Messerschmitt Designations until 1945

Michel Van

Michel Van

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Known Messerschmitt Projects Numbers
P.1091 a modified Me 109 G with Daimler Benz 605A & turbo loader
P.1092 Jet Fighter with one Jumo 004C engine and arrow wing
P.1093 unknow
P.1094 unknow
P.1095 that became Me328A

There indication that number 1092 to 1095 was part design for one single engine Jetfighter
But there is little catch to it: P.1092E
This a modified Me262 as two pilot Night fighter with v-tail unit proposed in 1943
 
P1034 - 109
P1035 - modular twin engine, evolved into 110, 161, 163
P1059 - 209 racer
P1061 - 4 engine long range recon, predecessor to the 264
P1062 - 2 engine long range recon
P1064 - 261
P1065 - 262
P1075 - 264
P1073 - parasite fighter, initially based on 328 but evolved into a new design. One BMW003
P1079 - single seat jet studies
P1085 - medium bomber
P1091 - high alt fighter, probably not 109H but derived from the 109
 
Hi,

P.1012 two-seat low wing mail aircraft Project
P.1020 light biplane (M-23)
P.1051 Bf.163
P.1053 Bf.164
P.1060 fighter-bomber led to develop Bf.110
P.1068 Julia
P.1070 jet fighter
P.1097 pulse jet fighter
P.1099 heavy fighter
 
sienar said:
P1091 - high alt fighter, probably not 109H but derived from the 109
Click to expand...

The P. 1091 was Propellor High altitude Fighter and had 3 different Version

P. 1091/I
based on Me 109 G-5 with enlarged tail unit.
Engine a DB 605 A and a DB 603 as Turbo loader
weapons: 1x 30mm MK 108, 2x 20mm MG 151/20

P. 1091/II
here fuselage extends at stern, enlarge Wingspan

P. 1091/III
Complete new fuselage
Engine a DB 605 A with TKL-15 Turbo loader with two counterrotating propellors


Source:
Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945 volume 3, page 244.
Heinz j. Nowarra
 
hesham said:
P.1060 fighter-bomber led to develop Bf.110
Click to expand...

That can't be right, the project number is too high to be the 110 unless messerschmitt went out of sequence. Did you mean 210?
 
The P.1099 concept was originally a development of Me 262 as a bomber with several crew in a new fuselage and Jumo 004 C or HeS 011 engines.
Specification :
- span ................ 12,613 m ;
- lenght .............. 12,000 m ;
- height .............. 4,430 m ;
- wing area ......... 22,000 m2 ;
- empty weight .... 5.061 kg ;
- max. weight ...... 8.762 kg ;
- max. speed ....... 805 km/h at 9.100 m ;
- service ceiling .... 9.810 m ;
- range ................ 1.340 km.
The P.1099 project heavy fighter variant designated P.1099 B has three men crew, wings and tail of the Me 262 A-1a and Jumo 004 C engines.

From " Niemieckie Projekty Lotnicze - Myśliwce 1935 - 1945 " by Marek Ryś, Wydawnictwo Stratus, 2011.
 
Not doing the >1100 series yet

P1012 - two-seat low wing fast mailplane (1932)
P1020 - light training biplane (1932)
P1034 - 109
P1035 - modular twin engine, evolved into 110, 161, 163
P1051 - 163
P1053 - 164
P1059 - 209 V1
P1060 - 210
P1061 - 4 engine long range recon, predecessor to the 264
P1062 - 2 engine long range recon
P1064 - 261 - 1937
P1065 - 262
P1068 - Julia
P1070 - Jet fighter
P1075 - 264
P1073 - parasite fighter, initially based on 328 but evolved into a new design. One BMW003
P1075 - P1061 with 6 engines
P1079 - project series from Rudolf Seitz, fast bomber with pulse engines, numerous variants (spring/summer 41)
P1085 - medium bomber
P1090 - push-pull piston multipuspose aircraft (42/43)
P1091 - high alt fighter, NOT 109H - July 1943
/I - based on 109g-5, enlarged tail, 605A or 603 with Turbo, 1xmk108 2xmg151
/II - entended fuselage and wing
/III - all new fuse, 605a with TKl-15 turbo, counterrotating props
1091a - 209H (109 gallery)
P1092 - various single engine jet fighter studies
P1095 - 328
P1097 - pulse jet fighter
P1099 - 262 bomber with crew in new nose, 004c or 011
/b - three crew, wing/tail of 262a-1a, 004c engines
 
