Breda Aircraft Designations

Breda (Societa Italiana Ernesto Breda), Milan

I've had a stab at Breda aircraft designations but, as usual, there's lots of holes to fill. One puzzle is the attached single-seat biplane identified as "Apparecchio Breda HP 270, Ponte San Pietro 11/22/26".

http://www.ceraunavoltapontesanpietro.com/gallery/campo_aviazione/Campo+aviazione/estesa/all
http://www.ceraunavoltapontesanpietro.com/popup.php?url=campo_aviazione/|JespcHtP.jpg Original View

Can anyone identify this little biplane? At a glance, it seems to be a scaled-down Breda A.1. But that doesn't fit the description of any of the models found so far. Might this single-seater be the 'missing' Breda A.5 or A.6? Along with the registration I-BASV, the number '73' is painted on the fuselage side. Might 73 be a Breda numero di costruzione? It seems unlikely that it is a type number. Any ideas on this aircraft?

Breda (Societa Italiana Ernesto Breda) Aircraft Designations

Breda Designations - Anomolies

Early Breda designations used prefix letters followed by numbers. But those numbers were duplicated and, in the case of the B.x series and M.1, do not appear to be consecutive with later Breda type numbers. Further duplication occurred when the designation B.1 was applied to an airliner conversion of a Breda-built Caproni Ca.5 bomber, B.1 having been previously applied to the Breda-Pensuit triplane.

When Breda licenced-built aircraft, these usually retained their original designations. Examples are: the Caproni Ca.5 and Ca.44 bombers; the CAB C.1, C.2, SC.4, SC.5 light aircraft, etc. In other cases, where Breda modified an existing type, the designer's name was simply added - as with the Breda Tebaldi-Zari fighter (see also the Breda-Pittoni and Breda-Zappata designations at the end of this list).


Breda-Pensuit B.1 - 1918 single-seat triplane, 6-cyl Anzani, 4.00m span
-- Emilio Pensuti's 1918 recce a/c, desig. may represent Breda + c/n 01
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8743.msg80376.html

Breda-Pensuit B.2 - 191? 2-seat triplane light a/c, 6-cyl Anzani, x 1 I-BADZ
- B.2: 'Triplanino' 2-seat light a/c deriv from B.1, B.2 from c/n 02 [?]
-- 'Ba.1' has been applied to B.2 (prob. a mistake springing from B.1)
-- NB: Jan den Das claim a variant with 80 hp Breda V-8 was also built

Breda B.1 - 1920 twin-engined twin-boomed biplane 6 pax airliner, 25m span
- B.1: Enclosed-cabin airliner conversion of surplus Caproni Ca.5 bomber
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14684.msg146557.html#msg146557
-- NB: Here the B.1 conv. is simply listed as 'Breda 1' and dated 1922
-- http://www.associazioni.milano.it/isec/mostra%20Breda/pagine/1920-45/aerei/paeron4.htm

Breda M.1 - 1919 twin-engined twin-boomed biplane 8 pax airliner, 23.40m span
- M.1: Enclosed-cabin airliner conversion of surplus Ca.44 bomber, aka Ca.57

Breda Tebaldi-Zari - 1922 modification to original Tebaldi-Zari fighter prototype
- Breda Tebaldi-Zari: 1 300 hp Hispano-Suiza HS 42 V-8, 2 x 7.7mm Vickers
-- Mods: long span/narrow chord upper wing, diff. stagger, removable lower wings
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12979.msg129300.html

Breda CC Designations - from the aircrafts' designers, Ing Crocco and Ing Costanzi*

[* Note, these engineers worked for the Italian military, not for Breda. Generale Gaetano Arturo Crocco founded the Istituto Centrale Aeronautico. Giulio Cesare Costanzi founded that istitute's experimental laboratory.]

Breda CC.20 - 1929 trimotor monoplane bomber, 2 x IF Asso A.500, 42m span 1 prototype
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12312.0.html

Breda CC.2000 - alternative desig. for CC.20 (based on total installed horsepower)

Breda CC.3000 - 193? trimotor monoplane, more powerful derivative of the CC.20
-- NB: Les Ailes n° 462 purports to illustrate CC.3000 (but looks same as CC.20)

_____________________________________________

Breda (Societa Italiana Ernesto Breda) Aircraft Designations

Breda Designations - Numerical Sequence

Breda, itself, did not apply Ba. abbreviation to its designations, preferring the simpler Breda xx form (the familiar Ba. prefix was applied to Breda designations by the Ministero dell'Aeronautica and Regia Aeronautica). The Breda A.x numbers seem to be consecutive with later designations. B.x, numbers, M.x, etc. are included among the anomalous Breda designations listed above.

