XC-Medium - Alternatives to the Lockheed C-130 Hercules?

In 1957 the USAF put forward a Request for Proposal (RfP) to the aircraft industry for a Tactical Air Command Transport as a replacement for its large and venerable fleet of Fairchild C-82/C-119 Flying Boxcar, and Douglas C-47 Dakota.
This competition would eventually be won by the Lockheed Model 82, which would become the famous and versatile workhouse the C-130 Hercules.

But the Request for Proposal was answered by three other aviation / aerospace companies. These three other companies were Fairchild with a four- engine, long wingspan variant of the C-119 Flying Boxcar; Boeing with their Model 495; while the remaining company was Douglas (design unknown).

The above information on the other three companies is all that I have.
Does anyone have any information, drawings and specifications on these other submitted designs?

Regards
Pioneer

Hi all, since I'm new here, i feel obliged to post something for a start . I choose this topic, that's going unanswered till now. Here's a fine 3-view of the Boeing submission. Source: Naval Institute Press's Boeng Aircraft since 1916. Data that I have: Four P&W T-34P-6 (5700 HPs each), Span 140 ft, lenght 112 ft 10 in, gross weight 143.500 lbs

Regards!

Skybolt said:

Hi all, since I'm new here, i feel obliged to post something for a start . I choose this topic, that's going unanswered till now. Here's a fine 3-view of the Boeing submission. Source: Naval Institute Press's Boeng Aircraft since 1916. Data that I have: Four P&W T-34P-6 (5700 HPs each), Span 140 ft, lenght 112 ft 10 in, gross weight 143.500 lbs

Regards!

Click to expand...

I just wanted to mention that your 260KB .tif file would only be 48KB as a .gif.

Incidentally, the T-34 was also proposed for the cancelled turboprop derivative of the Lockheed Super Constellation.

These are 1948-ish designs *IIRC*, but they may well have had a lot to do with Fairchild's eventual C-130 competitor...

[image links broken - Admin]

The 6-engine variant kind of looks a lot like a tadpole, doesn't it?

Chris
---------------------------------
Speculative Warplane Designs

Your first picture is titled C82-2a, does it mean this is a Packet II? Nice... ;D

The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Well, the accepted wisdom on the competiton that back in 1951 produced the Hercules run as: USAF asked four companies to tender proposals; they were Lockeed, Boeing, Douglas, Fairchild. All tendered four engine aircrafts; Lockeed won. The Boeing project has been published in another topic; nothing is known on the Douglas one; the Fairchild is rumoured of being inspired by the C-119; Lockeed design was Preliminary L-206, later Model 82. Right?
Well, today, doing research on old issues of Aviation Week (1951) and looking for something else (early american civilian jet transport concepts) , I stumbled in a news (Issue for July 9, 1951, page 16) saying that Lockeed has just won the competiton. What initially caught my eye was the summary describing the competiton as a "five-company contest". More surprises were to come: i summarize them here. If someone wants the entire article, I can scan it and send but this is the essential.
All that follows are form AW (in brackets my comments)

USAF invited nine companies to the competiton: Lockeed, Boeing, Douglas, Chase, Airlifts Inc (more on this later), Fairchild, Martin, North American, Northop.
The LAST FOUR declined (Fairchild out!!!)

The five remaining submitted nine desgns in all: five powered by Allison T-38 turboprops; three by Allison T-40 (paired T-38s); one by piston Wright R-3350 Compound (until now it was supposed that requirement was for turboprop aircraft; moreover, from some hints in the articles, i.e. explicitly citing one or another proposal as four-engine, it may be inferred that some proposals, probably the T-40-powered ones, were two-engine).
Douglas proposed three different projects, one was the R-3550 one; Chase Aircraft submitted three; Airlifts Inc submitted a scaled up Burnellil derived design described as flyign wing (Airlft in 1945 acquired the prototype of a Burnelli aircraft plus plans plus rights on them); Boeing submitted one design (we know it); Lockeed two (completely ignored in the official rendition of the early C-130 history by Lockeed sources).
Gross weight at TO run from 100.000 lbs of the smallest of the Chase designs to 140.000 lbs of the larger Lockeed, not chosen, design.
Lockeed win was a very close affair with a Douglas four-engine design (the other Douglas two was the piston one a and a two-turboprop powered by T-40).
Porbaaly the heavier Lockeed proposal was a two turboprop T-40 powered one too.
That's it. Pretty muffling, in my opinion. ??? Could AW be so wrong on Fairchild and nueber of competitors writing just a couple of days (offical Lockeed win was announche July 2 1951), since AV cites USAF spokesman. And how everyone repeats the same old version when a very different (and intriguig, think abouth the numerous fan of Burnelli) one is available in a multi-thousand copies a week magazine preserved in hundreds of libraries? A good subject for a FOIA, that's it...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

Sigh, I hoped to stir a debate... :'( cargo aircraft aain't such a popular subject, it seems

