Morane Saulnier designations

No, no prizes for guessing which company. I can hear the deep sigh of many of you "Oh no, not again ... !" . But no mercy, here is the list of all Morane-Saulnier designations I could find. At first I started with the MS.181, because this was the oldest type/the lowest designation number which still was used after WW II . But then I thought it to be a little selfish, so the list begins with Type A in the year 1912 now.
From the year 1926 onwards, until the development of the MS.1000, only 3-digit numbers were used, the first to digits designating the type, the last digit the version, so , if the last digit was “0”, it mostly was the prototype of a new type. It’s a pity, that this simple rule wasn’t used strictly throughout the wide range of a/c. For example, the MS.229 wasn’t a derivative of the 220 family, but a version of the 230 ! Two versions of the MS.225 got the numbers 275 and 278 and the one of the harshest example is the MS.530, which was a derivative of the MS.330 and we even have one designation used twice, the MS. 800 ! It seems, that around 1955 4-digit numbers were introduced for types with military applications only, as the pre-project to the MS.1500 still had the number MS.775 .. but the rare examples of the 900 series were intended for military use, too, although they were in fact derivatives of the civil MS.900 light transport. Since the merger with Sud-Aviation to form SOCATA in 1966, the old designations were dropped and replaced by better sounding names, e.g. the MS.897 Rallye Minerva later turned out as he Minerva 220GT.
If the above said is principally correct, there may well have been a lot of projects projects in the gaps between ! New land for unafraid explorers !
I would be very pleased to get any additions, although especially post-war types are most welcome ! And don’t worry, one day the Morane series will be finished and I’ll start with the next one !

;D


Type A 1912 single seater, shoulder wing small series
Type C 1913 single seater, shoulder wing small series
Type F 1913 single seater, shoulder wing small series
Type G 1913 twin seat, shoulder wing small series
Type H 1914 single seater, development of G small series
Type I development of N small series
Type K floatplane racer, monoplane
Type L 1913 twin seater, parasol series production
Type LA 1914 (?) development of L small series
Type M 1912 armoured monoplane
Type N 1914 single seater, shoulder wing small series
Type O 1914 single seater, development of G prototype
Type P 1916 twin seater, parasol series production
Type S 1915 4-seat, twin engined biplane prototype
Type T 1914 3-seat, twin engined biplane small series
Type TRK 1917 3-seat, twin engined triplane prototype
Type V development of N small series
Type BB 1915 twin seat biplane series production
Type BH 1916 development of BB series production
Type U single seater, shoulder wing prototype
Type V single seater, shoulder wing prototype
MoS.23 1916 Type AC, single seater, shoulder wing small series
Type AE twin seater, parasol wing prototype
MoS.27 1917 Type AI, single seater, parasol small series
MoS.28 1916 Type AF, single seater, biplane small series
Type AFH development of MoS.28, amphibian prototype
MoS.29 1918 development of MoS.27 small series
MoS.30 1916 twin seat development of MoS.27 small series
MoS.31 1918 Type AN, twin seat, biplane small series
Type ANL development of AN prototype
Type ANR development of AN prototype
Type ANS 1919 development of AN prototype
MS. 35 1915 Type AR twin seater, parasol wing series production
MS. 36 1917 Type AU, single seater, parasol small series
Type AV 1922 4-place parasol prototype
MS. 42 twin seat, biplane prototype
MS. 43 1922 development of MS. 42 series production
MS. 50 1924 single seater, parasol wing small series
MS. 51 1925 development of MS. 50 small series
MS. 53 1925 development of MS. 50 small series
MS. 56 development of MS. 50 small series
MS. 121 1926 single seater, parasol wing prototypes
MS. 129 1925 twin seat parasol small series
MS. 130 1927 development of MS. 129 series production
MS. 131 1927 development of MS. 130 prototype
MS. 132 1927 development of MS. 130 prototype
MS. 133 1927 development of MS. 130 prototype
MS. 134 1927 development of MS. 130 prototype
MS. 136 1927 development of MS. 130 prototype
MS. 137 development of MS. 138 small series
MS. 138 1927 development of MS. 35 series production
MS. 139 development of MS. 138 small series
MS. 140 twin seat, biplane prototype
MS. 141 development of MS. 140 prototype
MS. 147 1928 twin seat parasol small series
MS. 148 1928 development of MS. 147 prototype
MS. 149 1929 development of MS. 147 small series
MS. 152 1928 twin seat parasol small series
MS. 180 1928 single seater, parasol wing, sports/training series production
MS. 181 1929 development of MS.180 series production
MS. 185 1929 development of MS.180 series production
MS. 191 development of MS. 138 small series
MS. 200 modified MS.130 prototype
MS. 221 1928 development of MS.121 prototype
MS. 222 1928 development of MS.121 prototype
MS. 223 1930 development of MS.221 prototype
MS. 224 1930 development of MS.221 prototype
MS. 225 1932 parasol fighter series production
MS. 226 1933 carrier version of the MS.225 series production
MS. 227 1933 MS.225 as testbed for HS 12Xcrs engine prototype
MS. 229 1931 version of the MS.230 for swiss AF prototypes
MS. 230 parasol wing, training a/c series production
MS. 231 1931 modified MS.230 small series
MS. 232 1940 modified MS.230 prototype
MS. 233 modified MS.230 small series
MS. 234 modified MS.230 prototypes
MS. 235 1930 modified MS.230 prototype
MS. 236 1932 modified MS.230 for belgian AF small series
MS. 237 1934 modified MS.230 small series

