British WW2 Turret Fighter Projects

Wingknut · 2 February 2008

Hello,
Can't find a source for this, but I think I've seen a profile of a proposed Spitfire variant with a second crew-position for a gunner and a remotely-aimed gun turret/barbette. Can anyone direct me to more info.? Likewise, does anyone know of other proposed turret-modifications of existing types (like the Blackburn Skua-to-Roc conversion)?
Just to forestall any misunderstanding: I mean a genuine turret-Spitfire design and not one of (e.g.) the many entertaining but totally hypothetical Spit-variants from 'The Spitfire Project', at http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/birds/spitfire/geheim/spitproject.htm
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Cheers,

'Wingknut'

red admiral · 2 February 2008

Supermarine Type 305, theres a bit of history in BSP 1935-1950 by Tony Buttler

Stats;
37ft span 30" 6' length 242sq ft wing area 5650lb all up weight 1x 1000hp Merlin Estimated maximum speed 315mph @ 15000ft. Armametn 4x0.303" Lewis guns in rear turret.

Apophenia · 2 February 2008

Three-view of Type 305 attached.

The Type 305 isn't quite a Spitfire yet. It was based on the January 1935 F.37/34 submission.

For the Type 305, the empennage and wings remained unchanged (other than removing the four wing guns). The fuselage is similar but the retractible radiator (behind cockpit) was replaced by a fixed chin position radiator.

waynos · 3 February 2008

There was a conversion of the Bristol Beaufighter with a power operated 4 gun turret straight behind the cockpit, which actually flew.

smurf · 3 February 2008

and a Mosquito, at least a mock-up

lark · 3 February 2008

Yes indeed Smurf , I saw a drawing (sideview) in a model magazine long time ago.
It seems it was a mock turret but there should also have
been a concept with a highly streamlined turret aimed by
a second crewmenber looking backwards on his seat...

(but this is faraway from the 'Spit turretfighter' idea...)

Justo Miranda · 3 February 2008

Please see attached
-Bristol Beaufighter V with turret from Warpaint Series No 1 . by Alan W. Hall
-Mosquito W4050 with turret , from Aeroplane , November 2000

Apophenia · 4 February 2008

Wingknut

AFAIK, the Hawker Demon was the first true turret fighter -- the Hart prototype J9933 was fitted with a Frazer Nash hydraulic turret (single Lewis gun) in 1934. Boulton Paul built the production turret Demons (which I guess shows the long-term value of direct production experience).

F.5/34 led to the Bristol Type 146 (Mercury IX/Perseus) evolving into a turret fighter (with a Perseus or Hercules) for F.9/35. The Hawker Hurricane led to their turret fighter, the Hotspur.

There is a sort of convergent evolution thing here. Both Hawker and Bristol types had morphed into two-seat army co-operation types (to meet A39/34 for a Audax/Hector replacement). Bristol's Type 146 became the two-seat Type 148. The Hurricane became the two-seat Henley to P.4/34 (for light bomber).

There was also a Fairey submission for F.5/34 based on the Battle. (Considering the timing, Fairey would have been better off basing its F.5/34 submission on their P.4/34 light bomber that eventually became the Fulmar prototype.)

I believe that the rest of the British turret fighter submissions were original designs. But how about turret fighter designs leading to non-turret fighters? Gloster's twin-Aquila F.5/33 turret fighter concept led to the built non-turreted twin-Taurus F.9/37. And then there was Boulton Paul's planned P.94 single-seater derived from the Defiant.

--------------
BTW, images attached came from Air International Vol4` No1 (with a bit of tweaking) and I added the Bristol Type 148 sideview to a re-arranged 3-view.

Wingknut · 4 February 2008

Hi
I know I said "Thanks in advance" in my original post but further thanks are definitely indicated for such helpful and informative posts - much appreciated.

Peter Allen's splendid 'Flitzerart' site (http://www.flitzerart.com/aircraft.htm) is already well-linked to these pages, but the 'British Secret Projects of WW2' page (http://www.flitzerart.com/bsecret.htm) has colour profiles and plans of original turreted designs like the Boulton Paul P97B and the Bristol F.11/37.
All best and thanks again,

'Wingknut'

Apophenia · 4 February 2008

Another turret Mosquito, this one with Bristol B.XI (from Air Int'l Vol 24 No2).

And a photo (from Planes Vol 1 No2) of Justo's turret Beaufighter sideview. The A&AEE test pilot made one of my favourite all-time comments: "entry into this aircraft is difficult; it is recommended that it is made impossible".