Breda A.1 -- Possibly the 1924 Aviatik-derived 4-bay biplane light aircraft
-- Arguments that 'A.1' designation never existed (number held by B.1)
- A.1 : (??) 1 x 130 hp Colombo 110/D 6-cyl. inline engine; span 10.20 m
- A.1 : (??) Derived from SAML A-3 in turn, derived from Aviatik designs*
-- * Aviatik's Robert Wild went to Società Anonima Meccanica Lombarda

Breda A.2 -- 1921 low-winged monoplane light aircraft; x 1
- A.2: Multi-purpose a/c; cantilever wings; open cockpits
- A.2: 1 x 250 hp I-F Asso 200 6-cylinder;* span 13.00 m
- A.2: (As built) 3-seat sports/tourer; 2 x pax fwd/pilot aft
- A.2: (proposed) mail-carrier, light transport; colonial a/c
-- * 130 hp Colombo 110/D mentioned; unclear if installed
-- Prototype I-BRIO (c/n 101) used in civilian flight schools

Breda A.3 -- 1924 sesquiplane* night bomber, 1 x prototype
- A.3: 4 x 200 hp Breda/SPA.6A 6-cyl. inlines; span 27.00 m
- A.3: (As built) 4 x 200 hp SPA 6A inline 6-cylinder engines
- A.3: (As mod.) 2 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db V-12s**
-- * Semi-cantilever sesquiplane; inners Warren truss braced
-- ** This 'engine change' may be confusion with Breda A.8

Breda A.4 -- 1927 2-bay biplane tandem 2-seat light trainer
- A.4: light a/c or trainer in wheeled landplane configuration
- A.4: 1 x 130 hp Colombo 110D 6-cyl. inline; span 10.90 m
- A.4 HS: (Hispano-Suiza) As base A.4 but with a V8 engine
- A.4 HS: 1 x 180 hp Hispano-Suiza 8Ab V8; span 10.90 m
- A.4 Idro: Twin-float seaplane w/ enlarged vertical tail fin

Breda A.5 -- 192? multi-engined heavy bomber prototype, x 1
- A.5: Push-pull engines; semi-cantilever wings, Warren truss
-- Note strong similarity between Breda's A.5 and A.3 (above)
- A.5: 4 x 200 hp Breda/SPA.6A 6-cyl. inlines; span 23.00 m*
- A.5: Night bomber submission to RA; 700 kg load; crew x 3
-- * 27.00 m span also claimed; 220 hp overboost for SPA.6A
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/1-png.566900/

Breda A.6 -- (??)

Breda A.7 -- 1926 2-seat parasol reconnaissance a/c, x 2 + 12
- A.7 LD: (Lorraine-Dietrich) Prototypes; x 2; c/n 601 & c/n 602
- A.7 LD: 1 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db V12; span 15.78 m
- A.7 Asso: (Isotta-Fraschini) Series production type, x 12
- A.7 Asso: 1 x 500 hp Isotta-Fraschini Asso 500 AQ V12 engine
- A.7 idro: A.7 Asso when mounted on twin-float landing gear
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1928/1928 - 0190.html photo/3v
- A.7 Raid: Long-range vers., later redesig'd A.16, then Ba.16

Breda A.8 -- 1927 sesquiplane night bomber prototype; x 1
- A.8: As revised A.3 but engines mounted on lower wings
- A.8: Further development of revised Breda A.3 prototype
-- Semi-cantilever sesquiplane; inners Warren truss braced
- A.8: (As built, 2 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich; span 23.00 m
-- Same Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db V12s as on modified A.3
- A.8: (As modified) 2 x 500 hp Isotta-Fraschini Asso V12s

Breda A.9 -- 1928* 2-bay biplane tandem 2-seat basic trainer, x 36
- Breda A.9 : 1 x 250 hp Isotta-Fraschini V.6 inline; span 9.32 m
-- * Breda A.9 I-BAZP was registered in 1927 (perhaps before flying?)
- Breda A.9 bis: 1930 single-seat aerobatics trainer; span 8.72 m

Breda A.10 - 1928* 2-bay biplane tandem 2-seat intermediate trainer**
- Breda A.10 : combined features of the A.9 and A.9 bis types (qv)
- Breda A.10 : 1 x 250 hp Isotta-Fraschini V.6 6-cylinder; span 8.84m
-- * Breda A.10 I-BAUD registered in 1927 (but perhaps before flying?)
-- ** Breda A.10 listed in some sources as single-seat fighter-trainer
-- ** Perhaps confusion with A.9 aerobatics trainer with same span?

Breda A.11-A.12 - (??)

Breda A.13 -- (??) Conflicting claims of very different aircraft types
- A.13 : (??) Possibly same as below; later redesignated Breda A.14
- A.13 : (??) Possibly an utterly unrelated aerobatics trainer type

Breda A.14 -- 1928 5-6 seat trimotor biplane bomber; 1 prototype
- A.14: Unequal-span, 2-bay biplane wings + Breda biplane tails
- A.14: 3 x 410 hp Alfa Romeo Jupiter 9-cyl radials; span 23.06 m
- A.14: Resemblance to A.8 but a trimotor biplane not sequiplane
- A.14: No interest from RA; rebuilt as an enclosed cabin airliner
-- NB: Some say aka Ba.14; others say 1st in sequence was Ba.15