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

MS. 250 parasol training a/c prototype
MS. 260 1932 high-wing touring a/c prototype
MS. 251 version of the MS.250 prototype
MS. 275 1934 modified MS.225 prototype
MS. 278 modified MS.225 prototype
MS. 300 1930 parasol wing, training a/c prototype
MS. 301 version of the MS.300 prototype
MS. 302 version of the MS.300 prototype
MS. 315 1932 parasol wing, training a/c, derived from MS. 300 series production
MS. 316 version of the MS.315 series production
MS. 317 (1960) re-engined MS.315 small series
MS. 325 1933 single sat low wing fighter prototype
MS. 330 1929 twin seat parasol prototype
MS. 331 1929 development of 330 prototype
MS. 332 1929 development of 330 prototype
MS. 340 1933 parasol wing, touring a/c small series
MS. 341 1941 development of 340 small series
MS. 342 development of 340 small series
MS. 343 development of 340 small series
MS. 345 development of 340 small series
MS. 350 bi-plane, acrobatic a/c prototype
MS. 405 single seat fighter small series
MS. 406 development of 405 series production
MS. 408 single seat development of 430 project only
MS. 412 development of 406, swiss version ( D-3801), series production
MS. 430 1937 low-wing, twin seat training a/c prototype
MS. 433 development of 430 project only
MS. 438 1938 development of 430 prototype
MS. 450 single seat fighter, development of MS. 406 prototype
MS. 470 1945 training a/c, based on MS.406 prototype
MS. 471 probably series version with Renault 6Q engine project only
MS. 472 1946 development of 470 with GR 14M engine series production
MS. 473 development of 470 with HS.12X engine project only
MS. 474 1947 development of 472 , navalized series production
MS. 475 1947 development of 470 , with HS.12Y engine series production
MS. 476 development of 472 , enlarged wing and empennage prototype
MS. 477 1951 development of 472 with SNECMA 12S engine prototype
MS. 478 development of 472 with Isotta Fraschini Delta engine, project only
MS. 479 1952 development of 472 with SNECMA 14X engine prototype
MS. 500 1944 licence built Fieseler Fi-156 Storch series production
MS. 501 modification of MS.500 with Renault engine prototype
MS. 502 1947 modification of MS.500 with Salmson engine prototype
MS. 504 1947 modification of MS.500 with Jacobs engine prototype
MS. 505 1947 modification of MS.500 with Jacobs engine series production
MS. 506 modifications of MS.500/2/5 with Lycoming engine small number
MS. 530 1938 development of 330 prototype
MS. 560 1945 single seat acrobatic a/c prototype
MS. 561 re-engined 560 prototype
MS. 562 re-engined 560 prototype
MS. 563 1949 development of 560 prototype
MS. 570 1945 2/3-seat development of 560 prototype
MS. 571 1947 3-seat development of 570 prototype
MS. 572 1947 4-seat development of 571 prototype
MS. 600 1947 2-seater sports/touring a/c prototype
MS. 601 1947 development of MS.600 prototype
MS. 602 1948 development of MS.600 prototype
MS. 603 1948 development of MS.600 with tricycle landing gear prototype
MS. 660 1946 2-seater light a/c (today ULM) prototype
MS. 661 1946 development of MS.660 prototype
MS. 662 modification of MS.661, mentioned by P.Gaillard prototype
MS. 700 1949 twin engined 4-seat a/c prototype
MS. 701 development of MS.700 prototype
MS. 703 1951 development of MS.700, 6-seater prototype
MS. 704 development of MS.700, 6-seater prototype
MS. 710 1947 jet fighter , contender to Dassault Ouragan project only
MS. 711 1948 development of MS.710 with swept wing project only
MS. 730 1949 single engined trainung a/c prototype
MS. 731 1949 development of MS.730 prototype
MS. 732 1951 development of MS.730 prototype
MS. 733 1951 development of MS.730 series production
MS. 735 1953 development of MS.730 series production
MS. 752 twin engined ground attack jet a/c, based on MS.733 project only
MS. 755 1953 2-seater jet trainer, contender to Fouga Magister prototype
MS. 760 1954 development of MS.755 as 4-seat communications a/c series production
MS. 761 1960 development of MS.760 series production
MS. 775 pre-project to MS.1500 project only
MS. 785 1957 4-engined executive jet, pre-project to MS.880 project only

