De Schelde designations

More holes than filling but here's a start on De Schelde designations. Can anyone fill gaps or add other designations?
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De Schelde Aircraft Designations

De Schelde inherited staff and designs when it took over the failed Pander & zonen firm. Both the services of chief designer Theodorus Slot and his as-yet-unbuilt designs were part of that deal. Thus, from Pander, de Schelde took on the 'S' (for T.E. Slot) designation style as well as a construction number sequence. As a result, the very first aircraft designed at de Schelde - the S.12 monoplane prototype - was assigned c/n 48.

Although Theo Slot designed the unfortunate S.12, it is not clear whether 'S' still stood for Slot at that time ... or if it simply stood for 'Schelde'.
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De Schelde 'S' Series Aircraft Designations

De Schelde S.1 - (Project) Pander twin-boomed commercial a/c, 6-engined

De Schelde S.2 - (Project) Pander commercial a/c, 4 x pusher engines

De Schelde S.3 - (Project) Pander commercial a/c, three-engined, high wing

De Schelde S.4 - (Project) Militair long range recce/medium bomber
- S.4: Recce-bomber deriv. of Slot's Pander S.4 Postjager mailplane
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...aft-projects-and-prototypes.5276/#post-222783

De Schelde S.5 - S.7 - (??)

De Schelde S.8 - (Project) 1935 low-winged monoplane airliner
- S.8: Probably intended as medium type for KLM's NEI routes
- S.8: 2 x 620 hp Junkers Jumo 205 diesels;* span (??) m
- S.8: Vague resemblance to Douglas DC-2; retract. main u/c
-- * With alternative radial engines proposed (type unknown)

De Schelde S.9 - S.11 - (??)

De Schelde S.12 - 1935 3-/4-seat,* low-winged cabin aircraft; x 1
- S.12: Slender fuselaged monoplane w/ trousered main u/c legs
- S.12: 1 x 130 hp DH Gipsy Major inverted 4-cyl.; span (??)
- S.12: Theo Slot design for Klaas de Geus van den Heuvel [2]
- S.12: Proved seriously overweight but was accepted anyway [3]
-- * Seating may have been reduced to allow for weight gain

De Schelde S.13 - S.18 - (??)

De Schelde S.19 - (Project) Twin-engined, 4-seat 'jachtkruiser'*
- S.19: Twin-boomed; mid-placed wings; metal constr.; tricycle u/c
-- * Jachtkruisers were bomber-sized multi-seat heavy fighters

De Schelde S.20 - 1940 twin-boomed pusher cabin monoplane; x 1
- S.20: 4-seater (1+3) sports a/c; mixed constr.; retr. tricycle u/c
- S.20: 1 x 160 hp Hirth HM 506A inverted 6-cyl.; span 11.35 m
- S.20: (As flown) metal booms; plywood-covered wooden wings
- S.20: (Planned) production aircraft to have metal wing constr.

De Schelde S.21 - (Project) Single-seat, twin-boomed fighter; x 1*
- S.21: Low-winged; twin-boomed; pusher-propeller; tricycle u/c
- S.21: 1 x 1,085 hp Daimler-Benz DB600G IV-12; span 9.00 m
- S.21: Highly-glazed cockpit w/ flexibly-mounted Madsen 23 mm
-- * Prototype constr. near complete in May 1940; seized by DE
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/de-schelde-s-21-fighter.7327/

De Schelde S.22 - (Project) Single-seat, twin-boomed fighter a/c
- S.22: High-winged S.21 alternative to 1938 fighter specification
- S.22: 1 x 1,030 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin II pusher; span (??) m
- S.22: Nose flex cannon; 2 x cannons in wings; 2 x 7.9 mm mgs

De Schelde S.23 - (??)

De Schelde S.24 - (Project) 2-seat recce aircraft; related to S.22
- S.24: High-winged; pusher propeller; no other details (??)
- S.24: 1 x 650 hp Isotta Fraschini Asso 120 IRCC.40; span (??)

De Schelde S.25 - (Project) 2-seat 'combat' aircraft (recce type?)
- S.25: Gull winged; twin-boomed (?); pusher propeller
- S.25: 1 x 650 hp Isotta Fraschini Asso 120 IRCC.40; span (??)

