Gloster designations

hi all

Goldfinch = G.23

from 'British Military Aircraft Serials' by Bruce Robertson

G.14 = Gannet, according to "1000 Aircraft Photos"

"Golden Years of Aviation" on the net list the following:

G.12A and G.18 for the Grebe
G.17 for the Gamecock I and
G.27 for the Gamecock as well

hi all

G.50 (SBAC G.A.6) -Transonic Thin Wing Javelin powered by two Olympus for specification F.153D (1954)

The Gloster designations are one of the most frustrating bits of research in this forum section. Different numbering systems that do not seem completely coherent/logical, many types without a known designation and a lot of gaps...

Concerning the SBAC designations, we now have G.A.1 to G.A.6 except for G.A.4... any ideas?

From Putnam's 'Gloster', pp. 53-4 :-

"in 1944 Glosters began building two new airframes, designated G.A.1, to meet the revise specification E.5/42 which had been re-issued as specification E.1/44.
Neither airframe was completed as attention turned to an improved variant, the Gloster G.A.2 - known unofficially as the 'Ace' - and then to progressively developed
versions of the basic airframe to be powered by the Rolls-Royce Nene and De Havilland Ghost engines. This work culminated, in November 1946, in the issue of
specification 24/46P to cover proposed manufacture of the G.A.4, but it was not destined to attain production status..."

and from page 369 :-

"Gloster E.1/44. Six prototypes, built or partially built by Glosters during 1944-49. The first two, on which construction was abandoned, bore the G.A.1 designation;
the next three were designated G.A.2 and the sixth, which was also abandoned before completion, was G.A.3.
G.A.4 was allocated to the proposed production of G.A.2 to specification 26/46P." (my bold)


cheers,
Robin.

Great, Robunos. Thanks!

Please remember that the Gloster 'G' designations (not the SBAC G.A) are totally spurious.
In 'Gloster Aircraft since 1917' by Derek N James, published by Putman, the author's note on page ix states that "A series of 'G' numbers with suffix letters purporting to be the system used by Glosters to designate aircraft types and sub-types has been widely published. This system is completely spurious having been evolved in 1948 by the company's publicity department by elaborating on an earlier reference system."
More was added to this by James Halley via Air Britain:
"Back in 1948, Norman Wiltshire was hospitalised in the Blue Mountains of Australia for a considerable period. To while away the time, he started to list all British aircraft in chronological order by constructors and then wrote to various companies to try to fill the gaps. For refererence purposes, he numbered each entry consecutively in his list. One that replied was Gloster's publicity department who thanked him for the list but admitted that they had not been able to compile one in-house so Norman's list was very useful to them. The list numbers had the prefix 'G' and it was with some surprise that Norman discovered references to G-number for Gloster aircraft. They tied up with his invented list so it looks as though Glosters had decided to adopt this as their standard reference. But subseuqently, they started to be quoted as though they had been allotted from Day One."

Very interesting, Ursius. Thanks for sharing.

It would seem that all the "non-G." designations starting in "SS.", "AS.", "TC.", "FS." or "TSR." probably corresponded to Gloster's original numbering system.

By trying to order all of Gloster's types chronologically, we get a pretty close idea of what Norman Wiltshire's complete listing must have been like. This is far from perfect, so bear with me!

EDIT: List removed and replaced further down by a more accurate version.

My updated/corrected list of all Gloster (chronological order is approximate):

[list removed, to be replaced by updated version]

I recognize that this list is a little tentative but it iincludes most built Gloster types until we can find something more accurate.[/list]

Hi all

New version of the Gloster's P-Series (from Putnam and Midland).