Wingknut · 18 August 2008

Below, three-view of the Boulton Paul P.92 turret-fighter.
Image comes from the following page on the P.92/2 flying scale model:
http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/boulton_p-92.php

hesham · 21 July 2011

Hi,

here is the Supermarine Type 305 for Spec. F9/35.

Nik · 21 July 2011

Was this targeted on the Boulton-Paul 'Defiant' niche ??

I can't see any forward-facing guns...

Apophenia · 21 July 2011

Yes, designed to the Demon replacement spec, F.9/35, for a 2-seat, four-gun turret fighter.

Armstrong Whitworth F.9/35 - 2 x AS Terrier pusher props, 4-gun turret behind and above pilot's cockpit. Prototype K8624 was to be an AW.34 conversion, order cancelled.

Boulton Paul P.82 = Defiant

Bristol Type 147: turret fighter development of single-seat Type 146 (and thus related to Type 148 army co-op for A.39/34). Turret was a well faired, remotely-controlled 4-gun barbette. Type 147 was Perseus powered, Type 147A was to have a Hercules.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3537.msg28110.html#msg28110

Fairey F.9/35: Hercules-powered engine and its four-gun turret, when facing rearwards, was blended flush with the pilot's cockpit.

Gloster F.9/35: single-engine (Hercules?) turret fighter

Hawker F.9/35 = Hotspur.

Supermarine 305: remote turret relative of Type 224. Originally planned with 4 x Brownings, Buttler says later plans replaced these guns with 4 x Lewis .303" guns.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3537.msg28022.html

Vickers F.9/35: Merlin-powered turret fighter

Stargazer · 21 July 2011

Funny how the Model 305 has been labelled as the "Gun Turret Spitfire" in some sources. From the top I understand, but in profile I can't see a hint of a similarity here... ???

Stargazer · 21 July 2011

Also you give the Bristol 147 as being Perseus-powered, while I have it with a Pegasus... Which is the correct version? ???

Apophenia · 21 July 2011

Stargazer2006 said:
Also you give the Bristol 147 as being Perseus-powered, while I have it with a Pegasus... Which is the correct version? ???

Stéphane: I believe that Perseus is correct -- being also used in another turret fighter, the Roc, and being intended for the Type 148. [BTW: the Type 148B had a Taurus so that engine might have been intended as an alternative for the Type 147.]

The Pegasus seems mostly to have been used in bomber types.

Stargazer2006 said:
Funny how the Model 305 has been labelled as the "Gun Turret Spitfire" in some sources. From the top I understand, but in profile I can't see a hint of a similarity here... ???

Too true. Some of the minor detail differences in wings and tailplane can be attributed to the relatively early stage of Type 300 development at the time that the Type 305 design was drawn.

lark · 23 July 2011

In the 'Turret Fighters-Defiant and Roc'- Crowood , Alec Brew
mentions two Bristol 147 entries to Spec.F9/35.
One with Perseus and one with Hercules.

In the Putnam about Bristol Aircraft they a labelled as Bristol 147A and Bristol 147B...

overscan (PaulMM) · 5 February 2016

Merged topics.

blackkite · 29 September 2017

Hi! Boulton Paul P.92 turret mockup.
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/311768-prototype-planes-branch-in-premium-part/

P.92 three side view drawing.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/xplane/p92.html

Avimimus · 29 September 2017

So I take it that the four Hispano turrets in the mockup didn't have room for a second crew member to help with reloading.

Would this also be true of the turrets in B.1/39 competition? See: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,29519.0.html

hesham said:
Hi,

here is the Supermarine Type 305 for Spec. F9/35.

The caption for the pictures says 6x20mm cannon - surely this is inaccurate?

Schneiderman · 29 September 2017

You are correct, I'd never noticed that before. Armament was 4 Brownings

blackkite · 30 September 2017

Hi! Larger image.
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=402.0

blackkite · 30 September 2017

Hi! Bristol 147 and 148.

http://alternathistory.com/semeistvo-opytnykh-istrebitelei-i-udarnykh-samoletov-bristol-146-147-i-148-velikobritaniya

Excellent contribution for Defiant project.(P.85A.P.85B, P.88, P.96, P.103A and B, P.105B and P.107, etc)
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8329.0/all.html

blackkite · 30 September 2017

Hi! Gloster F.34/35 and F.9/37 early configulation.
http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=21240.0

Later F.9/37.
https://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/424-gloster-twin-engined-fighters/

PDF file.
https://www.docdroid.net/VnPdqKb/gloster-f9-37-aeroplane-monthly-magazine-2006-02.pdf#page=3

blackkite · 1 October 2017

Hi! Defiant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce9My4IKydo

blackkite · 1 October 2017

F.18/40 Night fighter with turret.
Boulton Paul P.97B.
Picture source.
http://raigap.livejournal.com/474600.html

Good explanation.
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_boulton_paul_P97.html
"The P.97 was designed with several alternative armament layouts. The most conventional had fixed forward firing cannon and the Turret from the Boulton Paul Defiant carried above the wing (P.97B). There was also a version with the standard cannon but without the turret (P.97A). A raised navigator's position replaced the turret. In both cases the six cannon were to be carried in a weapons bay within the central nacelle, below the mid mounted wings.