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

MS. 800 ground attack jet a/c, contender to SE. Baroudeur project only
MS. 810 1955 twin engined COIN
MS. 861 1960 twin engined executive jet, project only
MS. 880 1958 (?) 4-engined executive jet project only
MS. 880 1959 single engined 2/3-seat sports/touring a/c prototype
MS. 881 development of MS.880 series production
MS. 885 1961 development of MS.880 series production
MS. 890 development of MS.880, 4-seat series production
MS. 892 development of MS.890 series production
MS. 893 development of MS.890 series production
MS. 894 development of MS.890 series production
MS. 900 1960 (?) twin engined light transport project only
MS. 901 development of MS.900 project only
MS. 902 1961 COIN, development of MS.900 project only
MS. 915 1961 COIN, development of MS.900 project only
MS.1000 delta, heart shaped wing jet interceptor project only
MS.1001 1955 VTOL, tailsitter, several variations (Statodyne) project only
MS.1500 1954 COIN prototypes
MS.1510 development of 1500 with retractable landing gear project only
MS.1520 twin engined 1500/1510 development, project only
MS.1530 twin engined 1500/1510 development, project only
MS.1550 enlarged 1500 with RR Dart project only
MS.1600 COIN/light transport,development of 900/901 project only

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Dear Jemiba,
if you excuse me to help you:
MS.1(C.1),MS.2(G),MS.3(L),MS.4(LA),MS.5(N),MS.6(I),MS.7(BB),MS.8(BH),
MS.9(TRK),MS.10(S),MS.11(R1/A),MS.12(H),MS.13(M),MS.14(GB),MS.15
(GB),MS.16(E.2 two seat trainer),MS.17(G),MS.18(G) and MS.19(GA).
in the next days,I will speak about some aircraft to this company but
the problem is I have a very small informations:
B-1911,D-1912,E-1913,J,AR,AC,AFH,WR,AI,1917 experimental,1918 experimental,
BI,PP,G-1915,MS.26,MS.39,MS.320,MS.382,MS.407,MS-409,MS.410,MS-411,
MS.420,MS.440,MS.507,MS.509,MS.540,MS.631,MS.705,MS.706,MS.707,MS.708,
MS.750,MS.882,MS.883,MS.884,MS.891,MS.942,MS.945,MS.971 and MS.972.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Dear Jemiba,
some Morane-Saulnier aircraft:
type PP: single seat racer aircraft of 1911.
type J :single seat fighter (no detail)
type BI :military monoplane for russian navy.
,, AC: single seat shoulder-wing monoplane fighter.
,, WR:developed from G ,it had an unusual glasshouse built on
to the sides of fuselage forward of the wing,built for russian.
,, G-1915 :single seat fighter with a fixed 8-mm (0.315) Hotchkiss
machine-gun fitted with deflector gear.
MS.320 :two seat aerobatic monoplane.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