De Schelde S.26 - (Project) Ontwerp 75; 50-pax airliner concept for KLM
- S.26: Twin-boomed airframe; 6 x pusher-props; engine type unknown
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/de-schelde-s-26-jpg.132791/

De Schelde S.27 - (Project) Poss. Ontwerp 76 4-engined mailplane [4]
-- Ontwerp 76: Long-range mailplane for KLM (planned route unknown)

De Schelde S.28 - (Project) No details (??)

De Schelde S.29 - S.31 - (??)

De Schelde S.32 - (Project) Dive bomber; no details (??)

De Schelde S.33 - (Project) Single-engined, single-seat racing aircraft
- S.33: Elsewhere said to be high-speed mailplane; no other details (??)

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[2] Along with his brother Bas, Klaas de Geus van den Heuvel was an Amsterdam construction magnate. While the older brother became better-known for his art collection, Klaas became known as a sport aviator.

[3] The S.12 was built at the Bedrijfsschool, Vlissingen. Some sources say that the wooden wing structure was weakened by poor construction practices. As a result of this (or just of being overweight), the S.12 was incapable of carrying passengers. Nonetheless, Klaas de Geus van den Heuvel took delivery of the aircraft which he registered (for his initials) as PH-KGH.

[4] The connect between the designation S.27 and Ontwerp 76 is speculative. Ontwerp 76 was the first of four submissions for KLM's South Atlantic airmail route to Paramaribo in Suriname. It had a span of 24.00 m; 4 x Junkers Jumo 205 diesels; and carried 4 passengers + mail. Another submission was a trimotor with 3 x 1,000 hp Wright Cyclones, resembling an enlarged, mid-winged Pander Postjager.

Hi,

S-8 small airliner with Jumo Diesel engines,data from 1935,project only
S-32 project for dive bomber
S-33 project for speed mailplane

Thanks Hesham.

I'm wondering if the S.33 high-speed mailplane is the model/mock-up you have added to the "De Schelde bomber aircraft" thread.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5276.0.html

The De Schelde S-33 was a single seat/single engined high speed aircraft
mentioned in "De Nederlands Vliegtuigencyclopedie-Schelde musch en Scheldemeeuw"
as a racer.

The first De schelde aircraft was de S-12, a four seat low wing tourer powered
by a 130hp Gipsy Major.

'S' indication stand for Slot the designer who before worked for Pander.

lark said:

The De Schelde S-33 was a single seat/single engined high speed aircraft
mentioned in "De Nederlands Vliegtuigencyclopedie-Schelde musch en Scheldemeeuw"
as a racer.

Click to expand...

Thanks Lark. Obviously not Hesham's three-engined aircraft then!

lark said:

'S' indication stand for Slot the designer who before worked for Pander.

Click to expand...

And before that, Theo Slot worked for VIH (Vliegtuig Industrie Holland).

The 'Scheldemusch'
and 'Scheldemeeuw'

never received an official De Schelde 'S' designation, only just their name.

Thanks for the corrections, Lark.

That makes better sense of the serial numbers. I noted that the De Schelde numbers follow on from Pander c/ns -- 47 was the last Pander E (c/n 24/I rebuilt). Then:

De Schelde S.12 c/n 48
De Schelde Scheldemusch c/n 49
De Schelde Scheldemeeuw c/n 50
De Schelde Scheldemusch c/n 51, 52, 53, 54, 55
De Schelde S.20 c/n 56
De Schelde Scheldemeeuw c/n 57

So, you've already told us that the S.12 was "a four seat low wing tourer powered
by a 130hp Gipsy Major". What the heck were the S.13 and S.14 ???

Actually, the S-4 design was the Pander Postjager.
Refer Wesselink, T and Postma, T, De Nederlandse Vliegtuigen, p. 87

Thanks Jos.

The overlapping Pander/De Schelde designations are all very confusing.

Lark said: "The military variant of the Pander 'Postjager' was the Pander S.4 'Militair' a planned medium bomber or long range reconnaissence aircraft."

