Avatar, asymmetric warfare, and US contribution to WW2

AeroFranz

AeroFranz

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Just came back from seeing Avatar, and was pleasantly surprised by the vehicle design throughout the movie.
There is a whole series of VTOL vehicles featured extensively. I suspect actual aerospace engineers were used as consultants, as the whole vehicles, down to the details, seemed to make sense. No 'Stealth' B.S. like Mach 7 turbo-scramjet-crap.
Other than that, I recommend the movie in general. I wasn't expecting much and it was much better than expected.
 
yes Cameron dit it again
Avatar is a "you must see it in 3D" movie
i look it yesterday and i gona look it again and again B)

here some detail information on Aircraft and Spacecraft in Movie
WARINIG SPOLIER
http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/dragon_gunship
http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/scorpion_gunship
http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/isv_venture_star

Picture shows the Scorpion Gunschip
 

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I haven't seen the film, only stills and the trailer. The descriptions on the Pandorapedia links look very real-world - if anything, slightly less than you'd expect for aircraft a century or so into the future.

There's a quote from Cameron along the lines of "The more fantastic the scenario, the more realistic you need to make it look."
 
> No 'Stealth' B.S. like Mach 7 turbo-scramjet-crap.

Hmmm. And what would be wrong with that in the timeline of this movie, namely 2154 AD?

It's no more wild that that huge shuttle-like orbiter hovering and travelling at low speed in
an earthlike g-field with the slower rotor powered attack craft on that mission at the end
of the movie.

However, the movie was AWESOME, and I was blown away by it.

I also saw the 3-D version and it was AMAZING. I found myself reaching out during the
movie to touch things seemingly floating by me only less than a foot away!

WOW!!
 
Yep Avatar was a really fun movie, looked fantastic, though I didn’t think the 3D was half as great as the trailer for Toy Stories 1&2 in 3D.

I would advise against thinking TOO much about the technology, science, politics, sociology and biology in this kind of movie because it’s all well total BS. Even if ‘Pandora’ world has half of Earth’s gravity and air twice as dense those puny rotor discs on all those VTOLS could never as nimbly lift anything as heavy as shown. And let’s not mention the ‘vortex’ fields… Strong enough to make mountains float and disrupt short range sensors but not strong enough to have the slightest blip on your human to avatar uplink channel… Ahh the suspension of disbelief!

What I did like was the strong ‘universe’ feel to Avatar with Aliens: colonial marines, dropships, loaders, etc. Just needed a cameo by Bill Paxton in some kind of marine dropship to scream “game over man” when the Blue Ewoks start to reap their revenge…
 
After perusing the local Wal-Mart yesterday, I've come to the conclusion that Avatar is a surprisingly "toyletic" movie.

I feel that's all I have to contribute to the discussion, but I also feel that this is quite a bit.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
I would advise against thinking TOO much about the technology, science, politics, sociology and biology in this kind of movie because it’s all well total BS.
Click to expand...

As much as people have been gushing over this movie as being The Experience, I thought it was... OK. Not "$300 million" OK, just... OK

Even if ‘Pandora’ world has half of Earth’s gravity and air twice as dense those puny rotor discs on all those VTOLS could never as nimbly lift anything as heavy as shown.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think the smaller vehicles were quite feasible. But the "Dragon," quad tilt-duct, would have to have been made out of tissue paper to be able to fly.

The "spiritualism" grated, as did the nonsense about the natives winning against an interstellar military force. Hell, the Injuns could'nt beat the Cavalry when all the Cav had were six shooters and Winchesters. No amount of ghost dancing is going to protect your skinny blue ass from 22nd century machinegun fire.

And how many fricken' times have we seen the old plotline, "White guy on a mission from the evil white-controlled government/corporation gets sent into the natives ranks, goes native, turns on his old people, wins the day, wins the girl, and wins control over the grateful horde of natives?"
 
Orionblamblam said:
The "spiritualism" grated, as did the nonsense about the natives winning against an interstellar military force. Hell, the Injuns could'nt beat the Cavalry when all the Cav had were six shooters and Winchesters. No amount of ghost dancing is going to protect your skinny blue ass from 22nd century machinegun fire.
Click to expand...