Ba.15 - 1928 2-seat tandem high-wing monoplane light cabin a/c
- Ba.15 : 1 x light aero-engines (various types);* span 10.80 m
-- * Eg: Cirrus III; DH Gipsy; Colombo S.53; Walter Mars; I-F Asso 80 Ri
-- * Ba.15 OO-ASI was tested with a 110 hp
- Ba.15 bis: Poss. one-off variant (no details); c/n 2402;** I-SABO
-- ** NB: Air Britain gives I-SABO as c/n 3137 - a standard Ba.15
- Ba.15 idro: 1928 Ba.15 versione idro on twin floats; x 34
- Ba.15N: 1937, I-APOL, I-AAAR, etc.,; 21 x Ba.15N variants
- Ba.15S: New elliptical wings; x 54; range of engines available
-- Argus AS 8 IV-8; Walter 85, Venus, Colombo 118, 115 hp I-F 8T
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1929/1929 - 0958.html photo/3v
- Ba.15S idro: 1931 twin-float seaplane Ba.15S; 1 x I-FERD
- Ba.15ter: 1933 variant; x 23; I-ACQB, I-ACQD, I-ACQE, I-ACQS
-- NB: Gloster fit G-ABCC w/ Ugo Antoni's variable-camber wings
-- https://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/FT/FT1933/10/715-1.jpg

A.16 -- 1929 2-seat parasol monoplane reconnaissance a/c, x 1*
- A.16: 1 x 500 hp I-F Asso 500 AQ V12 engine, span 15.78 m
- A.16: Developed from A.7, orig. desig.A.7 Raid (long-range)
-- * Prototype I-TALI; possibly both A.16 & Ba.16 desig. applied
-- * Alt. I-TALI re-eng'd with Jupiter became Breda Ba.16 (qv)

Ba.17 - (??)

Ba.18 - 1929 light aircraft for Guggenheim safety a/c competition
- Ba.18 : Poss. Ba.15 high-winged cabin a/c based (l'ala d'Italia)
- Ba.18 : 1 x 150 hp Walter Mars I 9-cylinder radial; span (??) m

Ba.19 - 1930 single-engined 2-bay biplane aerobatic trainer; x 41
- Ba.19: Pallavicino/Panzeri design for RA flying school trainers
- Ba.19: Prototype, 1 x 200 hp Armstrong-Siddeley Lynx radial
- Ba.19: Production; 1 x 215-240 hp radial; span 9.00 m; x 23
-- Early production; 1 x 240 hp Walter Castor 7-cylinder radial
-- Later production; 1 x 215 hp Alfa Romeo Lynx 7-cyl. radial
- Ba.19 bis: Improved 1- and 2-seaters, 215 hp A-R Lynx, x 18
- Ba.19 ter: Impr. 2-seat, 1 x 260 hp AS Cheetah IIA 7-cyl., x 1

Ba.20 - (??) sometimes conflated w/ 1929 C.C.20 trimotor bomber
NB: Ba.20 appears on David Lednicer's airfoil list, other refs typos
- "Breda Ba.20 samolot bombowo-nurkujacy (prototyp)" (for Ba.201?)
- "il XXXV Gruppo Autonomo montato sui Breda Ba 20 " (for Ba.65 ?)

Ba.21-Ba.22 - (??)

Ba.23 - (Project) Details are highly sketchy
- Ba.23: (??) Possibly Ba.19 variant/ lead up to Ba.25 trainer (??)
- Ba.23: (??) Possibly a Breda light transport design/concept (??)

Ba.24 - (??)

Ba.25 - 1931 2-bay biplane, RA intermediate* trainer; x 719
- Ba.25: Evolved Ba.19 airframe; spats and Townsend ring
-- * Single-seater Ba.25 considered advanced trainer by RA
- Ba.25: Prototype; single-seater, derived from later Ba.19
- Ba.25/Lynx: Prod. two-seater, 215 hp Alfa Romeo Lynx
- Ba.25/D2: As above but 250 hp Alfa Romeo D2 C.30 radial
- Ba.25/Mezzo-Asso: 1 x 250 hp Isotta Fraschini Asso 200*
-- * IF Asso 200 previously called Mezzo Asso ('Half Ace')
- Ba.25 Ridotto: Aerobatic variant with reduced wing span
- Ba.25 I: Twin-float seaplane; enlarged rudder; 42 x built
- Ba.25 bis: 1932 improved vers. (may also refer to Ba.28)

Ba.26 - 1936 2-seat primary trainer derivative of Ba.25; x 1
- Ba.26: Longer-spanned but lower-powered primary trainer
- Ba.26: 1 x 130 hp Walter NZ-120 9-cylinder; span 11.60 m
-- Ba.26 I-ABFM proved to be a poor performer, cancelled

Ba.27 - 1933 low-wing single-seat monoplane fighter, x 14
- Ba.27: Wire-braced wings; inspired by Travel Air Type R*
-- * 'Mystery Ship' 11717 bought by Italy for RA as MM185
- Ba.27: Prototype fighters; wooden wing construction; x 2
- Ba.27 prototypes: 1 x 530 hp Alfa Romeo Mercurius VI
-- 1st: MM.216; orig. 2-blade prop, repl. by metal 3-blade
-- 2nd: MM.217; enlarged tailplane compared with MM.216
- Ba.27 M: 1934; refined & revised; aka Ba.27 Metallico
- Ba.27 M: 1 x 530 hp A-R Mercurius VI; span 10.70 m
-- China ordered 18 x Ba.27 Ms; only 11 delivered to RoCAF

Ba.28 - 1934 export variant biplane advanced trainer, x (??)
- Ba.28: Ba.25 devel. for export; single- & 2-seat versions
- Ba.28: Higher-powered Ba.25 devel. meant for export
- Ba.28: 1 x 380 hp Piaggio Stella P.VIIZ;* span 9.60 m
-- Ailerons both wings, cowl, spinner, & idro-style rudder
- Ba.28 idro: Twin float version exported to Norway
-- * Some Ba.28 may have spec'd Gnome-Rhône 7K radials
-- Afghan. (2), Austria (12), Norway, (6)RoC (18), Spain (6)
- Ba.28: Ba.25 deriv.* built both single- and two-seat config.