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

I'd like to post my contributions but this topic, I have found it very interesting but it's totally unknown to me, I'm sorry :-[

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

same think... what can I add ? That the C-130 was launched when the turboprops were on the verge to replace the piston engines ? Interesting thought... a C-130 with four R-3350...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

;D Hoped someone had info on the Burnelli-like proposal, for instance..
Anyway, thanks friends!
And, BTW, it remains a mistery to me why the wrong data on the competion circulated for so long. I suspect because the problem with aviation history (all history, I fear) is that people tend to copy from previous sources without ever confronting with the primary ones. To correct things, for a start, I modified the Wikipedia entry on the Hercules development. Now let's see the propagation time on the web 8)

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

I'm on the search , but I can't say much yet.
(have to dig deep in my files)

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

Meanwhile, I tracked down explanations of the Chase's "writing off" from the accepted wisdom on the C-130 competition, and of refusal to compete by Fairchild, too.
As an heritage of the WW2, during the Korea War the US activated a multiple source system to produce aircrafts. The Kaiser-Frazer Company (Michigan), don't know if it's the same Kaiser of the Liberty ships and the Spruce Goose (ooops, the First Hercules), in December 1950 received by the USAF an order to second source Fairchild 119Fs. Later, between 1951 and 1952, Chase offered a version of its XG-20 assault glider powered by two R-2800s. USAF liked it and called it the C-123 Avitruck, ordering five pre-production planes. In late 1952 USAF decided that they wanted full scale production of the C-123, but Chase lacked the plants to pursue it. So USAF turned to Kaiser-Frazer, that simply bought ouit the Chase Company and started to produce the C-123 in the same plant of the second-source C-119. But the USAF wasn't happy of the way K-F worked (high costs, low quality), so in June 1953 cancelled the C-119 contract, and with it went also the C-123 one. Subsequently, the Air Force invited a score of companies to submit bids to produce C-123s. Fairchild wasn't in the invited list, but at the very last moment they obtained the permission to bid and won (their bid was the lowest price one). So the sole product of Chase went to Fairchild and after some other circonvolutions it became the Provider. Technically, Fairchild didn't buy Chase, practically yes. This is the reason why, I think, Chase's name dropped out of the accepted wisdom.
As for the Fairchild's itself refusal to bid on the C-130, simply they thought they already had won, or, better, that an aircraft they did and was already flying would rrlegate the new comer to oblivion. The aircraft was the XC-119H, Model 160, with a longer wing and Wright R-3550-30W Turbo Compound engines.

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

Hoped someone had info on the Burnelli-like proposal, for instance..

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OK, I'll jump: my first post here. Hope I'll get it right. Hello, everyone!

I only have a photo of a 1952 Burnelli concept. I have no idea how close it is to the 1951 entry into that YC-130 competition, but that is the closest I have.

[Image links broken - Admin]

This 1952 design was promoted as a flying car-ferry concept. A Carvair of sorts.

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

Thanks dan_inbox! Actually yhe design wsn't Burnell's strictly speaking. Airlifts Inc. in lat '40s acquired the CBY-3 Loadmaster (built by Canadian Car and Foudry in 1945) with design rights. The AW articke says that Airlifts proposed a scaled-ud design, I assume a scaled-up CBY-3. In the end, could be it was similar to the 1953 Burnelli original design. I think something can be found in patents.

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

Welcome onboard Dan

Nice drawing. Burnelli designs are fantastic. It looks very competent as an assault transport because it has two cargo ramps. A first sight it seems better than the classical single ramp designs we are habituated since the end of WWII. Why this concept never succeded?

Dan, do you know which was the intended powerplant?. It seems a turboprop powered design.

Cheers

Antonio

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

Bibbidee, bobbidee, booo...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

Very similar to the artwork Dan posted. Nice find!

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

The Burnelli CBY-3 Loadmaster was intensively studied by Fairchild in the early fifties. They had licence production for an improved version in mind.

The Ballard Corporation studied also two improved Loadmaster variants. (Loadmaster II and III). The III version had longer wings and was a turboprop powered design.

In 1950 Burnelli proposed 2 turboprop freighter designs. The CB-7 and the CB-8. Both designs had large rear loading doors and were were driven by two contraprops. I found no relation yet to the C-130 competition.

Boeing model 495 of 1950 was a known contender. Fairchild YC-119H Skyvan was also in the competition but Fairchild had also a four engined derivative of the C-119 in the game.

About the Douglas contender is no info found yet. For a while I was thinking about the Douglas 1940 design but this came later and was not in the competition.

To be continued...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competiton ?

[quote author=pometablava]A first sight it seems better than the classical single ramp designs we are habituated since the end of WWII. Why this concept never succeded?

Dan, do you know which was the intended powerplant?. It seems a turboprop powered design.[/quote]
I agree it looks like a turboprop. I don't know any more. I'm not even sure Burnelli's concept got far enough in its development to firm up this choice.