sienar said:
Not doing the >1100 series yet

P1012 - two-seat low wing fast mailplane (1932)
P1020 - light training biplane (1932)
P1034 - 109
P1035 - modular twin engine, evolved into 110, 161, 163
P1051 - 163
P1053 - 164
P1059 - 209 V1
P1060 - 210
P1061 - 4 engine long range recon, predecessor to the 264
P1062 - 2 engine long range recon
P1064 - 261 - 1937
P1065 - 262
P1068 - Julia
P1070 - Jet fighter
P1075 - 264
P1073 - parasite fighter, initially based on 328 but evolved into a new design. One BMW003
P1075 - P1061 with 6 engines
P1079 - project series from Rudolf Seitz, fast bomber with pulse engines, numerous variants (spring/summer 41)
P1085 - medium bomber
P1090 - push-pull piston multipuspose aircraft (42/43)
P1091 - high alt fighter, NOT 109H - July 1943
/I - based on 109g-5, enlarged tail, 605A or 603 with Turbo, 1xmk108 2xmg151
/II - entended fuselage and wing
/III - all new fuse, 605a with TKl-15 turbo, counterrotating props
1091a - 209H (109 gallery)
P1092 - various single engine jet fighter studies
P1095 - 328
P1097 - pulse jet fighter
P1099 - 262 bomber with crew in new nose, 004c or 011
/b - three crew, wing/tail of 262a-1a, 004c engines
Click to expand...

The P 1079/13a P 1079/13c (for which no known drawing exists) became the Me 328, not the P 1095. And the P 1099 had an all-new fuselage, not just the nose.
 
newsdeskdan said:
The P 1079/13a (for which no known drawing exists) became the Me 328, not the P 1095. And the P 1099 had an all-new fuselage, not just the nose.
Click to expand...
There's a designation Project 1079/17 in the beginning of 1942 changed to Me 328, which is stated in my source - " Samoloty Luftwaffe " vol. 2
by Marek Murawski, Wydawnictwo Lampart, Warszawa 1997, but I won't argue. I'm not specially interested in the late Nazi projects :)
 
Boogey said:
newsdeskdan said:
The P 1079/13a (for which no known drawing exists) became the Me 328, not the P 1095. And the P 1099 had an all-new fuselage, not just the nose.
Click to expand...
There's a designation Project 1079/17 in the beginning of 1942 changed to Me 328 in my source - " Samoloty Luftwaffe " vol. 2 by Marek Murawski, Wydawictwo Lampart, Warszawa 1997, but I won't argue, I'm not specially interested in the late Nazi projects :)
Click to expand...

Oh, you won't argue? That's nice. My source is the original P 1079 project documents from Messerschmitt.
 

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It seems Mr. Murawski has right and he knows what he's writing ... Ahough airplane in the drawing above doesn't look like the Me 328.
 
Boogey said:
It seems Mr. Murawski has right and he knows what he's writing ...
Click to expand...

Has right... what? Mr Murawski is wrong on this occasion. You will notice that I posted a picture of the P 1079/17. It has a single engine, internally mounted. The Me 328 A and B were twin-engine designs, with the engines mounted externally.
 
Boogey said:
It seems Mr. Murawski has right and he knows what he's writing ... Ahough airplane in the drawing above doesn't look like the Me 328.
Click to expand...