Ba.29-Ba.31 - (??)
-- Note: Ba.29AS is a 'what if' creation

Breda Ba.32 - 1931 trimotor 10 pax monoplane airliner; x 2*
- Ba.32: Cantilever monoplane; spatted u/c; light transport
- Ba.32: 3 x 320 hp P&W Wasp Junior 9-cyl.; span 26.67 m
- Ba.32: 1931 I-SEBM; good flying characteristics; no orders
- Ba.32: 1935 I-ADDB; Fiat engines;** to Regia Aeronautica
-- * I-ADDB may have been a simple re-engining of I-SEBM
-- ** Probably 3 x 320 hp Fiat A.55 7-cylinder radial engines
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1932/1932 - 0275.html 3v

Ba.33 - 1931 2-seat touring monoplane with fixed u/c, x (?)
- Ba.33: Palavicchino design; spats and strut-braced wings
- Ba.33 serie 1: 1 x 120 hp DH Gipsy III 4-cyl.; span 9.40 m
- Ba.33 serie 2: DH Gipsy II or 130 hp Colombo S.63 6-cyl.
- Ba.33S: Rear-set, enclosed cockpit, 130 hp Colombo S.63
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1932/1932 - 0840.htm photos/3v

Ba.34 - (??)

Ba.35 - (Project?) Listed as a Cesare Pallavicino design
- Ba.35: no details
-- Note: Ba.35 is seen as a 'what if' Ba.65

Ba.36-Ba.38 - (??)

Ba.39 - 1932 2-seat low-wing braced-monoplane tourer, x 100
- Ba.39: Enlarged derivative of Ba.33; meant for military use
- Ba.39: 1 x 130 hp Colombo S.63 6-cyl.; span 10.40 m; x 60
- Ba.39 Metr: (Metropolitano); for home military use; x 20
- Ba.39 Col : (Coloniale); for colonial use by military; x 20
- Ba.39S: 1934 3-seater; x 3 MM55848, I-LUDA, I-LUDO, I-VICE

Ba.40-Ba.41 - (??)

Ba.42 - 1934 2-seat low-wing braced-monoplane tourer; x 3*
- Ba.42: More powerful, radial-engined development of Ba.39
- Ba.42: 1 x 180 hp Fiat A.70 S 7-cyl. radial; span 10.10 m
- Ba.42: Devel. for 1934 Challenge de Tourisme International
-- Ba.42 also differed in Breda-Mazzini wing slots repl. slats
-- * Ba.42s were registered as I-GOGA, I-RANA, and I-OMBO

Ba.44 - 1934 licenced DH.89 Dragon Rapide feederliner; x 6
- Ba.44: Equal-spanned biplane cabin transport; 2 + 6 pax
- Ba.44: Prototype (MM.267); 2 x 155 hp Colombo S.63 6-cyl.
- Ba.44: Prod'n: 2 x 200 hp DH Gipsy Six; span 14.65 m

Ba.45 - (??)

Ba.46 - 1934 trimotor bomber-transport* prototype; x 1
- Ba.46: Low-wing cantilever monoplane; spatted u/c
- Ba.46: (As built) 3 x 320 hp P&W R-985 9-cyl.; span 30 m
-- All of Ba.46 I-SEBM's Wasp Juniors in NACA cowlings
- Ba.46: (As modified) 3 x 650 hp Alfa Romeo 125 RC.35s
-- Some sources say 3 x 500 hp I-F Asso 500 V12s
-- * Designed to carry 12 troops or 1,000 kg bombload

Ba.47-Ba.63 - (??)

Ba.64 - 1934 single-engined multi-role combat a/c, x 42
- Ba.64: Low-wing monoplane; retractable main u/c
-- Meant to perform recce, light bomber, and fighter roles
-- Designed by Antonio Parano and Giuseppe Panzeri
- Ba.64: 1st prototype MM249, 2-seater with fixed u/c
-- 1st prototype: 1 x 700 hp A-R Pegasus, 4-blade prop
- Ba.64: 2nd prototype MM250, 1-seater, semi-retr. u/c
-- 2nd prototype: 1 x 700 hp A-R Pegasus, 3-blade prop
- Ba.64: 1° serie 1936, combined prototype features*
-- * MM 249's open gun position with MM 250's u/c
- Ba.64: 1 x 650 hp Alfa Romeo 125 RC.35, span 12.10 m
- Ba.64: 4 x wing-mounted 7.7 mm Breda SAFAT mgs
- Ba.64 dc: (Doppio Comando) pilot-trainer conversion**
-- ** Total conv. unknown; incl. 2nd prototype (MM250)


