Euro Frigates

Some projects from Le Bourget Naval 1992

pometablava said:

Some projects from Le Bourget Naval 1992

Click to expand...

Wow!

The Franco-British frigate looks a bit like early French drawings of the Horizon class for a year or two later.

The F3000 Italian frigate is the greatest find. For years, I read about "updated variant of the Maestrale class," but this is the first graphical representation. Wow! Incredible!

Do you have any larger scans of the Franco-British or the Italian F3000?

Do you remember your sources? If so, any specifications?

Do you have any larger scans of the Franco-British or the Italian F3000?

Click to expand...

Take a look at your email box

Overscan have a good idea when decides that every post here should reference its source. Several members here enjoy Universitary level and we are habituated with the bibliographic references in our professional life but not for our amateur research activities :-[...I must admit that I'm more professional since I'm here ;D.
This scans come from my "no reference recording era" so it is incomplete. Might our French friends give some help?. It is a Defence Magazine which initials are DAI (Defense et Aviation International? ???)

It is number 111 Septembre/Octobre 1992, pg 72 and the author is Margareth Wildmoore


Frigate F3000

Highly automatization and stealthy features adopted. Standard Displacement: 3100 Tons. Lenght: 112,5 m. Width: 14,5 m. CODOG powerplant. Max speed: 34 knots. Max range: 5000 miles at 18 knots. Armament: 3x OTO Melara 76/62 Super rapido, 24x SeaWolf or Albatros (VLS), 8x OTOMAT Mk.2 and one helicopter (EH101 or NH90). A similar concept, the F1700 is mentioned but not fully described and no drawings are shown.
The light frigate F1700 would be armed in a modular basis to ensure a high degree of polyvalence.
Both designs are focused to the export market

There is no info about the Franco-British Frigate besides the drawing I posted.

In late 1992, after the NFR-90 program cancellation the most important European Frigate progams, according to the text, were:

Franco-British Frigate
Spanish F100 (ASM) and F110 (AA)
German-Nedeerland Type 124

Export Frigate programs:

Franco-German F-26
Italian F3000 and F1700
British Yarrow 2000 ton frigate for Malaysia
British type Loch (2540 ton, 107,8 x 13,52 m)
French "Flexible" La Fayette (1000, 2000, 3000 ton in multiple versions)

Well, it is all I have. More data and pics will be welcome

I think if anything the Franco British Frigate looks more like an early vestion of FREMM than Horizon.

Regards

Intresting, the Franco-British frigate and the Italian F3000 uisng Sea Wolf are not mentioned by D K Borwn in his book 'Rebuilding the RN' and Brown seems to be 'God' when it comes to the RN.

Very interesting Pometablava.

DKB mentions the France-UK-Netherlands Frigate that arose from NFR-90, the "FUN". He also mentions that the Head of Concept in the UK developed his own ideas. The FF shown may be a french equivalent, as it shows the design ideas to emerge in the La Fayette and FREMM class. I think I've seem that image in an issue of Janes also.

That the fact that Italian ship could carry VLSW is not mentioned by DKB, is not surprising - other that that weapon it was not a UK design.

I think I have some information on the Yarrow 2K and Loch class. I will have a look.

RP1

JohnR said:

I think if anything the Franco British Frigate looks more like an early vestion of FREMM than Horizon.

Regards

Click to expand...

The French favored a single block superstructure from the beginning for the Horizon class.

pometablava said:

Frigate F3000

Highly automatization and stealthy features adopted. Standard Displacement: 3100 Tons. Lenght: 112,5 m. Width: 14,5 m. CODOG powerplant. Max speed: 34 knots. Max range: 5000 miles at 18 knots. Armament: 3x OTO Melara 76/62 Super rapido, 24x SeaWolf or Albatros (VLS), 8x OTOMAT Mk.2 and one helicopter (EH101 or NH90). A similar concept, the F1700 is mentioned but not fully described and no drawings are shown.
The light frigate F1700 would be armed in a modular basis to ensure a high degree of polyvalence.
Both designs are focused to the export market

Click to expand...

The F3000 does resemble the comtemporary Minerva class corvettes in overall layout, and perhaps the smaller F1700 might have been a stretched Minerva?

pometablava said:

In late 1992, after the NFR-90 program cancellation the most important European Frigate progams, according to the text, were:

Franco-British Frigate
Spanish F100 (ASM) and F110 (AA)
German-Nedeerland Type 124

Export Frigate programs:

Franco-German F-26
Italian F3000 and F1700
British Yarrow 2000 ton frigate for Malaysia
British type Loch (2540 ton, 107,8 x 13,52 m)
French "Flexible" La Fayette (1000, 2000, 3000 ton in multiple versions)

Well, it is all I have. More data and pics will be welcome

Click to expand...