and,

MS.39 :single seat advance trainer aircraft.
MS.942 and MS.945 :twin MS.477 fuselage as attack torpedo bomber aircraft.
MS.971 and MS.972 :twin MS.477 fuselage as trainer aircraft.
MS.407 and MS.409 :single seat fighters based on MS.406.
1917 experimental :single seat parasol monoplane fighter based on type AI
with all-wood monocoque fuselage and an integral fin and
tailplane.
1918 experimental :single seat parasol monoplane fighterbased on type AI
with 170 hp Le Rhone totary.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Just a question :
Do you found all the twin MS.477 types on the The-Great-Planes site ? ???
Perhaps with this drawing ?
Then sorry, very sorry , All those twin types were just a joke between me
and Tophe ! We never intended to confuse somebody.
There were some other jokes, e.g. a six-engined Breguet bomber project,
or an eightuple Arado trainer, but not even as What if's, but as pure jokes !

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Dear Jemiba,

good jokes,I believed it.
the Morane-Saulnier MS.122 and MS.320 were mentioned in the
magazine AVIONS volume 79.
I heard that MS.631 was a light aircraft,with no detail
is that wright ?.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Beg your pardon again for those jokes, if you follow all posts in that forum, you'll read
that the MS.954 would have been armed with photon torpedoes, like starship Enterprise .

I have nothin about the 631, just a gap between the 600 series (600 - 603) and the
660/661.
Ms.705 to 708 were derivatives of the 700 series ?

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Hi,

The Morane-Saulnier type-M was armoured monoplane of 1912
and type-K was a racer hyro monoplane.


additions included in the list now

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Hi,

Morane-Saulnier TB was two seat armoured military biplane.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Hi,

I am sorry for Type-J,it was from a small encyclopedia but
it was wrong;
The Type-J was two seat touring monoplane of 1912.
The Type Canton was three seat monoplane of 1912.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Hi,

The Type Rebikoff was a three seat monoplane of 1911.
Project 12-54 was tailsitter experimental fighter powered by two Orpheus turbojets.
Project 4-55 was tailsitter experimental fighter powered by one Orpheus turbojet.
Statodyne 02 was tailsitter experimental project powered by two Atar 101E turbojet.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

The tailsitter projects probably fell into the number of projects,
we already mentioned here :http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,32.msg3488.html#msg3488
I'll send you the 4 or 5 pages, very interesting and quite funny to imagine the reactions of
the airforce staff ;D

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Hi,

For MS.660 it was single seat strut braced high wing monoplane with fixed
tricycle undercarriage and 40 hp Train 4E-01 engine.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Hi,

A more details to MS.152,it was two seat parasol wing fighter-recce monoplane
powered by one 230 hp Salmson 9Ab engine.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Hi,

The MS.20 was AI,single seat fighter with 150 hp Gnome engine.

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Ah, good ,that you are keeping this thread alive ! I've just today read again the article
"From Morane Saulnier á EADS" by Gerard Hartmann. He only mentiones a tandem seat
two jet trainer project as a direct derivative of the MS.730/733 series. If the MS.752,
the single seat attack aircraft was based on it, too, isn't said explicitly.
If someone find drawings of these projects, I would begin negotiationes about the price !

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

Do you mean the 755 Fleuret?

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

I had another look into Cunys "Les Avions Francais .." and there, the sinle seater is described
as a direct derivative of the two seat trainer. Sorry, had read this first.
The Fleuret was the definitiv version and launched as a contender to the Fouga Magister.
How much commonality with the earlier design had remained, isn't even said by Cuny .