Ba.65 - 1935 single-engined multi-role combat a/c; x 218
- Ba.65 : Low-wing monoplane; follow-on to Breda Ba.64
- Ba.65 : Built with range of radial engines; span 12.10 m
- Ba.65 K.14: Single-seater, 1 x 900 hp I-F F K.14 14-cyl.
-- Ba.65 K.14: 2 x 7.7 mm + 2 x 12.7 mm Breda-SAFATs
- Ba.65 A.80: Export 2-seater with Breda M dorsal turret*
-- * Turret mounted 7.7 mm Breda-SAFAT machine gun
- Ba.65 P.IX: Single trial conv. with Piaggion P.IX
- Ba.65 bis: RA Ba.65 A.80 variant; single- and 2-seater
-- RA repl. Ba.65 bis 18-cyl. Fiat A.80 with 14-cyl. K.14
-- Most (if not all) 2-seaters converted to single-seaters
- Ba.65 bis L: RA 2-seater with a Breda M dorsal turret
-- 2-seat variant had an open Breda L rear gun position
- Ba.65 (?): Caproni Vizzola bis divebomber conv.; x 40
--NB: No distinct desig. for export Ba.65s, these were:
- 1937: RoC; 1 x exp. P&W R-1830 conv., no order placed
-- Unclear if planned conversion or installation took place
- 1938: Chile; 20 x Ba.65 powered by Piaggio P.XI C.40
-- Chilean order for 17 x single-seaters, 3 x dual trainers
- 1938: Iraq; 23 x Ba.65 A.80 (Breda M turret) + 2 x DC
- 1939: Spain/Italian-manned Aviazione Legionairia; x 23
-- Spanish Bredas were a mix of Ba.65 K.14 & Ba.65 A.80
-- 11 x survived; to Aviación Nacional -> Ejército del Aire
- 1939-40: Soviet Union; 10 x Ba.65s; variant(s) unknown
- 1939: Portugal; 23 x Ba.65 A.80 (Breda M turret) vers.**
-- ** Some Aviação Militar dual-control a/c (eg: #551)

Ba.66 - (??) Possibly a planned Ba.65 development

Ba.67 - (Project) Dive bomber

Ba.68-Ba.74 - (??)

Ba.75 - 1939 single-engined recce/ground attack a/c; x 1
- Ba.75: Mid-wing* Ba.65 development;** fixed main u/c
- Ba.75: 1 x 900 hp Isotta-Fraschini K.14; span 15.60 m
-- * Allowing observer's glazings in the lower fuselage
-- ** Intended to re-use Ba.65 structural components
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16973.msg163812.html

Ba.76-Ba.78 - (??)

Ba.79 - 1936 single-engined monoplane cabin a/c; x 3
- Ba.79 : Strut-braced high wings; fixed u/c; 1 + 3 pax
- Ba.79 : 1 x 200 hp Alfa-Romeo 115; span 11.61 m
-- Ba.79 : Basic model; x 1 (c/n 78001, I-ABFU) [1]
-- Ba.79S: (Superiore) spats; x 3 (I-ABFT and I-ABFZ)

Ba.80-Ba.81 - (??)

Ba.82 - 1938 twin-engine medium bomber* prototype; x 1
-- * For 1937 Bombardiere Terrestre "Veloce" contest
- Ba.82: 4-seat; all-metal constr.; retractable main u/c
- Ba.82: 2 x 1,000 hp Fiat A.80 R.C.41 18-cyl; span 20.80 m
- Ba.82: MinAero consid'd unpromising; protoype delayed**
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9168.msg127032.html

Ba.83-Ba.87 - (??)
-- NB: Breda Ba.87 Zanzare (sic) is a 'what-if' concept

Ba.88 - 1936 Lince twin-engined multi-role* aircraft; x 149
-- * Intended as heavy fighter, recce, & ground attack a/c
- Ba.88: Prototype (MM.302) single-tail, 2 x 900 hp I-F K.14
-- 1937, mod. for 100 km closed circuit world speed record
- Ba.88 bis: (Project) 1938, 2 x 1,400 hp A-R 135 Tornado
-- Ba.88 bis for the 1938 concorso Caccia Combattimento
-- Also see: single-seat Ba.88 deriv. Breda Ba.94 (below)
- Ba.88 : Initial Lince production variant; 105 x built **
-- ** Ba.88 production: Breda x 81; IMAM Meridionali x 24
- Ba.88 : 2 x 1,000 hp Piaggio P.XI RC.40s; span 15.60 m
- Ba.88 M: (Modificata) 1943 Agusta mod. attack a/c; x 3
- Ba.88 M: 2 x 870 hp Fiat A.74 radials; 2 m+ longer span
-- Span exten. to reduce wing loading; dive brakes fitted
- Ba.88 bicomando: 2-seat, dual-control trainer vers.; x 8
-- Ba.88 bicomando featured a raised instructor's seat

Ba.89 - (Project?) 193? single-engined touring monoplane
- Ba.89: Low-wing tourer attributed to Cesare Pallavicino

Ba.90-Ba.91 - (??)
-- NB: Ba.90 is seen as a 'what-if' designation

Ba.92 - (Project) 1938 single-seat biplane aerobatic trainer
- Ba.92: Intended to replace the RA's Ba.25 & Ba.28 types
- Ba.92: 1 x 370 hp Piaggio P.VII Z 7-cylinder; span 9.60 m
- Ba.92: Proceeded as far as wind tunnel model testing
-- Rejected for engine; RA wanted I-F Beta or CNA D.VIII
-- NB: Breda would later submitted its Ba.205 biplane (qv)
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17594.msg167617.html

Ba.93 - (Project) 2-seat trainer

Ba.94 - (Project) Twin-engined reconnaissance a/c
- Ba.94: Single-seat derivative of the Breda Ba.88 bis
- Ba.94: 2 x 1,400 hp A-R 135 Tornado; span 15.60 m
-- Submit. 1st round 1938 concorso Caccia Combattimento

Ba.95-Ba.98 - (??)