But it wasn’t spiritualism their trees were actually a global network of computers and they had a convenient modem inside their pony tails. This is where the various tribes of hippies and pre-technology/enlightenment societies have been doing it wrong: no organic computer network.

Of course shooting arrows through high hardness glass and the feebleness of the corporate marines’ weaponry – really a WW2 level of effectiveness with smoky rockets, no fire control systems, no slaved remote mounts, etc – kind of helped. If the marines had a couple of 2009 bog standard AH-64 Apaches they would have been far more lethal than the crap being fielded in the 2150s.

Orionblamblam said:
And how many fricken' times have we seen the old plotline, "White guy on a mission from the evil white-controlled government/corporation gets sent into the natives ranks, goes native, turns on his old people, wins the day, wins the girl, and wins control over the grateful horde of natives?"
Click to expand...

Yeah the ultimate insult to the indigenous. “You’re not good enough to fight *us* off you need one of *us* to go native to have a chance.” Go tell the Maori, Afghans, Ethiopians, etc… It also undermines just how hard it was for the various European societies to conquer the colonised countries in the real world.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
But it wasn’t spiritualism their trees were actually a global network of computers and they had a convenient modem inside their pony tails.
Click to expand...

Causing all the evolutionary biologists to go "WTF?" What possible train of evolutionary leaps would allow *everything* alive on that planet to be able to plag into each other? How likely is it that everything would have the same USB port, and not some things with, say, coax cables?

Another thing that grated was the clearly separate evolution of the major lifeforms. The natives were astonishingly human in all respects except for the ponyplug. But the other critters tended to have:

1} Six limbs rather than four
2} Four eyes rather than two
3} Two ponyplugs rather than one
4} No hair or fur
5} Rather than nostrils on their heads, they were on their necks or chests

These don't line up very well. The natives were nearly as alien to their ecosystem as the humans were, except for the plugs and the ability to breathe their air.

Plus: the idea that the humans were booted offworld at the end? Bah. They simply packed up and moved a thousand miles away and started all over again. This time manufacturing defenses and weapons sufficient to preclude a repeat. And of course, you don't get to see what happens five minutes after Sully's "rebirth:" the humans take off and nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Causing all the evolutionary biologists to go "WTF?"
Click to expand...

Perhaps it will be easier if we list the items in the Avatar universe/story that are plausible?

Professor of Sociology went to Stanford University? Yeah I’ll buy that.

Well I’m fresh out? Anyone else? No… Thought so…
 
Abraham Gubler said:
Perhaps it will be easier if we list the items in the Avatar universe/story that are plausible?
Click to expand...

IMO most of the military and mechanical technology seemed plausible... but seemingly a bit antiquated for the year 2158. The starship didn't make a lick of sense though.
 
on Scotts remarks

from Artistic point of view:
Cameron makes a clever use of so called "Uncanny Valley" syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
he makes the natives more human so the Spectators are identified with them
and there culture as real "Noble savage"
so RDA & Colonel Quadrich looks real bad bad bad son of a...

Best use of "Uncanny Valley" made Ridley Scott with Monster of all Monster: ALIEN
after 30 years. this beast still creepy ! (thanks to H.R. Giger)

from Biological point of View
that the Na'vi look diverent as rest of Pandora life has good REAL example
HUMANS !
let face it, we look not like rest (Wat remain) Animals of Earth
we are more or less bald, our Nose hole are covert in aerodynamic cover
our second pair of hand are mutated into feet and we walk with them !

no wounder that most animals freak out if they see humans,
of curse that humans have cameras, guns, spears, nets in there hands
can play also a littel role...

on Spaceship "Interstellar vehicle Venture Star"
they based on concept by Charles Pellegrino and Jim Powell called Valkyrie Antimatter Starship
the Idea the engine is in front and pulling the ship, not push it!
Advantages:
are the ship can be lighter and Engine block shields against cosmic ray
Disadvantages:
the engine can not work on optimum because they angled outward a few degrees off the ship’s longitudinal axis so their exhaust plumes bypass the ship’s structure.
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3aj.html#valkyrie


by the way, nice "avatar", Scott ;)
 
Michel Van said:
from Biological point of View
.......let face it, we look not like rest (Wat remain) Animals of Earth
Click to expand...