Re: designations of a french aviation company ...

hesham said:

Hi,

The MS.20 was AI,single seat fighter with 150 hp Gnome engine.

Click to expand...

The MoS.20 was type LH and not AI,the LH was single seat fighter
developed from type LA.


The MoS.11 or type R1/A was developed from type A as trainer
aircraft.

Hi,



MoS.24 was a Type Y,it was three-seat bomber derivative of Type S,
powered by two 150 hp Hispano-Suiza 8 Aa engines.

MoS.26 was a developed version of Type P (MoS.21).

MS.37 was Type AT,a two-seat fighter powered by one Le Rhone
9 Jb engine,one prototype of 1917.

MS.38 was Type AU,a single seat acrobatic aircraft.

Type Q was a prototype of 1916,may be observation or fighter
aircraft.

Type X was a project of heavy bomber of 1918,two-seat aircraft
powered by one 350 hp Panhard 12 J engine driven two
propellers,looks like the Type TRK.

Hi,


MS.40 was two-seat cabin aircraft powered by one 180 hp Hispano-
Suiza 8 Ab engine.


MS.41 was Type AX; http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5807.msg117613.html#msg117613


MS.44 was trainer project,powered by one 220 hp Lorraine 8 Fb engine.


MS.45 was EP2 trainer aircraft,powered by one 80 hp Rhone 9C engine.


MS.46 was single seat fighter project,powered by one 250 hp Salmson
9 Zc engine.

MS.47 was three seat light transport monoplane project,powered by
one 120 hp Salmson 9 Ac engine.

MS.48 was ET1 single seat monoplane project,powered by one 180 hp
Hispano-Suiza 8 Ab engine.


MS.49 was single seat fighter project,powered by one 450 hp Lorraine
12 Eb engine.

We also forget;


the Morane Saulnier MS-1010 was developed from MS-1000 for ADAVand the MS-1020 was two seat trainer version of MS-1000.



http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4329.msg34231.html#msg34231

In the new Trait d'Union magazine (#260, Nov-Dec2011) are 10 pages of Morane-Saulnier designations with data (year, use, engine, power, quantity, comments). I will send copies to my friend Hesham and to other interested ones if any, or/and I will complete the list here (for the lines with Quantity: zero)...

Please count me in, Tophe!!

Yes, me to, Tophe.

Would come perfectly in time for Christmas !
Are non-built variants/types included ?

Yes Jens, lots of them have comment "projet" (project) and even more have Quantity: zero, but I fear some of them are "modified types", not separately built but not "secret projects".

I am also very interested, thanks in advance!

All is scanned, ready to send, but I need the mail address of each interested person. If you say "send me please" and your profile does not include an E-mail address, please send me your E-mail address as Personnal Message. (Thanks Maverick and Retrofit - I have the 4 others)

Tophe,

Please include me in the list as well if you would be so kind.

Loren

In the Trait d'Union (#260) list, 100 models have a "quantity built: zero" and 49 codes remain of unknown content.
Of the 100, 5 have been denied above as built (according to other sources) and 24 have been already mentioned by SP members posting in this topic, the remaining is 71 projects. I may mention them with dates, in the coming days.

Thank you so much Tophe for this invaluable piece of aviation history!

Thanks for e-mail Thope

Here are the 71 missing types of projects, per batch:
MS-52 (1925) Lorraine 8 Bd engine
MS-123 (1926) Hispano 8 Ab engine
MS-124 (1926) Salmson 9 Zb engine
MS-125 (1926) Salmson 9 Ab engine
MS-126 (1926) Salmson 9 Ac engine
MS-127 (1926) Salmson 9 Ab engine
MS-128 (1926) Clerget 9 B engine
MS-150 (1929) Clerget 9 B engine
MS-151 (1929) Clerget 9 B engine, seaplane
MS-153 (1930) derivative of 152
MS-154 (1930) derivative of 152
MS-160 (1929) derivative of 149
The MS-156 of 1942 was a Fieseler Fi-156 Storch, this MS-156 code replacing probably a true Morane-Saulnier project (cancelled) of 1929.