Also fron Putnam: SS.34 - a projected 'monoplane Gladiator' with a retractable landing gear

Regards

E.1/44 (E.5/42) Ace ............................................ 1I+ o.M.
F.5/33 ..................................................... M2.[ii]
F.18/40 ..................................................... 2 M.[iii]
G.1 Mars .......................................... 1II– M.[iv]
G.16 T.C.33 Goshawk .................. 4tII– B.Tp.[v]
G.18 T.C.33 Goshawk .................. 4tII– B.Tp.[vi]
G.22 Goral ......................................... 1II– Wa.[vii]
G.37 S.S.37 Gladiator ................... 1II– M.[viii]
G.38 (F.5/34) ..................................................... 1I+ M.[ix]
G.39 (F.9/37) Reaper ..................................... 2I+ c.M.
G.40 (E.28/39) Squirt > Pioneer .................... 1I+ o.X.[xi]
G.41 (F.9/40) Meteor ...................................... 2I+ o.M.[xii]
G.42 ..................................................... 1I+ o.M.[xiii]
G.43 Meteor Trainer ......................... 2I+ o.M2.Tn.[xiv]
G.44 Meteor ...................................... 2I+ o.M.
G.47 Meteor ...................................... 2I+ n.o.M.[xv]
P.109 ..................................................... 4I+ c.o.B.[xvi]
A.S.31 ...................................... 2II–W F.G.Wa.[xvii]
F.S.36 (T.S.R.38) ............ 1II– Br.T.[xviii]
S.S.18 Gauntlet .................... 1II– M.[xix]
S.S.19 Gauntlet .................... 1II– M.[xx]
S.S.36 ...................................... 1II– Br.T.
Gambet .................................... 1II– M.[xxi]
Gamecock .............................. 1II– M.
Gnatsnapper ........................... 1II– M.[xxii]
Goldfinch ................................. 1II– M.[xxiii]
Goldfish ................................... 1II– M.[xxiv]
Gorcock ................................... 1II– M.[xxv]
Goring ....................................... 1IIW R.[xxvi]
Grebe ........................................ 1II– M.[xxvii]
Grouse ..................................... 1II– M.[xxviii]
Guan ......................................... 1II– M.[xxix]
Sea Gladiator .......................... 1II– M.[xxx]
Nightjar .................................... 1II– M.[xxxi]
Sparrowhawk ......................... 1II– M.[xxxii]

Thank all of You, friends, for all Your informations above

AM said:

Hi all

New version of the Gloster's P-Series (from Putnam and Midland).

Also fron Putnam: SS.34 - a projected 'monoplane Gladiator' with a retractable landing gear

Regards

Click to expand...

For P series,there was a more than 400 aircraft and projects,but it's hard to say.

By the way,


the "G" series didn't use until after WW2,and here is some addition and revising;


AS.31 became G.31
TC.33 became G.33
SS.37 became G.37
SS.18 & SS.19 became G.32


G.28 was Gnatsnapper I ,with Mercury engine
G.28a was Gnatsnapper II ,with Panther engine
G.28b was Gnatsnapper III ,with Kestrel engine

hesham said:

AS.31 became G.31

Click to expand...

Source?

hesham said:

TC.33 became G.33

Click to expand...

Yes.

hesham said:

SS.37 became G.37

Click to expand...

Yes.

hesham said:

SS.18 & SS.19 became G.32

Click to expand...

Source?

hesham said:

G.28 was Gnatsnapper I ,with Mercury engine
G.28a was Gnatsnapper II ,with Panther engine
G.28b was Gnatsnapper III ,with Kestrel engine

Click to expand...

Source? My understanding is that G.28 applied to the Gamecock II, not the Gnatsnapper.

Stargazer,


the source is the Air Pictorial magazine of 1955,I hope many members mention their
sources also,I saw many topics opened,and the sources never mention at all.

Thanks hesham, we don't always remember where we found our information or pictures, but when it comes to designations, it is always best to provide at least a scan (even if we don't know the source) because it proves the validity of the information.

Found the reference to the G.28/Gamecock II association I'd made. It's in a Finnish PDF file. The Gamecock II was a version for Finland, and after the two prototypes, the type was locally built as the Kukko (15 aircraft built). Of course we'd need to have the author's source for the designation, but there remains a possibility that the "28" slot could have been allocated to the Gamecock II in the original (and mostly lost) designation series — or that Finland simply decided to designate as "G.28" their own successor to the G.27 prototypes they purchased...