Ba.99 - (Project) 4-5 seat twin-engined medium bomber
- Ba.99: To 1938 Programma Bombardieri Normali contest
- Ba.99: Nose & dorsal barbettes; 600-1,200 kg bombs
- Ba.99: 2 x 1,400 hp A-R 135 Tornado; span 19.80 m
- Ba.99 M: 2 x 1,600 hp Piaggio P.XXIIs; [2] span 19.80 m
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18166.msg173256.html#msg173256

Ba.100 - [Project] low-wing monoplane fighter, retractable u/c, 11.50m span
- Ba.100: 1 x 1,350hp Alfa-Romeo 135 R.C.32 Tornado 18-cylinder 2-row radial
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2559.msg78773.html#msg78773

Ba.101-Ba.200 - (??)

Ba.201 - 1941 single-seat divebomber prototypes; x 2
- Ba.201: All-metal constr.; split flaps as dive brakes
- Ba.201: Inverted gull wings; fwd cockpit; retr. u/c
-- (Project I) Rear-placed cockpit; bulge bomb-bays
-- 1 x 900 hp Isotta-Fraschini L.121 R.C.40; span (??)
-- (Project II) Fwd-placed cockpit; bulge bomb-bays
-- 1 x Isotta-Fraschini L.121 R.C.40; mock-up built
- Ba.201: 1 x 1,175 hp DB 601A IV12; span 13.00 m
- Ba.201: Prototype (MM.451) first flew in July 1941
-- RA considered 290 mph too slow without a gunner

Ba.202 - (Project) 1940 single-seat ground attack a/c
- Ba.202: Twin-boomed pusher with fixed spatted u/c
- Ba.202: 1 x 750 hp Isotta-Fraschini Delta IV-12
- Ba.202: 2 x 20mm cannon (lower nose) + bombload

Ba.203 - (??)

Ba.204 - (Project) Multi-purpose* light combat aircraft
-- * Single-seat fighter; 2-seat recce/ground attack
- Ba.204: Low-wing monoplane; diff. cockpit set-ups
- Ba.202: 1 x (??) hp I-F Delta IV-12; span (??) m
- Ba.204: Single-seat fighter; narrow cockpit canopy
- Ba.204: 2-seater; broader cockpit; staggered seats
-- Observer also manned the bomb-sight & rear gun
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/italian-fighter-projects.5420/#post-239852

Ba.205 - 1942 biplane aerobatic trainer, 1 x 280 hp IF Beta RC.10, 9.90m span
- Ba.205: As proposed, all-metal fuselage, more fwd-mounted cockpits
- Ba.205: As built, fabric/steel-tube fuselage, front cockpit covered
-- Ba.205: 2 prototypes (MM.472 & MM.473), elim. from comp. Jan 1943

Ba.206 - (Project) Single-engined fighter-trainer a/c
- Ba.206: Low-wing monoplane derived from Ba.204
- Ba.206: 1 x (??) hp I-F Delta IV-12; span (??) m
- Ba.206: Single-seater with a semi-enclosed cockpit
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/italian-fighter-projects.5420/#post-239852

Ba.207-Ba.209 - (??)

Ba.210 - (Project) Ba.201 divebomber development

Ba.211-Ba.277 - (??)
-- Ba.277 designation mentioned by Aero Fan No.16 1981/4

_________________________________________________


[1] The Ba.79 and first Ba.79S (c/n 78002, I-ABFT) both went to the Ministero Aeronautica in April 1936. The second Ba.79S (c/n 78003, I-ABFZ) was sold to Giuseppe Fresa De Angelis at Sesto S.Giovanni in August 1937 (according to Golden Years of Aviation's Italian registry).
-- http://www.airhistory.org.uk/gy/reg_I-2.html

[2] The Piaggio P.XXII was an uprated derivative of the better-known P.XII. The Alfa Romeo 135 Tornado was another 18-cylinder radial. It was intended to provide 2,000 hp on 100 octane fuel - which was never available, so 1,400-1,650 hp was the best results achieved.


_________________________________________________

Breda-Zappata BZ.3xx/BZ.4xx Series Designations
--

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3026.msg96463.html

BZ.301 - [Project] medium bomber deriv. from Cant Z.1018 Leone
- BZ.301: Accepted for production but none completed

BZ.302 - [Project] heavy fighter deriv. from Cant Z.1018 Leone

BZ.303 - [Project] night fighter deriv. from Cant Z.1018 bomber
- BZ.303: 2 x 1,450 hp Piaggio P.XV R.C.60 8 x 20 mm + 1 x 12.7 mm
-- BZ.303 prototype under const. 1943, scrapped after armistice

BZ.304 - [Project] 2-engined attack a/c deriv. from Cant Z.1018

BZ.305 - [Project] 4-engined transport deriv. from Cant Z.511

BZ.306 - [Project] 4-engined bomber deriv. from Cant Z.511

BZ.307 - (??) (Project)
- BZ.307 : 2 x 1,650 hp (??) engines; span 20.70 m

BZ.308 - 1948 4-engined airliner, 5 + 55 pax, 33.50m span
- BZ.308: 4 x 2,500 hp Bristol Centaurus radials, 1 prototype built
- BZ.308 bis: [Project] pressurized version of BZ.308
- BZ.408: [Project] twin float seaplane version of BZ.308
-- NB: Zappata evolved the BZ.308/BZ.408 from the Z.511/BZ.305
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10453.0.htm

BZ.408-BZ.400: [??]