Or maybe you think the P 1079/16 is a better candidate?
 

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Boogey said:
It seems Mr. Murawski has right and he knows what he's writing ... Ahough airplane in the drawing above doesn't look like the Me 328.
Click to expand...

How about the P 1079/15?
 

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OK, I'm out of this topic. I'd better look for informations of the Polikarpov I-9 and I-10 projects. Those interesting me much more.
 
Boogey said:
OK, I'm out of this topic. I'd better look for informations of the Polikarpov I-9 and I-10 projects. Those interesting me much more.
Click to expand...

;)
 
I look again into my Source
Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945 volume 3, by Heinz j. Nowarra

P.1059 Me 209
P.1064 Me 261
P.1065 Me 262

P.1092 singel seat jet fighter, Swept wing, power by Jumo 004C Version A and B
Interesting is in Other literature mention a P.1092E
This 1943 proposal is a modified Me262 as two pilot as Night fighter with v-tail unit

P.1099 Allwetterjäger (all weather hunter) based on Me 262 but new fuselage 2 pilots
2 Jumo004C later He S 011 A
Weapons: 4 Machine canons MK108 (studies were also other weapon configurations)

P.1100 similar to P.1099 but weapons are 2 FPL 151 (what ever that is, i don't know this)

P.1101 - P.1106 - P.1110 - P.1111 and P. 1116 Jagteinsitzer (single seat jet fighter )
under direction of W. Voigt
RLM demands He S 011 engine and 4 Machine canons MK108

P.1102 enlarged version of P.1101 as unarmed fast bomber with 3 BMW 003 Jet engines
P.1104 Objektschutz Raketen Jäger - Messerschmitt proposal against Baches Ba. 349
power by HWK 109-509 A-2 rocket engine
Weapons: one Machine canons MK108

P.1107 jetBomber with Swept wing and 4 jet engines. two design study

P.1108 Messerschmitt proposal for Göring "1000x1000x1000 bomber"

P.1109 designation is unclear because Only surviving document is heavy damage, so could be another P.number !
W. Voigt proposed on based Blohm & Voss P.202 a aircraft with Variable-geometry oblique wing as bi-plane.
there unknown project form Messerschmitt feature a Aircraft with X wings that could be related to P.1109.

P.1110 single seat jet fighter, Swept wing made from Wood with He S 011 engine and 3 Machine canons MK108
two design study one with V tail

P.1111 singel seat jet fighter build complete in Metal with He S 011 engine and 4 Machine canons MK108
very advance aerodynamics

P.1112 successor to P.1111 cockpit redesign and better armour-plating

P.1116 modifikation on P.1106 shorter Wingspan

So far i know ended with number 1116 the studies at Messerschmitt in 1945.
there several project who hab no Project Number
and were label as "Zerstorer", "Wildgans", "Schwalbe" "Wespe" and "Libelle"
also unnamed Jet bomber probably related to P.1108 as competition to Arado Ar 234 V 8
 
Michel Van said:
I look again into my Source
Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945 volume 3, by Heinz j. Nowarra

P.1059 Me 209
P.1064 Me 261
P.1065 Me 262

P.1092 singel seat jet fighter, Swept wing, power by Jumo 004C Version A and B
Interesting is in Other literature mention a P.1092E
This 1943 proposal is a modified Me262 as two pilot as Night fighter with v-tail unit

P.1099 Allwetterjäger (all weather hunter) based on Me 262 but new fuselage 2 pilots
2 Jumo004C later He S 011 A
Weapons: 4 Machine canons MK108 (studies were also other weapon configurations)

P.1100 similar to P.1099 but weapons are 2 FPL 151 (what ever that is, i don't know this)

P.1101 - P.1106 - P.1110 - P.1111 and P. 1116 Jagteinsitzer (single seat jet fighter )
under direction of W. Voigt
RLM demands He S 011 engine and 4 Machine canons MK108

