Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

The F-35 has been in production for many years and has produced a thousand aircraft. While I think it is the absolute poster child of a miss managed program, not upgrading the baseline configuration hardly seems like a solution.
 
Josh_TN said:
The F-35 has been in production for many years and has produced a thousand aircraft. While I think it is the absolute poster child of a miss managed program, not upgrading the baseline configuration hardly seems like a solution.
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I’m just questioning why so many were built with an apparently very limited config.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
Yep. Can the previous TR be so limiting?
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Aside from taking advantage of technological advances in electronics, materials science and production methods the development period has been so long that the F-35 is already dealing with the issues of obsolesce in its' avionics.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
I’m just questioning why so many were built with an apparently very limited config.
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Cause the old stuff was already Certified.

It had all the paperwork done.

We knew it worked.

The new stuff?

It Still in the Certification Phase, it still being testing. All the bugs, the germins, the WTF does it do that is not known.

Going with the Newest stuff like the DCAS would literally have added another 2 damn years to the RD time for all versions, AKA entering Service in 2018 instead of 2016. If we were lucky.

And we needed those frames NOW cause the F16s Harriers and like were rapidly reaching their end of life CANNOT FLY status frighteningly fast.

Plus I dont think the new DCAS was even a thing til 2020, so they couldn't have added it even if they wanted.

Basically you going We need to be PERFECT, instead of good enough. Which the old gear was, more then IS good enough for the vast majority of usages.

Not help how freaking fast Tech moving. My cellphone has more computing power then the best PCs did in 2012. And its 5 years old, the newest ones are twice as powerful.

Consider what that means for the stuff in the F35.

The BlockV stuff is ment to capitalize on that.

But the Companies keep releasing New Stuff that the military wants cause it edges out another 20 percent performance increase in the gear. Which is enough that you cant really justify not added to the newest upgrade due to the exact react you having now.

But every change results in the Certification Process getting Reset.

And that process is tge way it is cause it written in the Blood of the people wo didn't follow it. With it involving some serouis indepth amd detail testing that involves lots of time. So you cant kust throw more bodies at it.


TLDR?

Tech moving fast enough, that what was high end 4 years ago, is middle end now. So the company and Militaries are trying keep up while also balancing the need to replace the 2000 plus older birds now cause they are falling apart. While also balance the need to ensure it works.
 
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Bruno Anthony said:
I’m just questioning why so many were built with an apparently very limited config.
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Because fighters are needed now, both for US and for the customers.
Simple as that.

Yea, that means that early customers will have to come up with ways to get out of blk3 limitations later - they knew that beforehand.
But for many of those, the aircraft they're replacing with the f-35s weren't exactly smartest around either.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
I’m just questioning why so many were built with an apparently very limited config.
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Because some people are replacing freaking F-4s with F-35s, nevermind F-16s.

And everyone with a Block1-3 airframe knew going in that those planes wouldn't be up to the same standards as the Block 4s.

See also the difference between F16A/B and C/D, or F-15A/B and C/D. In both those cases, the line went from making A/Bs to C/Ds directly, and the A/Bs were replaced by C/Ds after a short period of time (~5-10 years, in the case of the Eagles)
 
Scott Kenny said:
Because some people are replacing freaking F-4s with F-35s, nevermind F-16s.
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on top of that - current capability list at a whole airforce level matters.
Unless you're replacing the whole fleet of something that could do specific something with early f-35 fleet that can't provide a similar capability - it isn't a problem.
 
Ainen said:
on top of that - current capability list at a whole airforce level matters.
Unless you're replacing the whole fleet of something that could do specific something with early f-35 fleet that can't provide a similar capability - it isn't a problem.
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And considering that the first production F-35 Block 1s, the very first planes after FSD, could at least carry and launch 2x AMRAAMs and 2x JDAMs, that's the basics covered tolerably well.
 
Scott Kenny said:
And considering that the first production F-35 Block 1s, the very first planes after FSD, could at least carry and launch 2x AMRAAMs and 2x JDAMs, that's the basics covered tolerably well.
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Yep, current set (AIM-120D, AIM-9X/ASRAAM, JDAM/LJDAM/PAVEWAY, SDB I) covers basics pretty thoroughly.
Plus F-35, as an inherently pen-capable platform with top-level geolocating, at least partially covers (1)deep strike and (2)DEAD even without specialized instruments.

