What is going on with the Italian Secret Projects Book?

Thank you for your message!

I do bear excellent news. Ian Allan has green-lighted my Italian secret projects book proposal. But I won't be the only one at the helm on this one as this board's very own Skybolt will be sharing authoring duties with me. He was a natural choice with his top notch knowledge of Italian aircraft.

At this time, more than 50 of the most interesting Italian x-planes will be included in the text, spanning WW1 to a bit past WW2. Both military and civilian aircraft will be discussed.

Turn-in date for the book manuscript is January 2011 and the book may hit the shelves in the winter of 2011, possibly early 2012.

So, stay tuned!

Regards,

Ed

Circumspect said:

Mr Pelzig,

Needless to say sir, if ever such a book as your: "Italian Secret Projects" could actually materialize, you would be Johnathan Thompson's worthy 'successor' (at least here in the 'states') and he could be justly proud of you, and so should we! (I believe this renowned automotive author is recently deceased? and it's a pity I just could not opportune to see him in person, when I was in California many years ago.)

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Italian Secret Projects

That is indeed EXCELLENT news, thanks (or rather grazie mille) for filling a gap in the secret projects series. ;D
Please keep us posted with news of the progress. It will be hard to wait that long, but I am sure the wait will be well worth it

Italian Secret Projects

Great news. I'll be tuned waiting to order my copy

Italian Secret Projects

Certainly I will buy a copy of the book about Italian projects, I have been waiting for such a book for years!

Guido

Italian Secret Projects

To Messrs. "Pelzig" and "Skybolt"

You lads are the only two on the whole planet who could ensure that such a book would, in fact, exist: so please repose yourselves in good health for our sake! Needless to say, I am prompted to begin notifying every soul who could have (or, should have!) some interest in it, namely special: bookstore owners, IPMS officers and model-builders, magazine editors, museum curators and researchers, aero engineers and pilots with Italian family backgrounds, enthusiast websites et al, here in the States.

In a few month's time, I will remark extensively on two contemporaneous WWII documents:

- NACA-TM-1010 (report: Mar '42/Washington D.C.): S. Campini "Analytical Theory of the Campini Propulsion System" (A wartime National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics translation in 69 pp.)

- "Caproni-Campini Aircraft and Allied Developments in Italy" as reported by R.A.F. Squadron leader F.E. Pickles, from a visit through Rome, Italy in June 1944. G-2 Division, SHAEF (SECRET-declassified) 84 pp. (complete photocopy courtesy of Giorgio Apostolo)

The first report (sporting enough aerothermodynamic equations and graphs to have been my 4th-year propulsion textbook) is a sales pitch by Mr Campini on the viability and sufficiency of his method. The last report (likewise containing much formulae, graphs, tabulations, cross-sectional illustrations, and photos, etc.) describes jet-propulsion progress much beyond the original N.1 aircraft: with graphic descriptions on further airframe proposals using Campini's method, but also describing full-cycle gas-turbine powerplant proposals, in detail, superseding the original Campini method. (All this from a Rome intel-tour that never reached, as yet, into the Milan area, in the war's progress northwards.)

Circumspect

Italian Secret Projects

My dear circumspect, you'll soon find the almost all the info published till now on Campini come from those two documents.... unfortunately, Italian aviation historians for the most part tended to not cite their sources. The remaining info come from later Campini's article (e.g. the famous article on "L'Ala" magazine, January 1948. Other "revelations" come from interviews given by Campini's wife in the and 70s and 80s, after Campini's own death. You wll not find there the late-war application proposals of Campini system to high-altitude interceptors, like the Ca-183bis, essentially because the info base of those reports came from the surviving shreds of the Ministero dell'Aerenonautica archives in Rome and Guidonia the Allies found when they arrived there in June 1944, and on a couple of interviews with Ministero's functionaries who stayed in Rome (very negative on Campini's proposals). You'll find instead the much-maligned proposal(s) by Guidonia's engineers (Broglio and Ferri, above all) for modifying the Re-2005 with a Campini's system.
I may add that the there described turboprop was very sketchy and faced an unsormoutable barrier: we (Italy) had no the metallurgy skills to produce the high strenght alloys to build the turbine fans. And, BTW, to buld a real turbocompressor driven by exhaust gases. That's the reason we resorted to the Campini's system, that worked at much lower temperatures (Caproni Vizzola toyed with turbocompressors for a while and designed a couple of projects that used the DB-605 with a turbocompressor, Sagittario I (or was it II, ?) comes to mind). There are rumours that the turboprop was considered to engine a couple of Breda-Zappata projects.

Italian Secret Projects

By Jove, the series continues unexpected ways! I'm so exited!