The different sized LaFayettes is hardly a suprise. DCN made the sale to Singapore by promoting a 95m, 2200 ton ship....which ended up being the 3200 ton Formidable class.

The "British type Loch (2540 ton, 107,8 x 13,52 m)" is really a mystery to me? I wonder which yard was promoting this design.

I also don't know what to make the of the Spanish F-110 or the German F-26. Bremer Vulkan offered a F-25, and information on the design remained on Naval-technology.com long after Brmer Vulkan itself had disappeared.

RP1 said:

Very interesting Pometablava.

DKB mentions the France-UK-Netherlands Frigate that arose from NFR-90, the "FUN". He also mentions that the Head of Concept in the UK developed his own ideas. The FF shown may be a french equivalent, as it shows the design ideas to emerge in the La Fayette and FREMM class. I think I've seem that image in an issue of Janes also.

Click to expand...

Around 1993, Jane's showed different drawing of the Horizon class for the UK and France. The French ship had a single block superstructure, and the British ship had a double superstructure and helicopter pad/hangar that was lowered one deck.

Oddly, the 24-round Seastreak launcher was depicted on all of the early Horizon class drawings, although the text described it as a generic "Inner Layer Missile System?"

The Loch Class was designed by the Scottish firm of Hall Russell Ltd, responsible for the detail design of the Castle Class OPV. A model was shown at the 1987 RNEE.
Source: Royal Navy Frigates Since 1945, Leo Marriott. This has some images.

AFAIK SeaStreak was actually considered as an ILMS, but a range of options was under consideration, so it would always be "generic". Thinking about it, the options would have been limited; SeaStreak, Goalkeeper or (as a fall-back), Phalanx. RAM was not ready (IIRC) and Sea Zenith and Meroka had been previously rejected by the RN. IIRC, Goalkeeper was the winner in a NATO CIWS evaluation. I can't remember when LightWeight SeaWolf was cancelled offhand, but that might have been under consideration at an early stage?

RP1

Vospers Frigates

Since we are covering UK designs in this thread:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52/RP1/Ships/Scans/vospers_98m_marriott.png


Reference:

Marriott, L, "Royal Navy Frigates since 1945, Second Edition", London, Ian Allen Ltd, 1990, ISBN0-7110-1915-0

Refinement of Mk 18 design, dating from 1985.
Below decks hangar for 1 * Lynx.
1 * Spey / 2 * Diesel CODOG propulsion + electromotor for silent running.
Oto Melara 76/62 SR, 2 * LSE 30mm, 1 * Goalkeeper CIWS, 4 * Harpoon SSM, 4 * Stingray ASW Torpedoes in box launchers over the stern.
Hull-mounted and towed array sonars.
Complement 84.

RP1

Loch class light frigate / corvette, designed by Hall Russell Limited, and presented at the 1987 RNEE. 2500te and 107.8m overall, Combined Diesel And eLectric propulsion and a range of possible weapons fits. Weapons included a gun up to 127mm calibre, SSM and a PDMS. The latter was housed in partially exposed launchers either side of the hangar.

Note the tall mast, made possible by the weight of the diesels low in the ship, and the two funnels side by side amidships.

My only changes to the original are to add a slightly larger seaboat than the very small one indicated, and to add inlet vents at the base of the funnel.

RP1

Several Vosper designs are shown on this website - http://www.vosper.co.uk

E.g. 95m frigate



and a SWATH from c. 1985:



Full gallery: http://www.vosper.co.uk/images/newgallery/index.htm

Stretching my memory here but I had a copy of either Naval Forces or Navy International Magazine in the early 90s that had an article comparing UK light frigate designs and concepts at the time. One was I believe the Mk19 (don't remember anything else on it) the Swordfish and at least one other. Mention was made of another design, the Modernised Leander (which was apparently offered to the RAN as a Type 12 replacement), which had been covered in a previous edition I haven't read. There was a full page ad for the Modernised Leander displaying artwork that showed it to be very different to the Type 12M, i.e. a VLS and quite different lines.

Further on there was an article about ever reducing crew size through automation, including a sketch of a future "50 man Frigate" concept from (I believe) YARD, that looked remarkably like the Franko-British Frigate sketch attached to the opening post. From memory it had an overall length of 140m.

Antonio said:

Some projects from Le Bourget Naval 1992

Click to expand...

This is a necroposting and I do beg for forgiveness, but do you still have that larger scans of Franco-British frigate?

Galvars said:

This is a necroposting and I do beg for forgiveness, but do you still have that larger scans of Franco-British frigate?

Click to expand...