Not that I want to turn this in to a discussion about exo-biology, but I take issue with that statement. Considering how different we could have been, we're actually more or less the same as most of those creatures with whom we share the planet: roughly left-right symmetrical, four limbs, head with all the sensory organs and a "food in" opening at one end, "garbage out" opening at the other end.......At least as compared to the vast majority of other mammals, birds and reptiles, we share the same body plan (although there's considerably more diversity if you start looking at mollusks or insects). This actually makes sense, since we're from the same evolutionary mold.

Of course, from that point of view, you'd expect the Na'vi to feature roughly the same body plan as at least some other indigenous creatures. Provided the Na'vi are indigenous, of course (haven't seen Avatar myself yet).

I can heartily recommend the book "Evolving the Alien: The Science of Extraterrestrial Life" by Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart, if you're interested in what a "real" alien (as in "really, really alien", not the "human-with-a-botched-nose-job" aliens of Tinseltown) might look like.

Regards & all, and Merry Christmas

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 
is nice book, here more info
Evolving the Alien: The Science of Extraterrestrial Life
by Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart
ISBN-10: 0091879272
ISBN-13: 978-0091879273

must read book on Exo Biology is this:
Life in Darwin's Universe
by Gene Bylinsky
ISBN-10: 0385170491
ISBN-13: 978-0385170499

Bylinsky theory about Evolution of alien life is simple:
If the law of physic is same all over the Universe,
then Life must evolve under Charles Darwin theory
 
Michel Van said:
Bylinsky theory about Evolution of alien life is simple:
If the law of physic is same all over the Universe,
then Life must evolve under Charles Darwin theory
Click to expand...

Agreed. But the theory (hypothesis?) that alien life would evolve according to the same rules that life here on Earth does, doesn't mean they'll end up looking like us ;)

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 
Kudos to Cameron for a realisticish sci-fantasy movie that had some cool points. I think the 3-D wasn't necessarily a compelling element of the film as it stood alone fine in 2-D. That said no one in Hollywood is gonna make a movie to satisfy speculative aircraft enthusiasts (i.e. this forum) since 90% of the ticket buying public wouldn't care anyway. The plotline may have been Dances with Wolves (ya think?) but it was a fun movie. Besides, what Cameron movies didn't have sophomoric plots, butchered science, and a black guy getting killed near the end? I can think of only one. Hahaha.

Although if your a Fox News kinda person I could totally see why Avatar would irk. It kinda was in your face with mocking of GOP talking points ;D
 
Until someone in Hollywood decides it's worth paying attention to realism in aircraft CGI, we'll have to be satisfied with Avatar. As prolific said, I am sure we all would have liked to see even more attention to science, but I am also pretty sure the average SPF member is NOT the average moviegoer. We are not going to make a micron of a dent in the earnings of this movie.

Cameron could have easily gone with the mind-boggling stupidity and lack of realism of Stealth, just to name one, but instead there was an honest attempt at depicting something that overall looks real enough, even though 99% of the spectators won't ever know the difference. Either Cameron is actually interested in vehicle design or he was professional enough to devote resources to making the vehicles realistic. Either way, the end result is a helluva lot better than what i am used to.

I am hoping Peter jackson's upcoming movie on the Dambusters will raise the bar even higher.
 
Either Cameron is actually interested in vehicle design or he was professional enough to devote resources to making the vehicles realistic. Either way, the end result is a helluva lot better than what i am used to.
Click to expand...

Very true. Actually Cameron is a big geek for tech so that's why he tries to make stuff believableish...which I laud him for. I actually had the good fortune to meet this chap among other Lightstorm luminaries after the Stereographic 3D VFX house I worked for was asked to put in a bid for conversion of his legacy material to be re-released theatrically. In fact this turned out to be a ruse to absorb the collective knowledge of my old employers so he may circumvent the need to utilize their expertise. Master stroke indeed. The stuff we did for him was really cool - but unnecessary for a bespoke production.
 