On why it never caught up, I guess 2 reasons:
A fuselage has bound to be a very thick wing, which is not going to be efficient at today's speeds.
And most seats have no windows.
I'd even guess this combination is why he went into cargo concepts.

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

On why it never caught up, I guess 2 reasons:
A fuselage has bound to be a very thick wing, which is not going to be efficient at today's speeds.
And most seats have no windows.
I'd even guess this combination is why he went into cargo concepts.

Click to expand...

Ah, but you forget the "suppression conspiracy"..

Moreover, the patent I found yesterday is clearly one of the two Latrk cited: CB-7 and -8. Today I'll dig more.
As I already said, Burnelli himself had nothing to do with the C-130 competition. Airlifts Inc (from Florida, BTW) had, via a derivative of the CBY-3 they bought with rights on the desing in late '40s.
AW article explicitly says that Farichild (along with Martin, North American and Northrop) declined to enter the competition. Probably they had a four-engine C-119 study ongoing, but they thought the C-119H was a more clear possibility. Or it could be that the four-engine aircraft attributed to Fairchild was really a Chase one... FOIA, FOIA, we need FOIAs every time... ???

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

And this is the four-engine beast (CB-8 ?)

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Lookin' very much like the Canadian Car&Foundry B-2000B SuperBomber. This 222ft span aircraft was the CCF 's proposal in the 1942 B-36 competition. Power : 8 Allison 3420 coupled in 4's so that each pair provided 5.000 h.p.

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

lark, we need pics of this monster!!!!

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Think we need a separate thread devoted to the Burnelli designs...
(not to the conspiracy theories)

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

lark said:

Lookin' very much like the Canadian Car&Foundry B-2000B
SuperBomber.
This 222ft span aircraft was the CCF 's proposal in the
1942 B-36 competition.

Power : 8 Allison 3420 coupled in 4's so hat
each pair provided 5.000 h.p.

Click to expand...

::BLINKS:: 8 W3420s? That sucker had to be huge to need that much power!! Then again, the B-36 always was a touch under-powered. Hmm...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Burnelli designs had a lot of frontal drag...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Sorry Lark, but do you have drawings of the Boeing model 495 and the Fairchild YC-119H Skyvan ???


Regards
Pioneer

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

lark said:

Lookin' very much like the Canadian Car & Foundry B-2000B SuperBomber.

Click to expand...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Pioneer , if you have a bit of time will you take a look in your messages .(inbox)

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

As I said, good topics never die..
It seems that the other Lockheed proposal was centered around a detachable payload module. It had four turboprops. I'll scan and post the 3-view, which incidentally comes from a Bill Slayton' s article...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Skybolt said:

As I said, good topics never die..
It seems that the other Lockheed proposal was centered around a detachable payload module. It had four turboprops. I'll scan and post the 3-view, which incidentally comes from a Bill Slayton' s article...

Click to expand...

Hay Skybolt
What happend?
Are you teasing me??????

Regards
Pioneer

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

I humbly join the ranks of the supplicants . Show us the three view, pretty please!!!

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Sometimes I lapse...

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Worth the wait ;D
Grazie!

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Skybolt said:

Sometimes I lapse...

Click to expand...

Thanks Skybolt
I never mind waiting for great find like this!
Hay your human after all!!!! ;D ;D


Regards
Pioneer

Chris707 said:

These are 1948-ish designs *IIRC*, but they may well have had a lot to do with Fairchild's eventual C-130 competitor...

The 6-engine variant kind of looks a lot like a tadpole, doesn't it?

Chris
---------------------------------
Speculative Warplane Designs
http://www.dataviewbooks.com

Click to expand...

Sorry gents, but can anyone tell me where these pics have gone??
Regards
Pioneer

Pioneer said:

Sorry gents, but can anyone tell me where these pics have gone??

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Well as usual, the pictures were linked instead of attached. And so when the site goes down, temporarily or permanently, they no longer appear.

The site in question here displays an "Undergoing revision" sign when you try and access the photos directly. In all likelihood the pics (if they are kept in the new version) will probably have changed names or be moved around.

Re: The "real" YC-130 competition ?

Skybolt said:

Sometimes I lapse...

Click to expand...

And here is a more info about Lockheed L-206;


http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2014/02/off-drawing-boardlockheed-l-206.html

Photo of a model of a 4-engined C-119H derivative being examined during a very important engineering meeting in Maryland, taken from an old AW&ST. I recall seeing an internal Lockheed report describing an anticipated 4-engined turboprop C-119 variant as the greatest threat to the C-130, but the model appears to depict radial engines. BTW, the ashtray on the table appears to be a Fairchild promo item like ones occasionally turning up on eBay.

Hi everybody. I try to find infos on the projects that Boeing , Douglas , and Fairchild studied, to compete with the original YC130 Hercules. I could not find any datas or pictures. It was based on a General operational requirements of Feb.2nd. 1951. any clues? thanks. HG