P.1102 enlarged version of P.1101 as unarmed fast bomber with 3 BMW 003 Jet engines
P.1104 Objektschutz Raketen Jäger - Messerschmitt proposal against Baches Ba. 349
power by HWK 109-509 A-2 rocket engine
Weapons: one Machine canons MK108

P.1107 jetBomber with Swept wing and 4 jet engines. two design study

P.1108 Messerschmitt proposal for Göring "1000x1000x1000 bomber"

P.1109 designation is unclear because Only surviving document is heavy damage, so could be another P.number !
W. Voigt proposed on based Blohm & Voss P.202 a aircraft with Variable-geometry oblique wing as bi-plane.
there unknown project form Messerschmitt feature a Aircraft with X wings that could be related to P.1109.

P.1110 single seat jet fighter, Swept wing made from Wood with He S 011 engine and 3 Machine canons MK108
two design study one with V tail

P.1111 singel seat jet fighter build complete in Metal with He S 011 engine and 4 Machine canons MK108
very advance aerodynamics

P.1112 successor to P.1111 cockpit redesign and better armour-plating

P.1116 modifikation on P.1106 shorter Wingspan

So far i know ended with number 1116 the studies at Messerschmitt in 1945.
there several project who hab no Project Number
and were label as "Zerstorer", "Wildgans", "Schwalbe" "Wespe" and "Libelle"
also unnamed Jet bomber probably related to P.1108 as competition to Arado Ar 234 V 8
Click to expand...

The P 1107 was a competitor for the Ju 287 and H XVIII in the Langstreckenbomber competition - please see my Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers bookazine for photos of pages from the original project report. P 1108 had nothing to do with 1000 x 1000 x 1000 - it was designed as a follow-on from the Langstreckenbomber competition before being handed to Junkers and combined into the EF 130 (according to interviews with Bolkow, who supervised the P 1107 and P 1108 projects). P 1116 seems to have been derived from an error made in German Aircraft: New and Projected Types. In interview, Voigt says P 1112 was the last one. The animal names types have been largely discredited (I've no wish to reignite that conversation - it's already been played out in full elsewhere in this forum).
 
Thanks for info, newsdeskdan

But my knowledge, is based on my source material, the Error, if this one, is by Heinz j. Nowarra.

on The animal names types, Part of those designs were found in France ! (according Nowarra.)
Messerschmitt worked together with French Aircraft Factories during occupation of France.

For the designation let's keep out the Animal names
 
Michel Van said:
the Error, if this one,
Click to expand...

Nowarra was better than some but more recent research has overturned some of his assertions. I guess you didn't see my Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers bookazine. In that case, here's a page from the Langstreckenbomber project comparison report and three pages from CIOS XXXI-3 German High Speed Airplanes and Design Development which make it reasonably clear that the P 1108 was intended to carry far more than 1000kg of bombs (4000kg) much further than 1000km (7000km) at speeds of substantially less than 1000km/h (800km/h).

As to the animal names types and the designs being found in France, I hadn't heard that before. My understanding, from Pawlas, was that they were simply handed to him by an anonymous individual and he published them with the caveat that they might not be genuine. As I've outlined elsewhere, if you compare the P 1106 and P 1108 drawings he printed in Luftfahrt International alongside provably genuine drawings of the P 1106 and P 1108, you can see that they share some traits but are generally inaccurate (e.g. P 1106 undercarriage is way off) and the style of the drawings is evidently wrong. There's no factory standard info panel on any of them either and they generally seem dissimilar to Messerschmitt drawings taken as a whole.
Something else interesting about one of them - looking at the 'Libelle', you can see that it looks rather similar to that early P 1101 drawing that also appears on these pages elsewhere. In fact, from a forward view, they could be the same. This doesn't seem like a coincidence. It seems, to me, more like someone got a look at the original designs, then tried to recreate them years later from memory.
One thing that comes over very strongly from the various reports about French aircraft manufacturers working for the Germans is that the Germans didn't trust them with any more information than they absolutely had to. Those French companies that did work on jet designs such as the Me 262 or Ar 234 usually only built one section of them, a wingtip or a fin for example - never the full aircraft. It seems unlikely that the Germans would have handed over cutting edge designs to untrustworthy subcontractors just before the Liberation (that P 1101 was drawn in July, Messerschmitt's 'partner' companies were liberated in August).
 