AeroFranz said:
Cameron could have easily gone with the mind-boggling stupidity and lack of realism of Stealth, just to name one,.
Click to expand...

Northrop Grumman actually designed the two aerial vehicles in "Stealth". Sure, it was probably just a couple engineers going "hey let's make something cool" but NG did do the work.
 
Yeah, i had read something to that effect. My beef is that the designs were heavily skewed towards the cool and less towards the real. I don't blame the NG guys, they have to deliver what the director asks for. The Sukhois in the movie were pretty good.
 
sferrin said:
Northrop Grumman actually designed the two aerial vehicles in "Stealth". Sure, it was probably just a couple engineers going "hey let's make something cool" but NG did do the work.
Click to expand...

Nope, the aircraft design is from Oliver Scholl
http://www.oliverscholl.com/portfolio/Projects/Pages/Stealth.html
the Northrop Grumman guys build a mock-up for Movie
 
Michel Van said:
sferrin said:
Northrop Grumman actually designed the two aerial vehicles in "Stealth". Sure, it was probably just a couple engineers going "hey let's make something cool" but NG did do the work.
Click to expand...

Nope, the aircraft design is from Oliver Scholl
http://www.oliverscholl.com/portfolio/Projects/Pages/Stealth.html
the Northrop Grumman guys build a mock-up for Movie
Click to expand...


http://www.cgw.com/Publications/CGW/2005/Volume-28-Issue-9-September-2005-/High-Flying-FX.aspx


"To help Cohen sell the idea for the film to Sony, Digital Domain created a 40-second sample shot. Engineers from Northrop Grumman helped design a plane for the test, then worked on aircraft for the movie."

"“The engineers helped us flesh out concepts like where to put the weapons, and then production designer Michael Riva gave them a sexy Hollywood look."

For the second time. ::)

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4060.0/highlight,northrop%20grumman.html
 
prolific1 said:
The plotline may have been Dances with Wolves (ya think?) ...
Click to expand...

South Park nailed it with "Dances With Smurfs" a month or so ago.

Although if your a Fox News kinda person I could totally see why Avatar would irk.
Click to expand...

One need not be a "Fox News kinda person." Just not a "White Liberal Guilt" kinda person. My point: sci-fi has beat to death the trope of the "evil Western anti-environment corporation vs the noble savage," as well as the "Galactic Empire as allegory for Nazi Germany" trope. How about we try something different? How about "Imperial Japan vs. Manchurian China?" How about "Stalin's Holodomor," or the "Soviet extermination of the Kulaks?" How about "Islamic Jihad against the infidels" (although "Chronicles of Riddick" kinda sorta did that)?" How about the "Mongols tear down Islamic society leaving a cultural ruin?" How about "Romans vs Carthage?" How about "Hutus vs Tutsis?" How about "Israelites wipe out the Canaanites?" How about "Khmer Rouge vs. anyone with a brain?" How about "Aztecs vs. their neighbors?"

History is full to overflowing with examples of evil on a massive scale that far exceed the tired and overused "evil capitalist corporation" meme. The histories of Africa and Asia alone could easily provide fodder for the next centuries worth of hideously expensive sci-fi blockbusters.
 
sferrin said:
"To help Cohen sell the idea for the film to Sony, Digital Domain created a 40-second sample shot. Engineers from Northrop Grumman helped design a plane for the test, then worked on aircraft for the movie."

"“The engineers helped us flesh out concepts like where to put the weapons, and then production designer Michael Riva gave them a sexy Hollywood look."
Click to expand...

That's as may be... but "helped design" is *really* vague. For all we know, the NG guys might've simply said, "how about saying the UCAV has scramjets, and, oh, yeah, mounting the missiles above the wings won't work, put them in bays on the underside." Boom. Done.

Some years ago (more than ten... damn, I'm old), I saw a "technical advisor" do some work for "Mission to Mars." From what I saw, he didn't do *much,* and most of what he did was pretty much ignored. Still, the claim can be made by the moviemakers that they had help from so-and-so.
 
History is full to overflowing with examples of evil on a massive scale that far exceed the tired and overused "evil capitalist corporation" meme. The histories of Africa and Asia alone could easily provide fodder for the next centuries worth of hideously expensive sci-fi blockbusters.
Click to expand...