• reference to G.1 as the Mars I: Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam)
• reference to G.11 as the Grouse II: Air Pictorial 1956-10
  
• references to G.12/A as the Grebe: A Fleeting Peace, British Register
• references to G.14/A as the Gannet: 1000 Aircraft Photos, All-Aero.com, British Register
• reference to G.16/A as the Gorcock:
• reference to G.17 as the Gamecock I: British Register, Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam)
• reference to G.18 as the modified Grebe: British Register
  
• reference to G.21 as the Goodwood project: Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam)
• reference to G.22 as the Goral: The British bomber since 1914 (UK: Putnam / US: Naval Institute Press)
• reference to G.23 as the Goldfinch: Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam)
• reference to G.25 as the Goring: The British bomber since 1914 (UK: Putnam / US: Naval Institute Press)
• reference to G.27 as the Gamecock (II, etc.): British Register
  
• reference to G.28/a/b as the Gnatsnapper: Air Pictorial 1955
• conflictual reference to G.28 as the Gamecock II for Finland: Finnish PDF file
• references to G.30 as the Goldfinch: Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam), Mirovaya Aviatsiya No. 141
  
• reference to G.31 as the former T.S.31 Survey aircraft: Air Pictorial 1955
• reference to G.32 as the former SS.18 and SS.19 prototypes: Air Pictorial 1955
• references to G.33 as the unbuilt Gloster V racer: Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam), Air Pictorial 1955
• references to G.33 as the former T.C.33 Goshawk troop-carrier/bomber: Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam), Air Pictorial 1955, Aviation Archive
• reference to G.35 as the De Havilland D.H.72 Canberra bomber: Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam)
• reference to G.37 as theformer SS.37 Gladiator: Aircraft in Profile 5: Gloster Gladiator (Profile Publications)
• references to G.38 as the F.5/34 single-seat monoplane prototypes: Fighters of World War II (Exeter), Air Pictorial 1967, Graham Pallett...
• references to G.39 as the "Gunner/Reaper" day/night fighter: British Secret Projects: Fighters and Bombers Since 1935-1950 (Midland), Wikipedia
• conflictual reference to G.39 as another Grebe: Gloster Aircraft Since 1917 (Putnam)
• references to G.40 as the E.28/39 Pioneer jet prototype: The Gloster Meteor (Macdonald), British Experimental Turbojet Aircraft (Crowood), AW&ST 1973
  
• references to G.41 as the Meteor (except T.7 and GAF Meteor): The Gloster Meteor (Macdonald), Flying Dec.51, Jane's 1955...
• references to G.42 as the E.1/44 "Ace" jet prototype (to G.A.2): Jane's 1950, British Secret Projects: Fighters and Bombers Since 1935-1950 (Midland)...
• references to G.43 as the Meteor T.7 trainer variant: The Gloster Meteor (Macdonald), British civil aircraft, 1919-59 - Volume 2 (Putnam), Jane's 1952...
• references to G.44 as the GAF Meteor, also known as the Reaper: Air Pictorial Aug. 1971, Flight Fantastic: the Illustrated History of Aerobatics (Newbury Park)...
• reference to G.47 as the Javelin (to G.A.5): Jane's 1955, Jane's 1964
  
• conflictual reference to G.47 as NF.11 and TT.20 variants of the Meteor: The Gloster Meteor (Macdonald), 1000 Aircraft Photos: NF.11 and TT.20
  
• references to G.50 as the "Thin-Wing" Javelin (to G.A.6): Weapons Procurement in Phase Considerations (Glen Segell), Flight 4 Feb 1965, Air Pictorial

NOTES:

• The allocation of both G.23 and G.30 to the Goldfinch in the system may correspond to initial prototype to 16/25 vs. modified prototype for Navy to F.9/26.
• The conflictual allocation of G.33 has been well described in reference documents and probably resulted from a mistake when the G. system was created.
• The conflictual allocation of G.39 may simply indicate that Grebe was a company given name for the Gunner/Reaper.
• The conflictual allocation of G.47 is a great source of confusion as both interpretations appear in seemingly reliable sources!