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Michel Van said:
Thanks for info, newsdeskdan

But my knowledge, is based on my source material, the Error, if this one, is by Heinz j. Nowarra.

on The animal names types, Part of those designs were found in France ! (according Nowarra.)
Messerschmitt worked together with French Aircraft Factories during occupation of France.
Click to expand...

Or another possibility:
In April 1945, Profs Messerschmitt and Madelung were first arrested by members of the French forces (MIST: Mission d'Information Scientifique et Technique) before been handed over to the American ones.
The MIST also found one part of Messerschmitt archives at Wertach (Around 2500 documents, including drawings of the P.1101, that were translated at Paris by the STAe -Service Technique de l'Aéronautique- before being transmitted 3 weeks later to the Allied, early in June).
Source: Fanatique de l'Aviation, "1945: Les Français capturent Willy Messerschmitt" by Olivier Huwart. September & October 2001 issues.
 
Willy Messerschmit, Pioneer of Aviation Design states that the project list was maintained by Hans Hornung, who told the Americans when interrogated that the list ended at 1112. However there were some designs that were not assigned project numbers or were not part of the master list, principally lippisch designs.

Also noteworthy is that it mentions that Willy Messerschmitt personally participated very extensively in design work on P1107, with an eye to post-war commercial use of a similar design/layout. I would guess that any such passenger design would be kept off the master list for obvious reasons.

retrofit1 said:
Or another possibility:
In April 1945, Profs Messerschmitt and Madelung were first arrested by members of the French forces (MIST: Mission d'Information Scientifique et Technique) before been handed over to the American ones.
The MIST also found one part of Messerschmitt archives at Wertach (Around 2500 documents, including drawings of the P.1101, that were translated at Paris by the STAe -Service Technique de l'Aéronautique- before being transmitted 3 weeks later to the Allied, early in June).
Source: Fanatique de l'Aviation, "1945: Les Français capturent Willy Messerschmitt" by Olivier Huwart. September & October 2001 issues.
Click to expand...

AIAA - Paperclips French Style 2009-962 gives a couple extra details

"Robert J Woods arrived in Oberammergau on May 21 1945. The Americans were searching Voldemar Voigt, the
designer of Project P1101; Voigt tell them about the four caches, Woods and his team found the first three very
rapidly. The fourth canister was hidden in the basement of a house in Wertach (Allgau), the French Army was there
and had found 23 canisters and 8 metal tubes. This finding was important some 2500 documents, around 400 to 450
most important documents were totalling some 30000 pages: Technical notes, plans for the turbojet fighter project
Me P1101, with two set of wing sweep values."
 
Hi,

for saying the P.1116 was not existed,I suspect in that,because the first Messerschmitt
Project after WWII was P.1118,that meant there was a series until P.1117 at least.
 
hesham said:
Hi,

for saying the P.1116 was not existed,I suspect in that,because the first Messerschmitt
Project after WWII was P.1118,that meant there was a series until P.1117 at least.
Click to expand...

And you have concrete evidence that Messerschmitt's first postwar design was the P 1118? From a primary source document? Post it up.
I know you are a great advocate of the P 1116 but all contemporary German sources (e.g. interviews with Voigt and Hornung) agree that the P 1112 was the last wartime Messerschmitt type. Their war was over and they wanted jobs with the Americans - what possible (non-ridiculous conspiracy theory) reason could they have for lying about the existence of four super super secret projects, especially when they knew the Americans had captured all their project papers?
Have a look at the attached page. It is the only shred of contemporary evidence (A.I.2(G) Report No. 2383 German Aircraft: New and Projected Types) that supports the existence of a P 1116. Read what it says:
"This project is similar in outline to the P 1101 except that the pilot sits at the tail end of the fuselage behind the fuel tank. Performance was not improved and design resulted in bad visibility for the pilot."
It's describing the P 1106. There is no P 1116 - it's just one mistake in one source, 72 years ago. Maybe it's time to correct it and move on.
 