BZ.401 - [Project] light recce-bomber seaplane deriv. from Z.1018

BZ.402-BZ.407: [??]

BZ.408: [Project] BZ.308 floatplane deriv., see BZ.308 (above)

Breda-Pittoni BP Designation

Breda-Pittoni BP.471 - 1950 twin-engined high-wing,tricycle u/c freighter/airliner
- BP.471: 2 + 18 pax, 2 x 1,200 hp P&W R-1830-92 radials, 23m span, 1 prototype
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12419.msg121782.html

_______________________________________________________

Great work my dear Apophenia,


A.5 as I know a twin boom light transport aircraft
Ba.18 light aircraft developed before Ba.19 (not sure)
Ba.23 light transport aircraft project (not sure)

Thanks Hesham. I've added notes to the Ba.18 and Ba.23. The A.5 as illustrated appears to be identical to the B.1 airliner conversion.

Thank you my dear Apophenia,


and for Breda Ba.207,may be mentioned in Aerofan magazine.

Hi,


Ba.20/65 machine gun
Ba.37/54 machine gun
Ba.30 machine gun
Ba.35 may be a float use for snow


http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/storiaTradizione/ufficioStorico/Documents/documenti/Direzione%20Costruzioni%20Aeronautiche.pdf

Hi Hesham. Those Breda weapons would not have received 'Ba.' prefixes.

For example, the mentioned Breda 20/65 was referred to as Cannone-Mitragliera da 20/65 modello 35 (Breda) or simply Breda Mod.35. The 'designation' refers to this automatic cannon's bore (20mm) and its barrel length (65, measured in calibres - ie: multiples of 20mm). So, no 'Ba.20/65' or 'Ba.35'

In the case of the Mitragliera Breda 37/54, this anti-aircraft gun would simply be referred to as the 37/54. Only when the 37/54 'tube' was placed on a gun mount would a Modello designation be applied. In this case, these were the twin-gun Modello 1934 and Mod. 1938 naval mounts, and single-gun Mod. 1939 naval mount and Mod. 1941 Army mount.

For the mitragliatrice Breda modello 30, I'm not aware of any designation other than the Regio Esercito's Mod.30.

My dear Apophenia,


but the word Modello may be means model,and I think it was not necessary to
but the suffix Ba,and look at that site,you will find anther Modello; 6,11,34 and 41.


http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armata_przeciwpancerna_B%C3%B6hler_4,7_cm

Hi Hesham. You're right, modello just means model. And, in some cases, Breda might certainly have referred to a 'modello 65' meaning what we know as the Ba.65.

My point was that the 'Ba.' prefix was applied by the Regia Aeronautica or Ministero dell'Aeronautica. The small arms and cannons in question here were used by the Regia Marina and the Regio Esercito ... which did not apply those 'Ba.' prefixes.

Instead these organizations applied capital-M 'Modello' numbers with, as mentioned, 'Mod.' or 'M.' followed by the last two digits of the year of issue. So, you will find lots of examples of 'Modello xx' listed out there because this style of nomenclature was applied to every issued form of Italian small arms or piece of ordnance.

OK my dear Apophenia,


but there is one possibility,the company avoid to use suffix Ba in non aircraft
designs.

Quite so ... and not just a possibility but a certainty. As Skybolt has noted before (and I repeating in post #2), the 'Ba.' prefixes were never assigned by Breda. That 'Ba.' was added on to Breda aircraft designation numbers by the Regia Aeronautica and Ministero dell'Aeronautica.

Hi,


in the site worldairforces,they spoke about Breda Ba.58,as a military aircraft,
but I can't define what was it ?.


http://www.worldairforces.com/countries/italy/itl.html

In the beginning of this there is mentioned that I have written that there were also of the two-seat Breda-Pensuti, powered with an V-8 engine, but after looking to pictures of these aeroplanes I think it was not, what is mentioned in that article, a V-8 but V-4.
Further concerning the A-1 trainer for which the Aviatik was used, is there anyone who can prove this with a picture?


Thanks Jan den Das

Hi Jan,


I searched for you about Breda-Pensuti on Internet,but nothing about version with V-8.


Also I thought wrong that,there is a Project called Breda 277,but it was unofficial
design.


http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/author/admin/page/22?cid=all&month=3&yr=2013&time=day

Hi Hesham


This article is about the Ba.27, but I dont understand what they mean with 277al.
Enclosed pictures of the V engines version of the twoseat Breda-Pensuti.
The engine looks like a halve HS-160hp????

Hi Jan,


I also don't understand well,what they meant,and great pictures about
Breda-Pensuti.

Now some one any proof concerning the Breda A.1 based on the Aviatik/SALM A.3 what Apophenia means in the beginning??????
Who has pictures etc., please show them


Jan

Breda A.13.