Hi Ed, I realize this topic now.
It's big news for me because I have no book for Italian secret projects.

VERY well, so we'll have at least a customer from the Rising Sun ! Spread the news ovr there, Blackkite San, please.

"January 2011 and the book may hit the shelves in the winter of 2011, possibly early 2012" : oh well before the end of world !!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Dear skybolt! I will do my best. But many Japanese air enthusiast will know this book soon by KOKU FAN, AIREVIEW, AIR WORLD magazine. Don't worry.
Blackie

wonderful!!! I'm eager to have a copy....

Keep a copy for me too.

Re: "The Canards of War"(DVD/Eureka Media 2009)

AERO CINEMA w/coordinated US marketing from Historic Aviation bookshop) released a surprising expose on the 'canard' concept, both Allied and Axis, covering (almost!) all the canard concepts to actually fly - excluding the merely tail-pusher types. Unfortunately, this nascent (but now vaunted) British video/TV production blundered - by excluding Ambrosini's S.S.4 from any mention at all!

This latest 1/2-hr video began its revolutionary 'canard' subject on Focke Wulf's charming FW.19 "Duck" (a small late-20s feederliner-concept), which actually flew. Then, continuing into its first 'scare' project: the FW.42 (an early-30s twin-medium bomber, with performance scarcely matching a Martin B-10, except in range). Here, AERO CINEMA feeds the typical UK-audience's German hand: overplaying an H.G. Wells promise of "Things To Come" that this FW.42 threat to civilization held for the Island Kingdom, including its 'cancellation' in the early-30s (to forestall unfavorable English response) - by the nascent Nazi desire not to pre-maturely alarm its neighbors, just yet! (Nicely done though.) Now comes the UK reply!

AERO CINEMA seems to use color films to present the Miles M.39B: more as a Ministry of Defense's exploratory counter-foreshadowing of how a Battle of Britain could be turned into a Battle of Germany, if Britain could also play this 'canard' card; rather than just Miles Aircraft's own initiatives to improve handling-qualities from a pilot's utility. (Again, nicely done, but still expected some discussion about the Handley Page project, given the 'strategic' bend Aero Cinema was lending to its canard presentation.) No further UK projects, as it now crosses the oceans to America and Japan.

The promising Curtiss XP-55 Ascender now gets its full attention, also describing how its 'Ass-ender' byname was earned. However, the final 'canard' masterpiece now awaits its Japanese incarnation.

Here, the Kysushu J7W gets its own final due on its potential to overturn the air war over Japan (as it was unfortunately playing out for Japan by 1945). No doubt, this most formidable of 'canards' climaxed everything the enthusiastic aficionado would expect, including its transition to jet power! (I've seen this most-popularized J7W2 Hasagawa version within even the most recent IPMS-conventions. However, a 'compact' fitting turbojet-engine - of some 3000+lbs-thrust - was not in the offing in Japan for some years, unless they could import a Rolls Royce Derwent! (A mere 2000lbs-thrust engine would be a mouse.) Moreover, 'transonic' stability & control vagaries, already becoming a deadly unknown by the mid-40s, would likely likely play further havoc with a canard concept, as could be easily imagined!

All in all, quite an informative and revelatory video short-subject by AERO CINEMA, with color-graphics to boot. However, its complete omission of any passing mention of Ambrosini's S.S.4 seems unforgivable. This Italian canard sported state-of-art high-performance just as commensurate to its time (1939: including full tactical-weapons potential), as any of the other canards this video covered. AERO CINEMA's omission might seem typical of its staff's (and their audience's) not-yet outgrown notions of German shock 'n' awe.

Therefore, the upcoming: "Italian Secret Projects" book will be the one device to remedy these shortcomings. Apparently, AERO FAN's splendid Italian/English editorship never saw fit to issue any 'mini-serie' monograph about this particular Ambrosini project (as well as some other advanced projects): likely contributing, at least indirectly, to this continuing permissive ignorance about them - a more-enlightened AERO CINEMA series might see fit to remedy? Fortunately, Chris Dunning's stunning new and re-issued subject-books arrived (just it time!) to provide the very incentive to 'anchor' (and re-invigorate!) these promises for Anglo-American audiences, and their desiring authors, alike. Peace.

Robert

To Messrs. Pelzig and Skybolt,

If you need any artistic contributions to your book...be sure to give me a ring.

prolific1 said:

To Messrs. Pelzig and Skybolt,

If you need any artistic contributions to your book...be sure to give me a ring.

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The same by my side.....

