Payen Pa.350 CD

Hello all!

I'm looking for any documentation, drawing and pics about
Payen Pa.350 CD - project Coupe Deutsch Racer.

Many thanks for your help

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

Hi,

http://www.hubertcance.com/large-view/Plan+drawings+samples/90075-1-0-7066/Drawing/Paper.html

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

Crumbs !! That makes a GeeBee look easy to fly !!

OT-- I suppose it is one of the arcane WhatIfs of preWW2 French aircraft design: Had the Payenne and DeLanne designs reached production, how would they have fared against Blitzkreig, Stukas and MEs ??

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

For comparison two other drawings, from AirEnthusiast April 1997 and
from Bent Throttles N°40.
The Payen designs like the PA.100 and here the 350 were racers and reading
about Roland Payen I've always got the feeling, that he wasn't really interested
in military aircraft, he just regarded them as a way to finance his other designs.
Turning a racer into a fighter probably is more difficult, than turning it into a fast
bomber. So maybe the question rather is, how would such designs have fared against
the German ground forces compared to, say, Breguet Br.693 or Loire-Nieuport LN.411,
or perhaps against the Fairey Battle.

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

O! Great details & info! Many thanks, Jemiba.

It is unclear, mistery plane... he had with only one engine or duo? Why, used contra-rotating propellers and a large common gearbox (?) - like plane with sparred-engines. And yet, on the pic drawn 4 cyl. engine and 4 exhaust... and description used of the 6 cyl. engine (?).

Is there any idea what the motor could be used? I first thought about the two 6-cyl. engine Régnier P6, but it is not clear how they're placed inside.

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

The text in the first image Jemiba's post above specifies the engine as 350 CID (cubic inch displacement) or 6.0 liters in metric parlance, not six cylinders. "Cylindrée," literally the volume of the cylinders, is the French term for engine displacement.

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

Good work !
From "LES MOTEURS D’AVIATION RENAULT" by Gerard Hartmann, I got the following types, which used the
Pdi: Caudron C-363, C-282 à C-400 « Phalène », Potez 43,Farman 355, 380 and 400, but the Pei, as shown
in the picture of the SV-4 probably was very similar. The contra prop may have been used to avoid problems
with torque.

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

Yes good work slava_trudu !

There is always to learn about Payen's planes

Unicraft has models of Payen and among there the Pa.350 CD with drawings or photos from old (and dead...) weblinks :

http://www.unicraft.biz/on/pa350/pa350.htm

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

Hmmm, this machine flies or is a speed boat?

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

MC72 said:

Hmmm, this machine flies or is a speed boat?

Click to expand...

As you can read in several sources, the fact that the Payen designs really were aircraft
wasn't in question, only their direction of flight ! ;D
(Roland Payen was asked that by the SPAD designer André Herbemont, a sarcastic remark,
that is said to have led Émile Régnier to deny lending a suitable engine)

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

That cg image you posted was created by yours truly, a couple years back.. I did a whole series of them.
Perhaps not entirely accurate/to scale but captures the intent of the design nicely.. Here's a couple more.
(see attached)

Roland Payen's designs were always fascinating to me..

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

Great job John! I liked how you did. Now I am finishing building a model of this amazing aircraft (only decals and small parts). In the near future will show photos of the result.

I know it will probably be a stupid question, but what stopped the Pa.350 from falling over sideways?

The skids/bumpers under the fins, I think:

slava_trudu said:

Re: Request Payen Pa.350 CD pics and infos

O! Great details & info! Many thanks, Jemiba.

It is unclear, mistery plane... he had with only one engine or duo? Why, used contra-rotating propellers and a large common gearbox (?) - like plane with sparred-engines. And yet, on the pic drawn 4 cyl. engine and 4 exhaust... and description used of the 6 cyl. engine (?).

Is there any idea what the motor could be used? I first thought about the two 6-cyl. engine Régnier P6, but it is not clear how they're placed inside.

Click to expand...

