The would-be Heinkel "He 279 Spirale"/"He 519"/"He 536"/"X"

hesham

hesham

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My dears,

I saw a really unknown aircraft,and it was completing aircraft in the
picture,with someone in the cockpit and anther man in the ground,
may be it was a fake,I don't know,but all I remembered that the
members say it was a Heinkel design.
 

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Hi fightingirish,

That was the aircraft I meant,but the anther picture to it showed the pilot
sitted in the cockpit and in anther site,not airwarfareforum.
 
IF it would have been real, I think everybody will agree, that it was just a prototype, not a series a/c.
... a prototype with nose art would have been a rare sight in the german inventory, I think.
... look a the detail photo, showing the canopy and engine. The engine is VERY close to the
cockpit.
..... look at the front view. Even, if the man (pilot ?) standing at the prop and has stature of at
least 1,80 m, I think, span would have been less than 10m. Not very much for an a/c with
an H-engine, which probably would be quite large.
I would agree with Jan van de Heuvels comment, that these photos really aren't faked, but are
real photos from 1944/45, ... but I'm sure, they don't show a real aircraft. In the context with
this post in the airwarfareforum, I searched for infos about german decoys. No, I didn't find
this "aircraft", but I get to now, that the germans were forced to improve there decoys step by
step, as primitive tinkers simply were ignored . So that' my favoured solution for this mystery.
a reutilisation of several old aircraft parts, maybe quite a lot from the He 280.
 
Hi,

For the strange prototype,I think it was not He-180,but there is
two suggestions (just suggestions);

The first,it was a really built of He-519 high speed bomber.

The second it was the first prototype of He-536 which mentioned
in old resource and in Arabic magazine as the aircarft proceeded
the Volksjager of which later redesigned or developed into He-162.

Unfortunately I don't find it now ,but I will search about it.
 

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I'd always heard that photo was a fake as well. I think there was a discussion here about it when Secret Projects first opened, but I can't remember. Time to dig out that search tool!
 
I already mentioned it in the Airwareforum, but again here :
The strongest argument, that it wasn't a real aircraft, still is the well known
german bureaucracy ! Even when fuel, material and workforce was in short
supply, paper wasn't ! At the end of the war, no german aircraft company
would have dared to built an aircraft without official permission and this
would have produced piles of paper, weighing more, than the aircraft itself.
Of course, many archives were destroyed, but if this aircraft would have been,
say the He 536, or whatsoever, documents about it would have been spread all
over the german aviation industry ! At least some of them would have survived,
as even drawings of the silliest projects came up after the war !
(Although, to be honest, I'm not really sure, that all german designers stopped
their work in 1945 ! )
I think, documents about unknown projects still may be found, or photos of still
unknown versions or modifications, but not about totally unknown types, that really
have been built. Boys, stop dreaming !
 
Think we can easely accept that there never were such
projects like the ''Heinkel X" or the ''He-536''.
Indeed ,to much has already been dreamed up about German WW II projects...
 
I wish I remember where I'd read it, but there was someone who had debunked that photo as a fake and had what seemed like a pretty good case for it being bogus as well.
 
Jemiba said:
I already mentioned it in the Airwareforum, but again here :
The strongest argument, that it wasn't a real aircraft, still is the well known
german bureaucracy ! Even when fuel, material and workforce was in short
supply, paper wasn't ! At the end of the war, no german aircraft company
would have dared to built an aircraft without official permission and this
would have produced piles of paper, weighing more, than the aircraft itself.
Click to expand...

Except Heinkel produced the He-219, without official sanction. Messerschimtt also produced the Me-209, unofficially (and I'm not referring to the speed breaking aircraft but the later incarnation with an annular radiater).

Personally I suspect this is a test aircraft, produced "in house" to try out several technologies - mid mounted engine, tricycle undercarriage - both not normally seen in German designs. I suspect it never appeared as an official design.
 