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2742.0

I've assumed that the De Schelde S.4 designation would be applied to an on-going project (the Postjager having been abandoned with the collapse of Pander as an aircraft maker). De Schelde certainly intended to proceed with Postjager-derived military aircraft (see Hesham's post). Do you have confirmation that De Schelde also intended to continue with the Postjager itself?

Cheers

No mention of it in the Wesselink/Postma book.

Here is a list of the Slot designed aircraft that I have found in the book. The first number is the construction number and there is also the registration.

1 Holland H-1 not built
2 Holland H-1 H-NACD
3 Holland H-1 not built
4 Holland H-1 not built
5 Holland H-1 not built
6 Holland H-1 not built
7 Holland H-2 H-NACE
8 ?
9 ?
10 Pander D H-NACM
11 Pander D H-NACN
12 Pander D H-NACO
13 Pander D H-NACS
14 Pander D MLD P-1
15 Pander D MLD P-2
16 Pander D ML-KNIL P-501?
17 Pander D H-NACW, PK-SAB
18 Pander E H-NADI
19 Pander D ML-KNIL P-502?
20 Pander E PH-AEQ
21 Pander D H-NADL
22 Pander E H-NADV
23 Pander E H-NADW
24 Pander E H-NAEJ, PH-AJB
25 Pander E H-NAEV
26 Pander E PH-AEX
27 Pander E PH-AKA
28 Pander P.1 PH-AGM
29 Pander P.2 PH-AGN
30 Pander E PH-AFJ
31 Pander E PH-AFZ
32 Pander E PK-SAH?
33 Pander E PH-AFM
34 Mayer M.1 PH-2
35 Pander E PH-AFN
36 Pander E PH-AFP, PH-AIT
37 Pander E PK-SAJ?
38 Pander E PH-AFX
39 Pander E PH-AIA
40 Pander E PH-AIB
41 Pander P.3 PH-AIK
42 Pander Multipro PH-AIU
43 Pander Multipro PH-AIV
44 Pander Multipro PH-AIX
45 ? PK-SAW?
46 Pander Postjager PH-OST
47 Pander E PH-AJB
48 Schelde S.12 PH-KGH
49 Schelde Scheldemus PH-ALB
50 Schelde Scheldemeeuw PH-ALK
51 Schelde Scheldemus PH-AMA
52 Schelde Scheldemus PH-AME
53 Schelde Scheldemus PH-AMG
54 Schelde Scheldemus PH-AMH
55 Schelde Scheldemus PH-AMI
56 Schelde S-20 PH-ATY
57 Schelde Scheldemeeuw PH-ATM

Jos, you have anticipated me ;D I was just preparing a type list of produced VIH and Pander types!

To your list, I can only add a few glider types:

Pander PH-1 Zögling - 1930. A copy of the Stamer & Lippische Z-12 Zögling ('Pupil', designed by Alexander Lippisch). Replica at the Aviodrome.
http://www.aviodrome.nl/themapark/expositie/collectie-overzicht/M-W.asp

Pander PH-2 Mayer - 1930. Copy of German M.1 sailplane by Hermann Mayer. Used by ENZC club.

Pander SG-38 (Schulgleiter) - 1940?. Licenced Schneider DFS 108-14 for NSFK (555 built). http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1093296/

I haven't come across a PH- designation for the SG-38. Come to that, I'm not even sure if the PH-xx are actually Pander designations (Dutch gliders of the time all seem to be refered to by their PH- registration markings - for example, see: http://www.grunaubaby.nl/baby_in_nederland.htm )

Herman Dekker's 'The Complete Civil Aircraft Registers of The Netherlands since 1920' lists registration PH-1 as a Zogling RRG and PH-2 as a Mayer M.1. So, PH s a civil registration, not a Pander designation.

I remember that a few years ago a Dutch aviation magazine
produced a multipage article about unbuilt 'De Schelde' designs.
(no drawings,only descriptions)
Unfortunately I can't find the concerning mag.and text.
Is there someone who who can remeber it and who haves the magazine?

Jos Heyman said:

Herman Dekker's 'The Complete Civil Aircraft Registers of The Netherlands since 1920' lists registration PH-1 as a Zogling RRG and PH-2 as a Mayer M.1. So, PH s a civil registration, not a Pander designation.