Dear Slava Trudu,
Might be two small engines linked to a common drive shaft.
Justo Miranda's latest book "Enemy At The Gates, Panic Fighters of World War 2" includes 1/72 scale drawing of a Payen proposed fighter with two small radial engines driving a common shaft to a single tractor propeller.
It is difficult to believe that was a serious option for a combat airplane .... more likely sketches of an airframe prototype until he could get a single engine powerful enough for a single-engined fighter. We wonder if air force mechanics would go insane before bad guys invaded!
Hah!
Hah!

Pa. 350 fins do not look large enough to keep it straight on the runway.

riggerrob said:

Justo Miranda's latest book "Enemy At The Gates, Panic Fighters of World War 2" includes 1/72 scale drawing of a Payen proposed fighter with two small radial engines driving a common shaft to a single tractor propeller.
It is difficult to believe that was a serious option for a combat airplane ....

Click to expand...

It's why it was refused by the French Air Force

riggerrob said:

Pa. 350 fins do not look large enough to keep it straight on the runway.

Click to expand...

Jemiba said:

The contra prop may have been used to avoid problems with torque.

Click to expand...

riggerrob said:

more likely sketches of an airframe prototype until he could get a single engine powerful enough for a single-engined fighter. We wonder if air force mechanics would go insane before bad guys invaded! Hah! Hah!

Click to expand...

The problem of Payen was allways money.

He did not have the financial means of Macchi-Castoldi (3000 hp for the contra-prop MC-72 for The world speed record of 1934), Curtiss (P-36 prototype with contra-prop in 1938), Koolhoven (only the maiden flight for the FK-55 with 860 hp HS engine of 1938), Fairey (Battle prototype with contra prop in 1939), Bolkhovitinov (S-2 prototype with 2x960 hp in 1939) or even the French Farman/SNCAC (NC-110 bomber prototype in building with 2 x 2 contraprops HS engines in 1940) and Bugatti (100 P prototype with contra prop in building in 1940). Maybe only Dekker (Dekker-Fokker prototype of 1940 with contra prop, ready for the first fly, but too late…) was as "rich" as Payen...

Payen Did not have a lot of possible means to show his work. A light fighter was one of them and the chosen, bad, Caudron 714 light fighter, with only 500 hp, showed that, alas for France at this time, it was maybe an opportunity. Moreover The Pa.112 C1 was lighter and less long that the C.714, but yes, it was certainly more a try to get money from the French Government than a credible offer. Maybe if Payen could have gotten a ("cheap") reliable gear box for contra-props, things could have been different…


Edit : a delta canard Payen with the, external, futuristic look of the Dekker-Fokker contra prop engine would have been a fantastic Science Fiction movie airplane

Deltafan said:

... Koolhoven (only the maiden flight for the FK-55 with 860 hp HS engine of 1938), ...

Click to expand...

A minor OT nit to pick: The Koolhoven F.K.55 wasn't powered by a Hispano but the similar-in-size Lorraine Pétrel. Production F.K.55s were to have the slightly enlarged and higher-powered Lorraine Sterna 12R - both engines having been designed at Argenteuil by Henri Carol, AFAIK.

Some claim that the Société Lorraine (SNCM after 1937) was the main instigator for the Koolhoven fighter's unorthodox powerplant arrangement. As you say, the F.K.55 prototype's Pétrel 12H is generally quoted as producing 860 hp. I suspect that output to have been aspirational - actual take-off power generated was probably in the 680-to-720 hp range.

You are totally right. I must admit that I made the post of memory for the elements that I did not have in my list of the planes with counter-rotating propellers. There were other inaccuracies in my post, not only for Koolhoven (I have corrected some of them).
For the Koolhoven, I can add that it flew only 2 minutes and with fixed landing gear for its only flight (30.06.38). For its engine, my edition of the great book of fighters (Green-Swanborough) gives 860 hp, but Les moteurs à piston aéronautiques français 1900-1960, volume 1 (Bodemer-Laugier), gives 700 hp, at least on the Nieuport 121 (Wikipedia gives 670 hp on the Nieuport).
We can see that contra prop was not an easy field, for richer than Payen too…