The construction of th He 219 prototype was ordered by the RLM in March 1941,
although not as a nightfighter, but as a multi role aircraft (and that's the reason,
why the Northrop P-61 was the worlds first "true nightfighter", developed as such
from the start).
The Me 209 wasn't a new type, but just a modication of the record aircraft, first built
in 1938 . Building, and not just designing a new aircraft from scratch, couldn't be done
by just a handful of people, even in the forties.
Unknown designs, ok, but built, flyable ,unknown ad completely new types ?
And in other fora, more engaged in WWII aviation, these photos seem to be regarded
as fakes, the theme is more or less dead.
But I don't want to shatter anyones hopes in a deciphered mystery, but I think, unless
there appear other evidences, it's no longer a theme. There are too much arguments
against and too few for it ...

It's just a pity for Jan van de Heuvel, who probbly paid a lot of money for those photos .. :'(
 
Several pictures circulate of the so-called "Heinkel He 279 Spirale" prototype.

If this aircraft was actually built and tested, it is surprising that it never appeared, even in mention, in any publication prior to the advent of the internet.

I'm attaching the pictures but I would like to hear from better specialists of German aviation whether the case of the "He 279" has been closed for good. In other words, do we have now absolute certainty that this was a fake and not a genuine, perhaps company-funded, obscure prototype?
 

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Here is a long shot- Does anyone know of some expert on the German movie industry during WWII? I know they did some spectacular stuff, like a "Titanic"movie that was distributed around 1944. IIRC, some of the second unit footage was used in "A Night to Remember"
 
Hi,


may be this bird was a fake,but I tried to make zoom in the pictures,and I found some
parts are matching and the other are not.


All I know,many Germany aircraft projects had been obscured on public until this days,
and if we consider it is real prototype,I think it never completed,and for He.279,a friend
to me told me before,it was a real design,but the present of He.280 and Messerschmitt
Me.262 killed its development.
 
We had this type (?) here, although now the link to our old thread doesn't work anymore. Ok, now we
have the third may-be-designation, not changing the facts about the engine, that would have been positioned
with its forward end in the pilots butt, the very small span compared to the man in front and ... and .. and.
Maybe the idea by royalbulgaf is quite a good one, probably better, than mine of a decoy made by using unused
He 280 parts. The movie industry was still busy in the closing parts of WW II and probably would have had access
to resources.
And no, AFAIK we have no certain proof, that those photos are fakes. But all arguments against the He 117/279/536
being an actually built type are still valid, to my humble opinion. For those designations, we not even have projects
drawings and then a complete prototype should have been built ? During our holidays, I've read "Die Rakete und das
Reich" (The Rocket and the Reich - Peenemünde and the Coming of the Ballistic Missile Era) by Michael J. Neufeld.
Although about a different subject, the procedures needed for the realisation of a technical project are described
quite well. And as a result it left at least for me certainty, that building such an aircraft as a "private venture", without
official backing without doubt would have resulted in a number of very severe sentences !
 
I like the movie prop idea, certainly the German film industry maintained production of lavish productions until the end of the war. It could also have been a bit of deception like the He-113. Maybe the RLM and Heinkel produced this fake from the He-280 prototypes to convince the Allies they had modern bomber interceptors or to cover the existence of the jet-programme by suggesting the He-280 was a propeller-aircraft all along but for some reason was never implemented. It's all speculation now, but there's no doubt its a well constructed fake, not the sort of crude film models we often see in old movies and the effort taken suggests someone had a good enough reason to build it.
 
Jemiba said:
And as a result it left at least for me certainty, that building such an aircraft as a "private venture", without
official backing without doubt would have resulted in a number of very severe sentences !
Click to expand...

Although I seem to recall one of the late war bomber projects was quietly continued after an order was made to cease all work.

It is interesting to note that entire parts of research teams were taken out, along with a lot of records and equipment in the last days of the war - so anything is possible. However, I too, suspect it is a fake. There is a much smaller likelihood that it is disinformation and a minuscule likelihood that it was an emergency interceptor designed around spare parts (similar to the late/second Lippish P.15 design).

