French TSTO studies of the 60's

Archibald · 4 April 2008

Found this at astronautix

Encyclopedia Astronautica Index: 1

www.astronautix.com

In his (brilliant) article on Mirage mach 3 Mr Mirage 4000
briefly mention that the CPE (a kind of French RAND corp. created by minister of defence Pierre Mesmer in 1964) studied a
"lanceur de satellite a propulsion atmosphérique"
which translate by "an airbreathing satellite launcher"

Any infos on the subject ?

Jemiba · 5 April 2008

Just some pictures, hopefully it's from the project, you're looking for :
from Aviation Week 9/1965 and "Dassault - 50 Years of Aeronautical Adventure 1945-1995")

Archibald · 5 April 2008

WUNDERBAR!!!! Thank you very much. TAS of the 60's led to Star-H of the late 80's a rather similar concept.

Barrington Bond · 5 April 2008

...and some more!

Just call me Ray · 5 April 2008

The fly-back stage looks like a Concorde on Steroids.

I love it ;D

XP67_Moonbat · 5 April 2008

Wow, the mythical Blackstar's heritage is French!

In all seriousness though, it's a nice-looking concept and I was struck to see VAGUE similartites to the Blackstar concept (especially in ventral release of the second stage). I did say VAGUE, before anyone here tries to correct me. Of course the ventral launching TSTO idea was looked at by Boeing in the 90's, IIRC.

It's a shame this concept never took off.

Archibald · 6 April 2008

There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on)

Barrington Bond · 6 April 2008

Surely this the topic should be TSTO (Two Stage To Orbit) not SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit)?

Mistral anyone?!

Archibald · 6 April 2008

Yes it should - my own mistake! :

Keep on posting your pics Mr Bond...

flateric · 6 April 2008

Renamed topic.

Michel Van · 6 April 2008

Barrington Bond said:
Mistral anyone?!

that first picture i see the back side of Mistral Aircraft

more data on MISTRAL
join venture study of
Entwicklungring Nord (ERNO), Nord-Aviation and SNECMA

First stage aircraft
51,8 meter long
Ram engine trust 72 tons max speed mach 7

Second stage under aircraft.
25,9 meter long Lifting Body
6 rocket engine (LOX/LH2) 4 with trust 35 tons. 2 with 0.7 ton trust.
weight 300 ton payload 3 ton

Flight profile
take off Mistral to height of 35 km and speed of mach 7
separation of Lifting body and ignition rocket engine
the Lifting body flight in to 300 km high orbit

source
Frontiers of Space
Philip Bono/Kenneth Gatland

got some one, picture of second stage of Mistral ?

after Ron miller book "the dream machine" on page 496
claims that LB 21 Bumerang was flight test Model of MISTRAL second stage !
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2890.0.html

Archibald · 6 April 2008

Well it seems that British (Hawker Siddeley and RAE) French (CNES, Dassault, Sud, Nord) and German (Sanger/ Junkers RT-8) studies were all part of an ESRO program, the European Aerospace Transporter

It aparently ran from 1966 to 1969 but was doomed from the start (Europa fiasco probably didn't helped much)

More info on this program ?

Michel Van · 6 April 2008

the European Aerospace Transporter is one of most unknown Space Program !
because lack of Information

British (Hawker Siddeley and RAE) "MUSTARD" ?
French (CNES, Dassault, Sud, Nord) "Le transporteur aerospatial"
French Germand study (ERNO, Nord-Aviation, SNECMA) "MISTRAL"
German (Junkers ) "JuRT-8-01"

most of those study were made 1960 until 1964

so Wat happen ? unknown !
but in 1964 had ELDO/ESRO first political crisis

by the way
"Le transporteur aerospatial" is wrong label as "Space Taxi" in Ron miller the dream machine on page 496

Archibald · 6 April 2008

I remember an article in Science&Vie from 1964 were they briefly mentioned the Dassault T.A.S, saying it weighed around 280 tons and had three stages.

They also mention Sanger and Dynasoar respective death, which were very close - DynaSoar was cancelled on december 10th 1963, Sanger died in Berlin on 10th february 1964-

Jemiba · 6 April 2008

The Nord/ERNO proposal :

Just call me Ray · 6 April 2008

Archibald said:
There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on)

I was going to say, most multi-stage w/first stage fly-back capability designs end up looking the same or at least very close (the one exception, use of converted off-the-shelf options like B-52s and airliners aside, seems to be the White Knight series in all its glorious weirdness)

That said, this one sure is a looker

MIRAGE 4000 · 6 April 2008

Interesting project

I will search if I find something in my archives

XP67_Moonbat · 7 April 2008

Quote from: Archibald on Yesterday at 11:05:41 am
There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on)

True, that. TSTO concepts, it seems, are a dime a dozen. Same goes for those who aren't willing to take a chance on good designs like these. And that's the real tragedy, right there. One of these days perhaps.