Click to expand...

Ah, so does that mean that (presumably like the SG-38) the licence-built Zögling and M.1 never received Pander designations at all?

A bit more about some De Schelde designs...

S.19 : two engined midwing 'jachtkruiser' crew of 4.Concept had much of the
Fokker ontwerp 193 who was much a G.1 loo alike.
S.22 : single seat highwing fighter with pusher prop driven by a R.R.II(?)
Two MG's and one canon in the nose,two in the wing.
S.24 : Isotta Fraschini Asso A 120R.CC.40 powered two seat combat aircraft.
High wing with pusher prop.
S.25 : two seat combat aircraft with gull wing and pusher prop.same engine as in the S.24.

abridged translation from an article by: F.Gerdessen in 'Luchtvaart' January 1998.

Hi,

the PH-3 was an open cockpit two seat light aircraft,a version
with 120 hp De Havilland Gipsy III,later modified to have an
enclosed cabin,only one was built.

Going through the Wesselink/Postma book I referred in an earlier post I came across (p. 18) the Carley S.1, a 1919 small aircraft. Slot was working with Carley in the early part of his career and this could be 'his' S.1 - although the book does not specifically state this.
The entire thing is, of course, complicated by the fact that Fokker used the letter 'S' extensively for its training aircraft.

Thanks Hesham,

That description fits the Pander P-3. I think we've established that PH-3 was simply the registration for a Zögling glider -- a German (Schleicher-built) RRG-1 according to Herman Dekker.

Verrry interesting, Jos.

What other Joop Carley designs are out there? I have Carley's L-11 biplane, the 1923 C-12 'Flying Bicycle', and the KLM 'Jumbo'.

The 'Jumbo' is too late to have involved Slot. But we know that the C-12 was developed into Slot's H.2 for VIH. So, going out on a thin limb ... if the Carley S.1 is also Slot's S.1, might Carley's C-12 have been Slot's S.2?

Hi,

does anyone hear about Pander J-2 airplane ?.

Never heard of it, therewas a pander p-2 and the ph-2 glider

Gjalt said:

Never heard of it, therewas a pander p-2 and the ph-2 glider

Click to expand...

Maybe you are right Gjalt,and it's misprint ?.

Gjalt said:

Never heard of it, therewas a pander p-2 and the ph-2 glider

Click to expand...

The Pander P-2 was, of course, the one-off parasol sports aircraft. 'PH-2' was the Pander-built Mayer M.1 training glider ... PH-2 was its Dutch registration, not a Pander designation. (Not that Gjalt implied that PH-2 was a designation, just to be clear.)

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5333.msg42398.html#msg42398

Many thanks my dear Apophenia.

In my files,

there was also S-?,appeared in 1937 for de schelde light transport monoplane Project,maybe
taken the designation S-10 ?,only my suggesting.

Apophenia said:

Scheldemeeuw 1936 (1-seat flying boat, 1 x 40hp Praga B, pusher, based on Scheldemusch landplane) http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/law1/s12/s12-2.jpg [here mis-identified as S.12/S.13]

Click to expand...

It was not from Dutch sources,

old Infos in my files,S-14 was Scheldemeeuw and S-13 was Scheldemusch or developed from it,I will search about the source again.

Sorry hesham ... what "was not from Dutch sources"?

Apophenia said:

Sorry hesham ... what "was not from Dutch sources"?

Click to expand...

That means I have this Info from a book or magazine in my files,even before
I joined the SPF,but I will check.

The S.28 was appeared in Viegtuigtypes 1986/1.

hesham said:

The S.28 was appeared in Viegtuigtypes 1986/1.

Click to expand...

Thanks hesham. BTW, vliegtuigtypes just means 'aircraft types'. Your publication's name is Luchtvaart Kennis: Luchtvaart Historisch Tijdschrift.

So, does anyone have access to a copy of Luchtvaart Kennis 1986/01?

I've cleaned-up and corrected my original designation post. Alas no new de Schelde designations have come to light.

I had previously included the tekening nr. Jae-4301 and Jae-4302 in my listing. Since that nomenclature clearly refers to drawing numbers rather than actual designations, both concepts have now been removed.