This type was renamed in A.14.


Jan

Jan den Das said:

Breda A.13.

This type was renamed in A.14.

Click to expand...

What is your source Jan.

l'Aeronautica 1925


Is this prove enough?

the picture at the beginning of the topic is a Breda SC.4

In 1918 Breda signed a licence agrement for Ca.600 (Ca.5).


In 1922 there was a design for an airliner, 16 passagers, span 28 m and length 15,17 and 4 Spa engines.
This was designed by Mario Castoldi and the type was the B.C or Breda-Castoldi also named Castoldi-Breda.
It it was never build.


The designation B.1 was used for the airliner conversion of the Ca.5, on the nose of this aeroplane was painted "Italia B.1". I think, because Breda did not used a prefix, stout for Breda 1.


I prewar articles I found that the Breda-Pensuti was mentioned as Breda-Pensuti 1 and 2.
On pictures its to see B2 and a number, its possible that this was used as constructionnumber?


The at the beginning mentioned CAB types were not build with a number and the SC5 mentioned, would be the SCA5. This one and the SC4 were both Breda designs and build (maybe not all) at the CAB factory.
In book "Aeroplani Caproni - Gianni Caproni and His Aircraft (1910-1983)(Museo Caproni), page 176; several Breda SC4 and SCA5 (1927-30)).
They look a lot on the Breda 9/10.
I think (THINK) that its possible that the SC4 and SCA5, were designed as Breda 11 and 12 ??
Who knows what SC and SCA means?
Could it be Scuola Caccia and Scuola Caccia Assalto?
Who knows and has more information/details/etc. concerning these types?


The Pensuti design and Tebaldi were sold to the Breda factory, that why it became Breda-Pensuti (not the prototype) and Breda-Tebaldi (not Zari, becasu they build the first prototype).


I found Breda M1. Who knows more about this design and what is the source???


Breda A.1: I think that there is never a SAML Aviatik 3 modified and mentioned Breda 1. Its possible that this is one of the historical stories without prove and/or did it ever happened. I tried several forums , without any result.
Who knows more and which sources were used?


Who has more information/history/etc. concerning the SAML Aviatik A.3, several of these type were used at the Breda Flying school, so I am interrested in more details/materials.


Jan

My dear Jan,


as I know from old encyclopedia,the SAML-3 was built after the WW1 in Breda as A.1.

which one?
send me a scan?
Jan

Sorry my dear Jan,


just right now is impossible,and I want days to search about it.

A.1 Strange becouse I found in a pre and post war list all the welknown aeoplanes/projects, started with A.2 (monoplane) all the multi engined biplanes bombers, but "NO" A.1, is there any body who can prove that this was build or that it was a project?
I think that some one started this story, without any prove!!!!


A.5 was a project for a 4-engined bomber (2 engines in tandem).


At the beginning of this topic there is mentioned the Breda M-1, 2-engined airliner.
From where comes this story?
Please all the details of this aeroplane?
This is one which I did not find in any pre and post war article/list?
I think it was the Caproni version!!

My conclusion after reading several pre-war articles and postwar.


To start there was an project, mentioned in Jane's 1924, the B-C (also mentioned C-B) Breda-Castoldi, 17 passengers airliner, biplane, 4 engines, could also be build as bomber.


Pensuti:
the single-seater would be the Breda-Pensuti (no numbers to find);
the two-seater the Breda-Pensuti B.2 (at least 3 build);
Tebaldi;
New design with slimmer fuselage based on the Tebaldi-Zari was namend B-T (Breda-Tebaldi)
Airliner based on the Capronibomber was named B-1 "Italia".


After these types Breda started with 2 or A.2


Jan

Hi,

these documents are from Breda historical Archives.

Alessandro

the second

3°

Excellent Alemilb,


many thanks for sharing us.

hallo,

some additional info about BZ projects.

Breda proposed 4 projects based upon Cz.1018:
BZ.301 high altitude bomber,
BZ.302 high altitude fighter,
BZ.303 night fighter,
BZ.304 anti tank.

Italian Government, Aviation Office, declared to be interested only in BZ.301 and BZ.303 (letter 23/03479 of 1942, December 15 th), asking Breda to develope them and asking also to design versions of BZ.303 as fighter, attack and torpedo and to study also the possibility of a dive bomber.
On 1943, February 2 nd, Aviation Office ordered two BZ.303 and on 1943, August 5 th one additional BZ.303 bis.
The manufacturing was stopped on 1943, September 8 th.

Breda (as it declared to Government in the '50s) also started the manufacturing of the prototype of BZ.305, which was stopped on 1943, September 8 th too.
There is no proof (e.g.documents) regarding an order by Aviation Office for this aircraft, and the manufacturing percentage when stopped is unknown.


Alessandro

Thank you Alessandro.

Hi,


here is an Info about BZ.307,it was twin engined project,maybe related to BZ.401 as
a recce seaplane aircraft.


http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/libri/PDF_Libri_By_AVIA/Cento_aeroplani_e_un_grande_cuore.pdf

Hi,


we also forget to add,Breda-Pittoni Model-1471;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20293.msg198439.html#msg198439

hesham said:

Great work my dear Apophenia,

A.5 as I know a twin boom light transport aircraft

Click to expand...

The Breda A.5 ?.