Next batch:
MS-161 (1929) Lorraine 5 Pa engine
MS-162 (1929) Clerget 9 B engine
MS-167 (1929) Salmson 9 Ac engine
MS-170 (1929) Salmson 7 Ac engine
MS-171 (1929) Lorraine 5 Pa engine
MS-172 (1929) Hispano 6 Pa engine
MS-182 (1929) Salmson 7 Ac engine
MS-190 (1928) Rhône 9c engine
MS-228 (1934) C1 project (single-seat fighter), naval version
MS-240 (1930) Ambulance single-engined aircraft
MS-252 (1933) Utility aircraft
MS-270 (1930) 4-engined Bn5 (5-seater night bomber)

Next batch: (still from the Trait d'Union magazine, #260)
MS-275 C1S (no date) single-seat fighter, 600hp
MS-276 (no date) single-seat fighter
MS-277 (no date) Hispano 12 X engine
MS-344 (1933) Training
MS-351 (1936) Aerobatics
MS-360 (1934) Tourism, 3 seat
MS-370 (1934) two Gnôme-Rhône 9 Kbrs
MS-380 (1934) two seat fighter
MS-390 (1934) two seat fighter, two Hispano 12Ybrs engines, 650hp
MS-400 (1934) single-seat fighter
MS-406L (1939) MS-406 for Lithuania
MS-420 (1931) TWIN-BOOM pusher fighter, single-seat fighter, Hispano 12Mc engine of 500hp
EDIT: The MS-420 is presented and discussed at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9707.0.html

Still from Trait d’Union #260, the next batch:
MS-432 (1938) derivative of 430
MS-478A (1950) derivative of 478
MS-478B (1950) derivative of 478
MS-520 (1931) biplane single-seat fighter like the Fiat CR42
MS-540 (1941) single-seat fighter with Hispano 12Z engine
[different from another MS-540 (1944) with YS2 engine, built in Switzerland as D-3802]
[this way, 2 different MS-560 have been built, a fighter (1947 - 1,430hp) built in Switzerland as D-3803, and an aerobatics plane (1945 - 75hp)]
MS-580 (1944) Transport, 12 seats (or passengers), 2 engines
MS-640 (1939) single-seat fighter with Hispano 12Z engine
MS-708 (1951) Liaison use, 6 seats, twin engined 2x300hp
MS-756 Fleuret II (no date) single-engine General Electric CJ160 jet of 1,290kgp (the MS-755 Fleuret having 2 Turbomeca Marboré II, 400kgp each).
Paris Jet IV (1982) project of the company JacobJets, 4 seats, two Garrett TFE 76 jets of 600 kgp
MS-785 Versailles (1955) business plane with 2 Turbomeca Gabizo jets of 1,100kgp, 10 seats
MS-785 Nice (1957) business plane with 4 Turbomeca Gabizo jets of 1,100kgp, 10 seats

Still from Trait d’Union #260, next batch:
MS-787 (no date) business plane 8 seats, twin-engined
MS-810 (1954) 3 seats for colonies, twin-engined
MS-900 (1960) Civilian cargo, two Turbomeca Astazou engines
MS-901 (1960) derivative of the 900
MS-902 (1961) military derivative of the 901
MS-915 (1961) "Coopération" use (maybe foreign utility), derivative of the 902 with Bastan engines
MS-1000 (1953) single-seat fighter, 1 ATAR 101 G-1 jet of 4,200 kgp or another engine
MS-1020 (1955) two-seat trainer version of the 1000
MS-1001 (1955) twin-engine version of the 1000, for instance with two Rolls Royce Orpheus
MS-1510 Epervier II (no date) derivative of MS-1500 Epervier with Turbomeca Bastan IV of 950hp
MS-1520 (no date) derivative of MS-1500, twin-engined, two seats
MS-1530 (no date) derivative of MS-1500, two Turbomeca Astazou XIV of 790hp, two seats
MS-1550 Super 1500 (no date) derivative of MS-1500, with one Rolls-Royce Dart 6 engine, two seats
MS-1600 (1955) Combat 2 seats, two Armstrong-Siddeley Mamba of 1,000hp