This is below expectations for the progress of a platform 10 years old, but by itself it's a solid multi-role set.
 
Also another thing to consider.

The Sensor may not be top of the line.

However Comma.

They are still only second by the actual recon stuff of same generator.

They are good, they do everything asked of them.

They may not have 400k res, or 120 fps, or what ever like the newer ones.

But for their role they do the job well.

As for the Weapons? It can carry the major stockpile stuff as list. The meat and potatoes of the Fliers weapons. May not have the Special stuff like the Nukes or Cruiser yet, but it can cover the common mission sets.

Not what one wants considering the... Fun the program had but at least it wasn't canceled like many call for back in the day.

Most rather have a 3/4 done plane over no plane.

Plus well, theilre 4 digits worth of them.

There what? 30 SU57s and round 300 of the J20s. 3 to one odds with opponents that near peer capabilities wise and peer training wise will out right suck no matter how you slice it.

It hits the sweet spot of Capabilities and High numbers.
 
There's no shortage of J20s and production is full rate; F-35s will never outnumber them in the Pacific. But Su-57 numbers seem sufficiently low and F-35 buys for NATO members sufficiently high that it seems likely they will be heavily outnumbered by European F-35s for their entire service life.
 
Josh_TN said:
There's no shortage of J20s and production is full rate; F-35s will never outnumber them in the Pacific. But Su-57 numbers seem sufficiently low and F-35 buys for NATO members sufficiently high that it seems likely they will be heavily outnumbered by European F-35s for their entire service life.
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Russian aerial stance was defensive since the fall of the USSR anyway, so in hindsight, both sides just keep the status quo. All things considered together, RuAF in the air right now is probably (relatively) strongest since the 1990s.
F-35s can easily outnumber J-20s in eastpac overall, it's just under a question mark if it can be exploited. Huge half-ring of dispersed, individually vulnerable bases against Chinesee forces isn't exactly an optimistic start.
And one certain US ally and F-35 operator has kindly shown in the past what can happen from this start.
 
Josh_TN said:
new IR/laser designator,
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I'm not sure if Advanced EOTS has been contracted by anyone yet....and there might be a good reason why...

If its dependent on Block IV by the time it arrives it will be close to 20 years old tech, obsolete from service entry...LM needs to just start again and develop a new 'Super Advanced' EOTS...in readiness for Block IV...that won't need replacement immediately...

The present EOTS is based around the innards of Sniper XR, which has been superceded close to 10 years ago by Sniper ATP-SE. The tech behind it will be c30 years old by the time Block IV arrives...

In comparison Litening has gone through 3 models in the same time frame...
 
Bruno Anthony said:
Then why produce 1,000 aircraft of reduced capability that are barely in service now?
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Technology develops. To put it a different way, one could say why did Apple produce/sell the all the iPhone versions up to the current one? Why didn't they just jump straight to the latest version?
 

Bruno Anthony said:
It’s great for business!
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images

Ok, so if you don't want to deal with reality...
 
Bruno Anthony said:
It’s great for business!
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Both J-20(B) and Su-57(M) are now going through an absolutely identical process.
Technologies develop, shiny new tech from tomorrow(or the day after if the overpromising supplier catches a problem) don't replace what you work with today.
 
timmymagic said:
I'm not sure if Advanced EOTS has been contracted by anyone yet....and there might be a good reason why...

If its dependent on Block IV by the time it arrives it will be close to 20 years old tech, obsolete from service entry...LM needs to just start again and develop a new 'Super Advanced' EOTS...in readiness for Block IV...that won't need replacement immediately...

The present EOTS is based around the innards of Sniper XR, which has been superceded close to 10 years ago by Sniper ATP-SE. The tech behind it will be c30 years old by the time Block IV arrives...
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Makes you wonder if it'd be possible to just swap the guts out with the ATP-SE hardware.

Annoying difficulty of LO aircraft, gotta build in any new tech instead of bolting on a pod like 4gen planes do.
 