Archibald · 7 April 2008

Well it also depends if the design is realistic or not!

Turboramjets are complex, heavy and expensive, and even with 6 of them the airbreathing first-stage top speed is "only" mach 6.

At such "low" speed you still need expendable upper stages to reach orbit...

Archibald · 12 April 2008

MIRAGE 4000 said:
Interesting project

I will search if I find something in my archives

Well it seems that you won't need all your archives : Espace Magazine of this month have an article on... Nord VERAS ! More details later

Barrington Bond · 16 January 2009

XP67_Moonbat · 16 January 2009

Were there any other uses proposed for that mothership?

Off the top of my head, I can see various mission modules taking up that space the orbiter would normally occupy. Maybe weapons, ELINT, or a recce pod. Or how about some kind of tanker module, maybe?

May as well get more for your money, right?

Moonbat

Barrington Bond · 16 January 2009

I think it might have been going a wee bit fast to be a tanker... :

Regards,
Barry

XP67_Moonbat · 16 January 2009

True. Got a little too creative. ;D

Just call me Ray · 17 January 2009

I imagine you can fit a passenger pod in there for a nice Concorde replacement.

...or a few megatons....

XP67_Moonbat · 17 January 2009

Personnel tranfer pod for moving troops quickly. Definitely.

Moonbat

antigravite · 24 January 2009

Re: French TSTO studies of the 60's | small boost-glide demonstrator project

In the late 1960s and early 1970s France planned to test a small ASSET like, boost-glide experimental aerospace research vehicle called VERA.

Very little is known about it -- or rather remembered because as I can recall it got cancelled. The project is properly mentionned in Hallion's "Hypersonic Revolution" and may have helped engineers to gain some experience to carve out the Hermes project -- but this I am not sure and has to be fact checked.

I could track down one relevant paper of interest:

Perez, Syre, Billon, Pichoir et Guyot (Tréfimétaux GP, Nord-Aviation, Onera
"Utilisation d'un alliage de niobium dans la réalisation d'un véhicule hypersonique"
Rev. Phys. Appl. (Paris) 5, 455-465 (1970)

Abstract: The use of a niobium-base alloy in an experimental structure of a hypersonic glider model (VERAS project) has required specific studies by each contributor to the project. The PECHINEY Group improved the formulation and the fabrication process of the alloy and accumulated data on its properties (tensile and creep strengths, oxidation resistance...). NORD-AVIATION Company worked out the technology of manufacturing the sandwich panels as described in the paper, and carried out the in-plant application of the protective coatings. ONERA performed a preliminary study of the protective system (coating selection - set up of process for applying the coating) ; this research work is summarized and the most interesting results for the related application are given. It is worthwhile to notice that the technology developed for this project has been selected for the design of parts of the Space Shutlle Vehicle.

link: http://rphysap.journaldephysique.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/rphysap/abs/1970/03/rphysap_1970__5_3_455_0/rphysap_1970__5_3_455_0.html

Barrington Bond · 10 June 2010

Got this a while back on Ebay...

Michel Van · 11 June 2010

B) THX Barrington Bond

Caravellarella · 16 April 2011

Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Retrofit · 16 April 2011

Re: French TSTO studies of the 60's | small boost-glide demonstrator project

antigravite said:
In the late 1960s and early 1970s France planned to test a small ASSET like, boost-glide experimental aerospace research vehicle called VERA.

Very little is known about it -- or rather remembered because as I can recall it got cancelled. The project is properly mentionned in Hallion's "Hypersonic Revolution" and may have helped engineers to gain some experience to carve out the Hermes project -- but this I am not sure and has to be fact checked.

Nord Aviation designed in the late 60s the hypersonic aircraft named VERAS (Véhicule Expérimental de Recherche Aérothermodynamique et Structurale - Structural and Aerothermodynamic Research Experimental Vehicle).
Max weight: 1500kg
Max speed Mach 10 during 30s at 50000m.

Sorry I could not remember from where I have copied this drawing of the VERAS.

ozmosis · 16 April 2011