Offers aknowledged. BTW, the SS.4 was included in a series of artcles on Stefanutti's projects in Aerofan circa 1985-8. ANd was covered in the Mini-Ali d'Italia book on Stefanutti's light fighters. BTW, the SS.4 suffered from big structural problems.

Good stuff in one of the "Dimensione Cielo" - both on the SS.4 and SS.2 - but you probably know that

If you're interested I'm working on a three-views of Aerfer Leone.

Skybolt said:

BTW, the SS.4 suffered from big structural problems.

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Wow, that's the first I've heard that. Granted, I've been able to find very little on the project besides what has been posted on this forums. Without being intrusive or asking for the article, can you offer a brief explanation to what the structural problem was? Was the main spar too weak, the skin too thin, or some combination of just bad design? I take it this was the reason for the crash?

from "dimensione cielo #2"

The investigation ascertained that the SS.4 lost an aileron due to vibrations. The engine was mounted on the airframe itself (I guess without dampening elements in between), and a contributing factor was an incorrect installation of the aileron itself.

Re: Piaggio P.23R
To: Messrs. "prolific1" and "archipeppe"

Perhaps a stunning test of your respective (perhaps-rival!) capabilities would be fittingly unveiled in any 'real-life' color-graphics of this strange machine (both multi-view and isometric). I believe the whole thing was 'fire-engine' red! perhaps the largest aeroplane ever to sport this color? If there was ever (to be) a 'show-stopper' in a (hypothetical) 'all-Italian' airshow, this P.23R would do it.

I told this story to Giorgio Apostolo: suggesting a fast-seller for an Ali d Italia Mini Serie idea. He kindly mailed me some privately-made (merely B & W) photos of this 'firebird' - but that wasn't my point. Can you just imagine the scene: if I strolled into some IPMS-convention - with a (scratchbuilt) 1/72 Piaggio P.23R, and set it on a model-table!

Interestingly, both Piaggio aircraft (P.23R & P.108B) were pictured-together (as small crude penciled half-tone rear 3/4 views: 7 o'clock-positions) in: "FLIGHT" (a prominent British periodical), issue: February 22, 1940, p. 180. Apparently (5-months before the Battle of Britain was to start), the editors expected both aircraft to shortly enter service, concomitantly.

My own feelings about the P.23R? I think Piaggio miserably failed its potential by inadequate engine-development (but that 'shortcoming' was relatively ubiquitous throughout the entire Italian aero-engine community). With turbo-superchargers, the P.23R would have been a strategic-reconnaissance aircraft of the highest order (w/a little-more wingspan, a small-forward ventral-gondola for observation & cameras, and NOT fire-engine red, of course!)

Anyway, do either of you (after reckoning this sizable-aircraft in fire-engine red) accept the challenge?
(Methinks a P23R cover-page would sell the whole-book, at one glance. I'm serious!)

Cheers

I will look forward for some more detailed infos about the P-23R.....

Era ora !!!!!

Does either Author have an Agent? Does the Publisher know the Work is being discussed or promoted this way on this board without the Publisher's participation?

Just a thought......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Terry:

Both myself and Skybolt are under contract by Ian Allan Publishing to write the Italian secret project book.

As for the discussion on the book, our editor is very much aware we discuss the book on this forum (as are many of Ian Allan's titles). In part, this is for promotion but also because we value feedback, suggestions, and input by the membership here. And, of course, constructive critique of the final work once released.

Cheers,

Ed

Caravellarella said:

Does either Author have an Agent? Does the Publisher know the Work is being discussed or promoted this way on this board without the Publisher's participation?

Just a thought......

Terry (Caravellarella)

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To All,

Chris Dunning's recently updated "Courage Alone" (as with his more recent "Regia Aeronautica: The Italian Air Forces 1923-1945") will likely remain peerless in telling English readers the complete operational histories of all wartime Italian air forces: at last, within the finality of these two books! The latter seems a layman's prelude to the former (requiring much greater reading patience!) but a nice short intro to the overall 'participation-mystique' of the era. However, the author chose not to be a 'technocrat' in either book, perhaps with interim 'consequences' for some aspirants of Mr Dyer's upcoming book.

One searches in vain for a single 'specification-window' (for any aircraft) citing an airspeed, rate-of-climb, time-to-climb, altitude, range, et al. Ditto any dimensionality, weights, any descriptions of armaments, bomb-loads, etc. (None, even incidentally within the text!) Unlike most 'aeroplane' books (especially within the UK-publication traditions, i.e., PUTNAM and most British periodicals), which tabulate 'specs' galore but give only brief 'hatches' of operational highlights: these two special books honor a thoroughgoing logistical, geographical, and mission/results perspective, from beginning to end, but matching its remarkable 'forest-and-tree' minutiae also in its carefully-selected photos/captions and color profiles (mostly side only, but a few top views also). But, what does all this have to do with: "Italian Secret Projects" in the future?