GTX said:
images

Ok, so if you don't want to deal with reality...
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I apologize for getting snarky. I’d defend the F-22 as much as F-35 fans do but the -35 just seems to get further and further behind and entire alliances are dependent on it. Too much shoved into this one basic airframe in my opinion.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
I apologize for getting snarky. I’d defend the F-22 as much as F-35 fans do but the -35 just seems to get further and further behind and entire alliances are dependent on it. Too much shoved into this one basic airframe in my opinion.
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It would be absolutely fair to criticize the F-35 program as exhibit A in how not to run a program.

That said, there are basically two other options, suffering similar setbacks, if not worse. The U.S. is largely eating the development cost fuck ups, with perhaps the UK paying a bit as well. For anyone else buying largely off the shelf, it is a good deal and literally the only game in town - su-57 is a dead end and J-20 is not for sale and no one is even attempting to produce a STOVL aircraft of any kind, not even China.
 
Josh_TN said:
su-57 is a dead end
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Why? No lol.
It's simply young&CATSA-suppressed, so nothing comes out prematurely now, plus it's customer base is now completely detached from f-35(before they at least intersected somewhat).

No one wants to be Egypt (which iirc actually paid for all those su-35s it can't accept).
 
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Ainen said:
Why? No lol.
It's simply young&CATSA-suppressed, so nothing comes out prematurely now, plus it's customer base is now completely detached from f-35(before they at least intersected somewhat).

No one wants to be Egypt (which iirc actually paid for all those su-35s it can't accept).
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Given the performance of much Russian equipment in Ukraine, I think the Su-57 (and the Su-75 if it ever develops into real hardware...) are hampered in attempts to sell.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
I apologize for getting snarky. I’d defend the F-22 as much as F-35 fans do but the -35 just seems to get further and further behind and entire alliances are dependent on it. Too much shoved into this one basic airframe in my opinion.
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Don't believe all that you read in the media. Consider the fact that some 21 countries have either purchased and are operating or are awaiting their F-35s. I seem to think that all of the air staff making the recommendations might know a thing or two about the capabilities vs other options on the table.
 
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red admiral said:
So which Litening operators replaced their existing pods at every upgrade?
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The RAF has gone through Sniper STP, to Litening III and is now on Litening V

With ever more restrictive ROE the fidelity of sensors is incredibly important, and the range that those sensors can identify targets for engagement given more munitions with longer range. Thats whats driven changes, and that will continue into the future.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Makes you wonder if it'd be possible to just swap the guts out with the ATP-SE hardware.

Annoying difficulty of LO aircraft, gotta build in any new tech instead of bolting on a pod like 4gen planes do.
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They could do. But that pod is 10 years old already. By the time Block IV arrives in new production in its earliest forms it will be 15 years...it will take years for operators to get their existing fleet upgraded to Block IV standard (you can't just park your entire fighter fleet up for a year and take them apart, it will need to be staggered around maintenance events). So in practice you'd be asking operators to install a 20 year old sensor solution in their newly upgraded F-35...and then accept that solution for the next 20 years of service....

I think if its delivery is based around Block IV timelines it really needs to be a solution that is comparatively fresh out of the box for when those upgrades happen.
 
GTX said:
Given the performance of much Russian equipment in Ukraine, I think the Su-57 (and the Su-75 if it ever develops into real hardware...) are hampered in attempts to sell.
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I don't remember anything bad about su-57 in Ukraine. There is not enough of it, but it just started its production run - it's simply young.
Also we don't know that much, other than that by 2024 it clearly has its LACM integrated, unlike the F-35 (which waits for block 4, and its internal jsow-er died anyway).
On the other hand - we don't know for sure what else is (or isn't) integrated there. And it's again somewhat unfair to f-35, which is far more exposed.
 
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Ainen said:
I don't remember anything bad about su-57 in Ukraine. There is not enough of it, but it just started its production run - it's simply young.
Also we don't know that much, other than that by 2024 it clearly has its LACM integrated, unlike the F-35 (which waits for block 4, and its internal jsow-er died anyway).
On the other hand - we don't know for sure what else is (or isn't) integrated there. And it's again somewhat unfair to f-35, which is far more exposed.
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I was referring to Russian weapons in general not Su-57 specifically. Given it's very limited reported use I don't think it has made much impact what-so-ever.
 

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