage of such an
ABM interceptor missile.

The Timberwind technology is .distinguished by its
potentially high thrust-to-weight ratio. (Indeed, the
abbreviation "T/W," signifying "thrust to weight ratio," may
have inspired the codename "Timberwind.")
Newly obtained project documents indicate that an
ABM interceptor with a nuclear engine could travel 3000
kilometers or more within 5 to 6 minutes.

 

[fredymac]

Since this is the Bar and the topic is fast acceleration:

 

[sferrin]

Since this is the Bar and the topic is fast acceleration:

I think that rocket motor is far more interesting. LOL (Also the cartoon is missing quite a bit.)

 

[edwest4]

So... too secret. Like that means anything in the real world of highly classified programs. A former US Vice President summed up the situation quite well: "There are things we know. There are things we know we don't know. And there are things we don't know we don't know. That last one is the problem."

1) Take any new aircraft that gets revealed to the world. Once you see that shape in real life, and eyeball it from every angle, you look for lines and details you've never seen before. If you're in arerospace, you may see a wing - fuselage - canard angle combination that clicks with you. A mental note about what's possible is made in your head, because you know this thing can fly.

2) Intelligence comes in about some enemy program that has some bits and pieces in it that point to something but you know you don't know enough to draw any firm conclusions.

3) A program not only meets but exceeds its design goals. Perhaps a few unique items are produced in the process. It's at least 5 years ahead of anything the enemy has. You don't tell anybody.

 

[marauder2048]

So... too secret. Like that means anything in the real world of highly classified programs. A former US Vice President summed up the situation quite well: "There are things we know. There are things we know we don't know. And there are things we don't know we don't know. That last one is the problem."

Which former US Vice President was that?

 

[Fluff]

So... too secret. Like that means anything in the real world of highly classified programs. A former US Vice President summed up the situation quite well: "There are things we know. There are things we know we don't know. And there are things we don't know we don't know. That last one is the problem."

Which former US Vice President was that?

It was Rumsfeld, he was Def sec. and he wasnt talking about secret projects, he was talking about intelligence, of the enemy type.

To expand, and revert to topic.

Options:

There are secret things, that havent been made public

Or

There are no successful secret things, thus nothing to make public, and yes toilet seats do cost $100,000

Beyond that the question cannot be answered. I refer you to Schrodinger.

 

[marauder2048]

Isn't the story that the Carter administration was compelled to disclose ATB because of the hammering it was taking for cancelling B-1?

Some undisclosed SAPs are probably the way they are because they are potential or actual treaty violations.

 

[quellish]

Well yeah, it's one thing to classify it for a time when it's needed, but after that point: It should be declassified if that need lapses.

IIRC a mandatory declassification review process was introduced during the Clinton presidency. The idea being that after X years a declassification review would happen, and that would result in things being declassified unless there was a good reason not to. In practice it didn't work out that way.

I'm not an expert on Timberwind but I fail to see the use of a NTR as a missile interceptor -- that could have been met by simply developing the LIM-49 and Sprint system.

TIMBERWIND had a very high thrust to weight ratio. It was to have much, much better performance than existing rocket propulsion systems. It may have been a solution looking for a problem. After TIMBERWIND was "outed" it transitioned to a USAF program as an upper stage development program, with the sensitive parts still funded under PE 0603105F "OLYMPIC".

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

IIRC a mandatory declassification review process was introduced during the Clinton presidency.

Really? I thought declassification usually occurred after a certain number of years before that time.

TIMBERWIND had a very high thrust to weight ratio. It was to have much, much better performance than existing rocket propulsion systems. It may have been a solution looking for a problem. After TIMBERWIND was "outed" it transitioned to a USAF program as an upper stage development program

It's T/W ratio was better than the Dumbo design from the 1950's? Some of those were pretty high.

 

[marauder2048]

After TIMBERWIND was "outed

Why was it de-SAP'ed?