Break out your laptop and start writing. A friend of mine I worked with at Sony Pictures Animation - when I was a wee lad penciling action adventure cartoons for the Saturday morning crowd - once told me "If you don't like what you see [or work on] write your own story." Wise words indeed. That's what I'm aiming for. That said I too won't get lost in the need for pervasive and realistic technobabble as a good story should never rely on that as much as lean on it lightly with one foot.
 
You know Mr. Blamblam, you'd make one of the most credible technical advisers for Sci Fi films and the like. It is a racket full of wannabe knowitalls so you'd have to fight to get recognized. Certainly worth the effort though.
 
prolific1 said:
Break out your laptop and start writing.
Click to expand...

Actually, I have. Problem is, I suck at it.

And I don't know about the rest of y'all, but as an American, it's my God/Odin/Zeus/Evolution given right to bitch about certain things... politicians and the sad state of Hollywood being at the top of the list.
 
prolific1 said:
You know Mr. Blamblam, you'd make one of the most credible technical advisers for Sci Fi films and the like.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention that. I've served in just that capacity. However, I'm not sure that the movie will ever be finished.

:'(

So if anyone has an extra $10 million or so, give it to me, and I'll make sure that the moviemaker gets that $5 million and finishes the movie. And you'll be up to your eyeballs in aircraft, launch vehicles, spaceplanes, and interplanetary spacecraft that at least make technical sense.
 
Orionblamblam said:
sferrin said:
"To help Cohen sell the idea for the film to Sony, Digital Domain created a 40-second sample shot. Engineers from Northrop Grumman helped design a plane for the test, then worked on aircraft for the movie."

"“The engineers helped us flesh out concepts like where to put the weapons, and then production designer Michael Riva gave them a sexy Hollywood look."
Click to expand...

That's as may be... but "helped design" is *really* vague. For all we know, the NG guys might've simply said, "how about saying the UCAV has scramjets, and, oh, yeah, mounting the missiles above the wings won't work, put them in bays on the underside." Boom. Done.

Some years ago (more than ten... damn, I'm old), I saw a "technical advisor" do some work for "Mission to Mars." From what I saw, he didn't do *much,* and most of what he did was pretty much ignored. Still, the claim can be made by the moviemakers that they had help from so-and-so.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree. At times even the stuff that comes out of design firms themselves appears to have been done by marketing rather than engineering. ;D
 
sferrin your right about "Stealth", i was wrong


i work parttime as technical advisers for Sci Fi Authors & Comic artist in Europe ::)
and had also my trouble with "Hollywood" like problems

for a German Pulpserie
i design a Manned Mars Mission, Terraform Mars and Moonbase with SSTO Shuttle !
the trouble was i had only 500 years for Terraform (include how look mars after TF)
because Series play 500 year in future and Hero has go to Mars then.
and they had allready a SSTO Shuttle for flight to low orbit
I had to boost that dam thing to moon also ! (for there fly to Mars)

after solving the problem in record time of 4 weeks !
i send the Expose and Data files to editor and got my money
and Wat happend ?

a Famous German Horror Author who wright the first story for that
trow my Expose and Data files away and make Wat he wanted
the Editor, other Authors and me wend ballistic :mad:
another problem was the Coverpainter made a SSTO Space Shuttle
as Mars-Earth Interplanetary Space Ship :eek:
Editor: "aah Michel can you fix that, Please ?"
lucky i look in time "Lifeforce" with the ESA Churchill,
i relabel the solarcell with Ionengine and put hardware of SSTO lunar shuttle in it.
problem fix...
 
i work parttime as technical advisers for Sci Fi Authors & Comic artist in Europe Roll Eyes
and had also my trouble with "Hollywood" like problems

for a German Pulpserie
i design a Manned Mars Mission, Terraform Mars and Moonbase with SSTO Shuttle !
the trouble was i had only 500 years for Terraform (include how look mars after TF)
because Series play 500 year in future and Hero has go to Mars then.
and they had allready a SSTO Shuttle for flight to low orbit
I had to boost that dam thing to moon also ! (for there fly to Mars)

after solving the problem in record time of 4 weeks !
i send the Expose and Data files to editor and got my money
and Wat happend ?