That posts come from original mags in my personal library or scans when mags get damaged after moving to a new home. I'll try to find it and send you higher resolution scans.

It would be great, thank you very much.

Attaching an article on European frigates from International Defence Review in 1982.
The types featured are from France, Germany, Italy and Britain and include: HDW's FS and FG series, Bremen Vulcan's C16 series, MEKO 140, Lurssen C83, Yarrow 2,400-ton design, Vickers Type 2015, VT Mk.17 and an export version of Belgium's E71.

Also found this version of the uprated export E71 in my files, got this off the internet back in 2017 but can't remember where. There was a suggestion this might have been the original E71 design but it seems more likely to the be the export version.
It was from a book sometime in the late 1970s.

Mike Pryce said:

E.g. 95m frigate

and a SWATH from c. 1985:

Click to expand...

By any chance do you still have those images? Thanks.

Another gallery of Vosper designs can be found here: http://www.vosperinternational.eu/images/gallery/index.htm
This seems to be an older gallery than the one Mike has linked, some of the pictures are duplicated but there are a few additional design studies too.

Thanks guys!

Mike Pryce said:

Several Vosper designs are shown on this website - http://www.vosper.co.uk
E.g. 95m frigate

Click to expand...

Here's some more info on Vosper's 95m frigate.

Various Vosper corvette designs, all 84-85m long and ~1,350 tonnes. These appear to be stealthier derivatives of Oman's Qahir class corvettes so late 1990s?

All are heavily armed with a 76mm main gun, 8x SSMs, and a RAM launcher.

• The first 2 are "missile vessels" with an additional 16x VL SAM (for VL Sea Wolf?) and 20mm Phalanx CIWS; the main difference between these 2 variants being their bow shape/rake.
• The 3rd variant is a standard corvette and lacks VL SAMs
• The 4th variant is a patrol corvette without RAM or VL SAMs

"These appear to be stealthier derivatives of Oman's Qahir class corvettes so late 1990s?"

Broadly speaking, yes. We used one of the later variants of this series in a design for production project with VT in the early '00s and a lot of things were commonn with the Omanii corvettes. VT was very good at reusing designs to create marketable "families" of ships and one can view these designs as the 90s version of the Mk 5 series.

Edited to add: The VLS was a Mk 48 for Sea Sparrow.

RP1 said:

VT was very good at reusing designs to create marketable "families" of ships and one can view these designs as the 90s version of the Mk 5 series.

Click to expand...

Yes, interesting to compare to the Qahir class parent design below (top).

What I find strange is that there was no attempt to lengthen the hull along the lines of this 1995 thesis, which argued that a longer, less cramped variant of VT's corvette designs would reduce build cost and improve powering / sea keeping. Basically you could grow the Qahir hull from 83m to 98m (a ~25% increase in hull volume) at no penalty.

Source:
THE DEVELOPMENT AND APPLICATION OF WARSHIP COST ESTIMATING METHODS
https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/458751/1/84903.pdf

H_K said:

Yes, interesting to compare to the Qahir class parent design below (top).

What I find strange is that there was no attempt to lengthen the hull along the lines of this 1995 thesis, which argued that a longer, less cramped variant of VT's corvette designs would reduce build cost and improve powering / sea keeping. Basically you could grow the Qahir hull from 83m to 98m (a ~25% increase in hull volume) at no penalty.

Source: https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/458751/1/84903.pdf

Click to expand...

Hi,
Thanks for sharing that link. It is a fascinating paper.

Regards
Pat

H_K said:

Yes, interesting to compare to the Qahir class parent design below (top).

What I find strange is that there was no attempt to lengthen the hull along the lines of this 1995 thesis, which argued that a longer, less cramped variant of VT's corvette designs would reduce build cost and improve powering / sea keeping. Basically you could grow the Qahir hull from 83m to 98m (a ~25% increase in hull volume) at no penalty.

Source: https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/458751/1/84903.pdf

Click to expand...

Any more info on these?
The data table is very informative showing that the 1350ton displacement is actually full load not standard, but it lacks info on armaments and sensors.

Tzoli said:

Any more info on these?
The data table is very informative showing that the 1350ton displacement is actually full load not standard, but it lacks info on armaments and sensors.

Click to expand...

Well we’re talking about 2 different series of corvettes:

1) The original Qahir class (83m), which in the PDF study was derived into longer/larger variants (91m/93m/96m/98m) retaining the same exact weapons, sensors and propulsion

2) The 84/85m stealth corvettes which appear to be similar in length though also ~1m wider (~11.3m waterline, 12.5m oa). So likely a little heavier… perhaps 1,350 tonnes is standard or lightship displacement, not full load.

@RP1 may have more info on sensors for the second series?