For a novice: neither book instills sufficient feel of 'contemporary' performance (or armament) that could anticipate the next desired step, as it were: 400mph and a 40,000ft-ceiling were impossible entering WWII, hardly so by mid-war. To get the full import of something like: "Secret Italian Projects" one ought to be (a priori) familiar with already contemporaneous Italian aircraft states-of-art (with a fair measure of their oppositional aircraft, as well). In fact, no single in-print tomb (technically describing 'all' Italian aircraft) exists today, and nothing on the horizon, unless PUTNAM will reverse their declination to Rene Francillon, long ago. The only remedy promising to (sufficiently?) 'prerequisite' the aspirant-reader to Mr Dyer's upcoming project still remains an OOP book published 47 years ago: "Italian Civil and Military Aircraft 1930-45" by Jonathan Thompson and Aero Publishers (neither extant today).

Therefore, I still recommend this ancient tomb (unsurpassed as the only English-language single volume ever made) as the best preparatory reading for: "Italian Secret Projects" and often available (used) on AMAZON, in 'good' condition. (Especially, all of yous frequenting this particular subject hangout; no excuses!)

Robert

I will agree that Jonathan Thompson's book is well worth the find (which, luckily, I was able to given how long it has been out of print) and should make a nice companion book to ours. Skybolt and I have selected some of the more interesting and diverse Italian aircraft, both military and civilian, to include in our secret project work with current and as much data as can be had. It won't include every project, however (which may be saved for another volume, sales depending) so Thompson's book can fill any gaps in the meantime.

Cheers!

Circumspect said:

The only remedy promising to (sufficiently?) 'prerequisite' the aspirant-reader to Mr Dyer's upcoming project still remains an OOP book published 47 years ago: "Italian Civil and Military Aircraft 1930-45" by Jonathan Thompson and Aero Publishers (neither extant today).

Therefore, I still recommend this ancient tomb (unsurpassed as the only English-language single volume ever made) as the best preparatory reading for: "Italian Secret Projects" and often available (used) on AMAZON, in 'good' condition. (Especially, all of yous frequenting this particular subject hangout; no excuses!)

Robert

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The SS.3 and SS.4 are included in the book. ;D

Cheers,

Ed

Circumspect said:

All in all, quite an informative and revelatory video short-subject by AERO CINEMA, with color-graphics to boot. However, its complete omission of any passing mention of Ambrosini's S.S.4 seems unforgivable. This Italian canard sported state-of-art high-performance just as commensurate to its time (1939: including full tactical-weapons potential), as any of the other canards this video covered. AERO CINEMA's omission might seem typical of its staff's (and their audience's) not-yet outgrown notions of German shock 'n' awe.

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We wait for this book... :-*

It is worth waiting, I assure you all...

Hikoki1946 and Skybolt: (Granted, it will be worth waiting for.) But (as an engineer once myself), no device make sense, except as postured against issued 'specifications' beforehand, whether they were sensible or not! Of course, your reader (any reader) should have already gleaned the 'specs' (from your text) before confronting the subject-aircraft. But I also recommend: 'grouping' all your 'candidate' aircraft-ideas, together (like downward branches-of-a-tree) if they issued from the same 'common' specifications that sanctioned them, for comparison's sake! (I already know all about the P.108. But what did its 'competitors' look like? What was the 'common' specs to all of them?) In other words: all 'candidate' aircraft - issuing from the same Ministry Request For Proposal - should be the subject of a single chapter? So, instead of (alphabetically) by parent-company name: define each chapter around the competitive specification and the 'candidates' that issued forth, together.

Circumspect:

While I certainly see your logic in such a book layout, for our particular title, I don't think it would work well. We are pulling some of the more fantastic and interesting Italian designs across a span of 28 years, both military and civilian, so, with picking and choosing various specific aircraft from the spectrum of designs available, it wouldn't fit well with the formula you laid out. Depending on the text, other aircraft are mentioned or discussed to give context and basis. For example, with the Reggiane RE 2005 SF (or the Re.2005R source depending), it was prudent to discuss the Re.2005 itself and what led to its design to give the reader an understanding of the aircraft, why it was considered to use the Re.2005 and install a thermojet in it, and also enlighten the reader on the conflicts for resources the various aircraft producers had.

Your design would work well if the book was a comprehensive treatment of all experimental aircraft but the size restrictions of our book (both page count and word count) required us to pick and choose and provide in-depth detail for the aircraft we chose. Nevertheless, it won't fail to disappoint!