A few additional remarks:

• S.S.1 was a Gloster Works designation and refered to what became the General Aircraft ST.3 Monospar.
• S.S.8 was the designation first given in Flight magazine in 1929 for what is known everywhere else (Flight included) as the S.S.19.
• Apparently, S.S.35 applied only to the Gnatsnapper III, not the earlier versions.
• Allocation of G.32 to the former SS.18 and SS.19 prototypes doesn't quite make it clear if the production version, the Gauntlet, was also part of that or not.
• Some totally FAKE Gloster aircraft can be found on the web under the designations "G.45 Sea Meteor FSN.6", "SS.39 Gannet", "SS.40 Skipper I" and "SS.42 Skipper II". They are part of a the Wesworld uchronia (a fantasy by an author who imagines an alternate timeline) and must NOT be taken into consideration).

Great Work Stargazer.

A certain British vac-form model kit manufacturer spells "Gloster" as "Gloucester" on his Meteor kit. Of course he has a lot of misspellings and incorrect designations in his line but did Gloster ever use that spelling?

famvburg said:

A certain British vac-form model kit manufacturer spells "Gloster" as "Gloucester" on his Meteor kit. Of course he has a lot of misspellings and incorrect designations in his line but did Gloster ever use that spelling?

Click to expand...

Of course, but looooooooong before the time of the Meteor! (Actually it was the Gloucestershire Aircraft Co., Ltd.)

See: http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Gloster_Aircraft_Co


The explanation: for commercial purposes (mainly export, presumably) they simplified the spelling to match the English pronunciation of certain cities: Worcester (pronounced as "Worster", Gloucester as "Gloster", Leicester as "Lester"; same goes with the "shires" or counties "Worstersher", "Glostersher", "Lestersher" — so much for Americans pronouncing "Glaoo-cester-shy-er"!!!).

SAM Modeller's Datafile #8 about the Meteor gives a very precise breakdown of all Meteor versions. I'm enclosing the data (which I reorganized to fit into only one picture). G.44 and other test versions are not included.

Quite clearly here, G.41 is for all the day-fighter and recce versions, G.43 for the Meteor T.7 trainer, and G.47 for the NF.11 to NF.14 night-fighter variants (the U. and TT. variants being merely RAF modification jobs). After initially considering that G.47 Javelin was correct and that G.47 Meteor NF was a mistake, and in the face of the the amount of research that apparently went into this, I'm therefore strongly tempted to revise my judgment, given the lower number of sources for the former (only Jane's, so far) and larger for the latter.

If G.47 was indeed the Meteor NF, and since G.50 was the uncompleted "Super Javelin" (or "Thin-Wing Javelin"), that leaves the unidentified "G.48" for the Javelin F(AW) (fighter/all-weather) variants and "G.49" for the Javelin T.3 trainer, which would make a lot of sense, though it's pure speculation at this point.

This any help? From Gloster Javelin by Richard A Franks - Verdun Publishing 2006

Barrington Bond said:

This any help? From Gloster Javelin by Richard A Franks - Verdun Publishing 2006

Click to expand...

Not to solve the above riddle, but undoubtedly a great addition to this thread! Thanks a lot.

Perhaps in your book you could find a mention of either G.47, G.48 or G.49 as being associated to the Javelin? Just a thought.

a missing link from french Aviation magazine

Gloster G.20 = Gloster III

But please refer back to post #9. The 'G' series is completely unofficial and was applied retrospectively to aircraft pre-1948. It does not include unbuilt projects, is ambiguous and generally confusing, so don't expect to be able to create a list which is either complete or consistent.
I have found no trace of a systematic numbering system of any sort pre-war, although I have only sought material relating to unbuilt projects. Tender documents have a Specification No: but these do not appear on the drawings, which just have sequential numbers.
For example Specification No: 238 references drawings F.11168 and F.11169