A more radical version would have been armed with twin 20mm cannon, carried in slots on either side of the nose, and capable of moving up or down. This would have been for ground attack missions, allowing the aircraft to fly level while hitting ground targets. Although the P.97 didn’t get built, the movable cannon concept was used in a modified form on the post-war Avro Shackleton. "

blackkite · 1 October 2017

Bouton Paul P.96.

Good explanation.
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_boulton_paul_P96.html

Model picture.
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6259.30

THree side view drawing.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/airfix-2011-special-what-if-gb-drtemplar-s-boulton-t29885.html

Schneiderman · 2 October 2017

blackkite said:
Miles M.22 alternative version had four gun turret.

Four guns, yes. Turret, no.

blackkite · 2 October 2017

Hi! Blackburn Skua.
Generally Skua is called bomber, but had fighter role.

blackkite · 2 October 2017

Hi! Blackburn Roc floatplane prototype. And retracted turret fairing.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aircraft_of_the_Fleet_Air_Arm,_1939-1945_-_Blackburn_Roc_floatplane.jpg

blackkite · 2 October 2017

Schneiderman said:
blackkite said:

Miles M.22 alternative version had four gun turret.

Click to expand...

Four guns, yes. Turret, no.

Ummm.....Which opinion is correct?

I added Skua.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3537.15.html

Johnbr · 3 October 2017

Schneiderman · 3 October 2017

blackkite said:
Schneiderman said:

blackkite said:

Miles M.22 alternative version had four gun turret.

Click to expand...

Four guns, yes. Turret, no.

Click to expand...

Ummm.....Which opinion is correct?

Well since the original post with the M.22 hs been removed I guess you know. The 3-view clearly showed four fixed guns in the nose and no turret.

blackkite · 3 October 2017

Terrible sorry I made a mistake. I deleted M22A three side view drawing contrary to intention.

How do you think about the possibility of Miles M.22A alternative version.

blackkite · 3 October 2017

Defiant had same retractable turret fairling, too. Sorry for off topic.
The first picture shows Battle of Britain.

https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/561753753502559413/

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/127812-campaign-for-the-39turreted-oddity39-the-p82-boulton-paul-defiant/

Schneiderman · 3 October 2017

blackkite said:
How do you think about the possibility of Miles M.22 alternative version.

Don Brown says that Miles suggested a version with a Boulton Paul turret but that is not the one in the drawing, which has four fixed cannon in the nose

blackkite · 3 October 2017

Thanks a lot.

blackkite · 4 October 2017

Hi! Bristol F.11/37.

F.11/37 Twin-engine two-seat day & night fighter/ground support

http://fantastic-plastic.com/BristolF11-37.htm

https://notiforo.com/foros/viewtopic.php?t=14475&start=50

blackkite · 5 October 2017

Hi! Hawker Hotspur.
Hotspur's base is Henley.

Hotspur Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hotspur
"The Hawker Hotspur was a Hawker Henley redesigned to take a Boulton-Paul semi-powered four gun turret. It was designed in response to Air Ministry Specification F.9/35, which required a powered turret as the main armament to replace the Hawker Demon."

"In the same fashion as the Henley, the Hotspur used standard Hurricane outer wing panels. One prototype aircraft, K8309, was built in 1937, fitted with armament of four 0.303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns in a Boulton Paul dorsal turret plus one .303 in (7.7 mm) Vickers machine gun mounted in the front fuselage. The completion of the prototype was delayed until 1938, by which time the rival Boulton Paul Defiant had already flown. The Hotspur first flew on 14 June 1938 with only a wooden mock-up of the turret and with ballast equivalent to the weight of armament."

Henley wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Henley

Hotspur picture source.
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/273530-hawker-hotspur/
Henley picture source.
http://www.svida.cz/horrido/index.php?id=209
Hotspur three side view drawing source.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/hotspur.html
Henley three side view drawing spurce.
http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/hawker_henley.php

British WW2 Turret Fighter Projects

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