a Famous German Horror Author who wright the first story for that
trow my Expose and Data files away and make Wat he wanted
the Editor, other Authors and me wend ballistic Angry
another problem was the Coverpainter made a SSTO Space Shuttle
as Mars-Earth Interplanetary Space Ship Shocked
Editor: "aah Michel can you fix that, Please ?"
lucky i look in time "Lifeforce" with the ESA Churchill,
i relabel the solarcell with Ionengine and put hardware of SSTO lunar shuttle in it.
problem fix...
Click to expand...

Nice! Gotta love working for hacks and having to fix issues they could have avoided if they...well...weren't hacks.
 
prolific1 said:
Actually, I have. Problem is, I suck at it.
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting on that guide to designing realistic Sci Fi spacecraft book you were making. I'd buy a copy.
Click to expand...

I got about 160 or so pages into that (mostly spent on propulsion systems) before I got distracted by some passing shiny object.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Actually, I think the smaller vehicles were quite feasible. But the "Dragon," quad tilt-duct, would have to have been made out of tissue paper to be able to fly.
Click to expand...

Hello!! What was the reason our evil capitalist were on Pandora in the first place?

UNOBTAINIUM!

That metal that aerospace has been after for over two hundred years (at the time of the movie). Of course Dragons can fly. :D

I was impressed with the attention to detail though. Like taking the inlet covers of the aircraft before starting engines and actually using foot pedals to correct yaw (although that is rapidly becoming an artifact in rotorcraft design). The cockpit design was so 21st Century though.

In case anyone is interested the Mattel Toy Company is offering a model of the attack helicopter from the movie for about $27 US.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Funny you should mention that. I've served in just that capacity. However, I'm not sure that the movie will ever be finished.

:'(

So if anyone has an extra $10 million or so, give it to me, and I'll make sure that the moviemaker gets that $5 million and finishes the movie. And you'll be up to your eyeballs in aircraft, launch vehicles, spaceplanes, and interplanetary spacecraft that at least make technical sense.
Click to expand...

might that movie be by chance "man conquers space"?

servus

markus
 
I did enjoy "Avatar", probably go back for a second look, but will sit nearer the front for the full field-of-view 3d effect.

I always judge CGI aircraft in films by the wing dihedral, they never get it right. qv the Ju-88s in "Enemy at the Gates". Also, why do all rotary wing aircraft in films, and on the telly, sound like Iroquois? Even the Dauphin.

Evolution? Have a look at Stephen J. Gould's "Wonderful Life".

GM
 
geeshockbloke said:
Also, why do all rotary wing aircraft in films, and on the telly, sound like Iroquois? Even the Dauphin.

GM
Click to expand...

because the average movie goer expects a certain sound to certain actions ...

which leads to squealing tires when rounding a corner on a sand road .. or engine sounds in space durnig a spaceship flyby ..

yes - the dauphin has a distinctive sound .. and i always was rather partial to the scream of a aluette III at full rage ..
 
agricola64 said:
Orionblamblam said:
Funny you should mention that. I've served in just that capacity. However, I'm not sure that the movie will ever be finished.

:'(

So if anyone has an extra $10 million or so, give it to me, and I'll make sure that the moviemaker gets that $5 million and finishes the movie. And you'll be up to your eyeballs in aircraft, launch vehicles, spaceplanes, and interplanetary spacecraft that at least make technical sense.
Click to expand...

might that movie be by chance "man conquers space"?
Click to expand...

Might be...
 
agricola64 said:
because the average movie goer expects a certain sound to certain actions ...

which leads to squealing tires when rounding a corner on a sand road .. or engine sounds in space durnig a spaceship flyby ..
Click to expand...

Or every firearm sounding like a piece of field artillery, rather than just a loud "pop" or "crack." Every sword rings. Every aircraft in any sort of dive sounds like a Stuka.

Oh, and my favorite: you see an explosion (airplane, bomb, volcano, whatever) that's miles away. And you hear it instantly. Gaaahhhhrrr.
 

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