Regards,

Ed

Circumspect said:

Hikoki1946 and Skybolt: (Granted, it will be worth waiting for.) But (as an engineer once myself), no device make sense, except as postured against issued 'specifications' beforehand, whether they were sensible or not! Of course, your reader (any reader) should have already gleaned the 'specs' (from your text) before confronting the subject-aircraft. But I also recommend: 'grouping' all your 'candidate' aircraft-ideas, together (like downward branches-of-a-tree) if they issued from the same 'common' specifications that sanctioned them, for comparison's sake! (I already know all about the P.108. But what did its 'competitors' look like? What was the 'common' specs to all of them?) In other words: all 'candidate' aircraft - issuing from the same Ministry Request For Proposal - should be the subject of a single chapter? So, instead of (alphabetically) by parent-company name: define each chapter around the competitive specification and the 'candidates' that issued forth, together.

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There will probably be a short introduction (or Appendix, like in other SP volumes) on competitions giving rise to some of the designs. Problem is that not all the competitions' specs have survived (actualy, only a few), and moreover some designs seem to spring out of nowhere. This has led some historians to speculate on unknown requirements etc, but this often led to lump together projects distant in time. Example: there isn't a single sherd of documents saying that the twin fuselage fighter projects of late war were drawn to some official requirement, as has often been stated. On the contrary, there is proof (actually, hint) of the opposite. The MC.205 Bifusoliera was for example sketched on point request of General Ilari directly to Macchi, and went nowhere in few days. The CA.380 Corsaro was drawn probably on request, but for a different one than others twin fuselage (Italian Mosquito, I dubbed it "Zanzara"). Maybe G.58 and SM.92 are related, but almost surely Re.2005 Bifusoliera isn't related. And SM.92 isn't a derivative of the SM.91, the design of SM.92 was frozen BEFORE the SM.91 as flown was. Actually, when SM.92 was named, the designation SM.91 was still used internaly at Savoia for a dive bomber project. Reconstructing the history of ISP from late 1941 to 1944 is really a matter of sheer chronological reconstruction.

Looking forward to it; keep inspired by the responses you're getting.

Depending on how much page-space you have, some intro-chapters and appendices might be in order: aero engines/powerplants (both available and anticipated). Ditto any key biographies, brief descriptions industrial structuring, esp. R & D capabilities et al. No aircraft can ever be better than its engine. Furthermore, wind-tunnels and test-sites require prolonged sustenance to investment, equipage, personnel and pedagogy. (As for powerplants, my impressions are of an indigenous aero engine industry that was, unfortunately, 'driven' by airframe requirements (rather than the other way around in America!) As for the Volta 'high-speed' conference (1935), I have yet to hear of 'reactions' to this conference from indigenous Italian engineers (except maybe Campini), and from any curious gov/industrial officials.

Just a short update. The manuscript for the book goes into the publisher this coming March. Publication is due sometime in 2012.

Just to note, despite the news some of you may have heard about Ian Allan downsizing and streamlining their book titles, they have informed me that this book will proceed to publication.

I seem to have been remiss in listing out the aircraft which are slated to appear in the book. They include:

Adamoli-Cattani fighter
Ambrosini SS.3
Ambrosini SS.4
Bellomo M.B.902
Beltrame Colibri
Bestetti Nardi BN.1
Bestetti BN.2
Bestetti BN.3
Bestetti BN.4
Breda Zappata BZ.308
Bugatti Model 100
Campini thermojet fighter and bomber
Caproni Campini N.1/N.2
Caproni Ca 60 Noviplano
Caproni Ca.183bis
Caproni Ca.380
Caproni-Vizzola F.6Z
Ciro Lamanna "Tutt Ala CL" or BWB bomber
D'Ascanio D'AT3 helicopter
Giovanni Pegna flying wing seaplane
IMAM Ro.67
Jona J.6
Jona J.10
Lombardi (SAIMAN) LB.2
Macchi C.205 Bifusoliera
Magni RR
Piaggio P.7
Piaggio P.23R
Piaggio P.50
Piaggio P.119
Piaggio P.127
Piaggio P.130
Piana-Canova all-wing planes
Reggiane Re.2005R and Re.2005 twin-fuselage designs
Reggaiane "Re.2007"
S.A.I. Ambrosini A.R.
SAI S-404
Savoia-Marchetti S.65
Savoia-Marchetti SM.91
Savoia-Marchetti SM.92
Stipa-Caproni
Caproni Ca.161

Skybolt, co-author of the book, has a few more and of course, contents are subject to change.

(Drool)

mmhhmmm ,and the others ? ??? ???
well, i hope will be only the first volume !