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OK my dear Dan,

but what was about P.1113 & P.1114 ?.
 
Here it was; Willy Messerschmitt-Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues,

it's a first known Project as I expected
 

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hesham said:
Here it was; Willy Messerschmitt-Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues,

it's a first known Project as I expected
Click to expand...

So no primary source then.
 
hesham said:
Here it was; Willy Messerschmitt-Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues,

it's a first known Project as I expected
Click to expand...

"Willy Messerschmitt begann schon bald unter der Bezeichnung Me 108 W (W für Weiterentwicklung) auf seine Art das Flugzeug neu zu konstruieren. Es entstand Blatt auf Blatt mit seinen Skizzen und Gewichtsvorgaben. Hans Hornung legte die aerodynamischen Daten fest, machte die Leistungsberechnungen und gab dem Projekt die Nr. P 1118. (Damit war dieses eines der ersten Messerschmitt-Luftfahrt- Projekte nach dem Krieg, im Anschluß an die alte Projekt- Nummernliste, die 1945 mit dem Projekt 1112 geendet hatte.) Diese Arbeiten zogen sich ohne Dringlichkeit bis 1955 hin. "

From the very same book......
 
sienar said:
hesham said:
Here it was; Willy Messerschmitt-Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues,

it's a first known Project as I expected
Click to expand...

"Willy Messerschmitt begann schon bald unter der Bezeichnung Me 108 W (W für Weiterentwicklung) auf seine Art das Flugzeug neu zu konstruieren. Es entstand Blatt auf Blatt mit seinen Skizzen und Gewichtsvorgaben. Hans Hornung legte die aerodynamischen Daten fest, machte die Leistungsberechnungen und gab dem Projekt die Nr. P 1118. (Damit war dieses eines der ersten Messerschmitt-Luftfahrt- Projekte nach dem Krieg, im Anschluß an die alte Projekt- Nummernliste, die 1945 mit dem Projekt 1112 geendet hatte.) Diese Arbeiten zogen sich ohne Dringlichkeit bis 1955 hin. "

From the very same book......
Click to expand...

That's sorted then - case closed.
 
we can do change to List

P.1085 is not Medium Bomber

according document, newsdeskdan posted in SPF
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3862.msg329235.html#msg329235
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3862.msg329251.html#msg329251

is P.1085 a long range Bomber with range of 15000 km
Its a Modified Me 264 with stretch fuselage and enlarge Wings with 6 engines.
 
Hi,

in "Bf" series,we know Bf.108,Bf.109,Bf.110,Bf.161,Bf.162,Bf.163,
Bf.164 (MeC.164) & Bf.165,was that any more ?.
 
Hi,

Messerschmitt used for draft aircraft in early of the beginning for his company the "Entwurf",which probably started from number 1 to number 29,the later was a light airplane,and maybe from 1930,he invented the 1xxx series.
 
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hesham said:
What was Messerschmitt P.1008 ?.

Click to expand...

May this P.1008 was one of these projects,

- During the BFW period,Mr. Willy Messerschmitt had many little known Projects,most of them wasn't in "M" series,such as, a two seat trainer,who hear about it ?.

- During BFW period,Messerschmitt designed a postal airplane Project,maybe taken
the "P" designation

- He designed under BFW period,a heavy transport airplane Project

- Messerschmitt designed another heavy transport airplane Project,
powered by two BMW Hornet engines

- During BFW period,Messerschmitt designed a high-speed postal airplane Project,
intended for Canada

 
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