Has anyone tried doing a rough cg calculation on it? Something just feels wrong regarding the center of lift and the wheel layout...
 
It still was a difference, I think, if work on a project was continued, or actually started. And not only, that
it would have been a completely new type of aircraft, it would have had a completely new engine, too !
So, the traces every built aircraft leaves, should be complemented ba those of the engine. Don't know in
the moment, which German H-engine was actually built and tested ? AFAIK, none was used operationally
and here it is fitted into a new fuselage ? The aircraft sports insignias of a service type, even with nose
art. Only similar case known to me, was the He 100 used for propaganda reasons. But then, it would have
had to be known to the officials ! Is there much sense to decorate a type as propagande gimmick, which was
built in secrecy by some conspirators ?
From the frontal view, I would estimate the wing span of the type to have been less than 9 meters, less than
the Bf 109. And such a machine fitted with a probably quite large engine ?
And as Avimimus seconds, several details of this type look wrong, for me the most important is the position of the
engine in relation to the cockpit.
I'm not sure, that those photos were faked in our sense (via PS or similar), but I'm pretty sure that they don't
show a real type. If built as a decoy, or for a movie, I don't know and such things probably wouldn't have left
many traces, so finding no more clues wouldn't be too surprising.
 
Maybe the RLM and Heinkel produced this fake from the He-280 prototypes to convince the Allies they had modern bomber interceptors or to cover the existence of the jet-programme by suggesting the He-280 was a propeller-aircraft all along but for some reason was never implemented.

Now this is an interesting possibility. That prop looks like something from a He 177. As far as I know, there was no H-engine developed by Germany. The exhaust pipes on the coupled DB engines would be much lower. Does anyone know of a German H-engine?
 
Perhaps they were trying to hide the real deal with a 1:1 model?
 

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From Jet 7 Prop 5-6/2005 and 1/2006,


the available info about Heinkel Mystery,my dear Jemiba,please could you translate them ?.
 

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hesham said:
From Jet 7 Prop 5-6/2005 and 1/2006,
the available info about Heinkel Mystery,my dear Jemiba,please could you translate them ?.
Click to expand...

We have a topic somewhere on the forum about this would-be "He 279 Spirale". I'm sure it has all the info there already.
 
Oh Yeh,that's right Skyblazer,


I forget it,and I opened it,my memory is too bad.
 
Hey,

as far as I know this is an Heinkel He 180 plane. It was built as a Testbed for the He 280 jet. The guy in the magazin speculates also this way.

Greetings
Athpilot
 

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athpilot said:
Hey,

as far as I know this is an Heinkel He 180 plane. It was built as a Testbed for the He 280 jet. The guy in the magazin speculates also this way.

Greetings
Athpilot
Click to expand...


May be that's right Athpilot,


even in Wikipedia mention it (He.180);


en.wikipedia.org

Heinkel He 280 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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Wikipedia only mentions the He 180 as the first designation of the later He 280 and no connections to this type. And the article just says, what we already jhave in this, know split and merged thread. I don't want to choke off this discussion, as long as we don't have a real evidence for or against. But my personal opinion still is, that it isn't a real type. The theory with the movie mockup seems quite plausible to me. ;)
 
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Other online sources suggest that 'He 180' was applied to the He 280 prototype airframe too. But the prototype Bücker Bü 180 Student flew two years earlier (in the Fall of 1937).

So, the designation 'He 180' obviously wasn't applied by the RLM. Perhaps 'He 180' was an unofficial, internal Heinkel designation ... or just a rough project type name used by Robert Lusser?
 
Principally that's a question not really related to that unknown type, I think. A testbed for the He 280
certainly would have been known for a long time, as that type and its development is well known. And
it would shift the time frame much rearward to that, suggested now. And a new type of engine for an
aerodynamic testbed ? And even an X- or H engine ?? What should it be around 1939 ?
 
Hi,

in my list Heinkel He.278 was a four engined bomber project,but in this Wikipedia list,
the He.278 was a turboprop fighter project,if that was true,maybe related to this odd
design,which I think it was a fake picture by 90 %.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_RLM_aircraft_designations
 

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hesham said:
Hi,

in my list Heinkel He.278 was a four engined bomber project,but in this Wikipedia list,
the He.278 was a turboprop fighter project,if that was true,maybe related to this odd
design,which I think it was a fake picture by 90 %.

List of RLM aircraft designations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
The Air Material Command document "Glossary of German Aeronautical Codes, Models, Project Numbers, Abbreviations" lists "He 278" for a bomber project powered by four Junkers Jumo 012 turbojets. A list of Heinkel projects conceived in 1943-1945 and prepared for US troops after members Heinkel's project office were captured by US forces (on page 34 of Dan Sharp's bookazine Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers of the Third Reich) lists the Heinkel P.1070 flying wing jet bomber as powered by four turbojets, so it is possible that what's called "He 278" in the AMC document might be the P.1070, given that the P.1072 was the last late-war Heinkel project for a piston-powered bomber.
 
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hesham said:
Hi,

in my list Heinkel He.278 was a four engined bomber project,but in this Wikipedia list,
the He.278 was a turboprop fighter project,if that was true,maybe related to this odd
design,which I think it was a fake picture by 90 %.

List of RLM aircraft designations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
Hi Hesham,

I edited the Wikipedia list to have the "He 278" entry changed to "turboprop bomber (project)".
 
Though the probability, that those photos actually show a real aircraft seem to be very low, there's still no absolute
certainty, at least I haven't found hard evidence, that they were faked, or just showing a dummy, or something like that.
Otherwise this thread could be moved to the "Theoretical, Fake and Generic Projects" section.
But it's absolutely clear, I think, that it has nothing to do with any kind of 4-engined bomber !
So, please, stay with the original topic !
 
Jemiba said:
Though the probability, that those photos actually show a real aircraft seem to be very low, there's still no absolute
certainty, at least I haven't found hard evidence, that they were faked, or just showing a dummy, or something like that.
Otherwise this thread could be moved to the "Theoretical, Fake and Generic Projects" section.
But it's absolutely clear, I think, that it has nothing to do with any kind of 4-engined bomber !
So, please, stay with the original topic !
Click to expand...
Reply #31 by @hesham is outdated because I edited the Wikipedia article mentioned in that reply to list RLM slot 8-278 since there is no evidence whatsoever that Heinkel worked on a turboprop fighter. The thread title shouldn't mention "He 519" or "He 536" because the Heinkel P.1065/IIIc high-speed bomber for which the late Heinz Nowarra quoted the designation "He 519" on pages 248 and 249 of Die Deutsche Luftruestung 1933-1945 Vol. 2. had a different appearance than the probably fake plane discussed in this thread (Dan Sharp informed me that no wartime Heinkel project bore the RLM slot 8-278), and the RLM slot "He 536" was never allocated to any wartime German aircraft project.
 
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but I think it's fascinating we're looking for any possible way for this thing to be real, even the slightest possibility, because it's INTERESTING.

When I was a kid, I dreamed I was in my local library and found a whole bunch of books about Luftwaffe aircraft I'd never seen before. Even in the dream, I vaguely had the sense that these planes weren't real - but as vivid as they were in that dream, I couldn't remember a single detail about any of them when I woke up. They all existed in that dream universe, and I wish I could replay that dream and write it all down.

I wonder if this thing is on one of the pages I didn't look at in that dream? :p
 
Jemiba said:
Otherwise this thread could be moved to the "Theoretical, Fake and Generic Projects" section.
Click to expand...
I second the motion.

It's intriguing and we've discussed it at length (much like the French battlebus here) but this one certainly seems highly likely to be a 'fake' of some description, whether by design as a decoy or movie prop (post-war photo doctoring is less likely but can't be ruled out).
The French case looks more genuine as we have a couple of hulked fuselages, but this 'Heinkel' masquerades as something operational when its not and has accumulated a host of inaccurate designation tags to boot.
 

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