Black projects: can we agree to disagree?

(I originally posted this in the Northrop ATOP topic but moved it here for obvious reasons... it was clearly "bar" material!)

I certainly do not want to get anyone annoyed or to get into endless polemics... This being said, I think we all have a right, whether we are extremely knowledgeable as some obviously are, or just overly enthusiastic, to have our own appreciation of whether there are Black Programs going on or not. So, while some of you obviously choose to believe there is nothing hidden out there, allow me to remind you of certain facts that I truly believe deserve attention:

- Two USAF pilots have quoted a "YF-24" in their resumes, indicating procurement of an experimental unknown type, even if it could just be a couple of prototypes.

- There have been too many sightings over the years of abnormally fast aircraft over half-deserted areas, some making no sonic boom, some with strange donut-shaped contrails, and so forth for there not to be at least a couple of black programs going on. Many have witnessed triangular shapes all over the world, with matching descriptions. True, It all could be unmanned stuff, but they have been flying all the same.

- Unless I'm not up to date, there is still a SENIOR CITIZEN program that appeared in DoD fundings for a few years and that no-one knows about...

- The supposedly non-existant F-19 designation has appeared on one (presumably serious) defense subcontractor's website for several years with lots of details that do NOT correspond to the F-117 at all! I personally recall a French air force commander describing a scene he witnessed in Spain back in 1986 during the Libyan episode when they unloaded a strangely-shaped aircraft from a C-5 Galaxy, allegedly to give the Libyans a quick bashing (until someone decided to stick with F-14s). You don't dogfight MiG-23s with Nighthawks, right?! Witnesses in the UK saw an YF-23-like aircraft crash in Boscombe Down about a decade ago. Can you tell all these people they are wrong?

- The USAF took over 40 years to divulge the Yak-23 and MiG-21 tests, the Oxcart, Fish and others... Why would they suddenly decide to make every test program visible?

- The Bird of Prey, Polecat, Tacit Blue, Amber, Sneaky Pete and many more flew for years without anyone knowing about them. True, they were company-owned and civil registered, but as part of DoD funded evaluations, right? Why would that sort of test programs suddenly cease to exist?

Okay, so it is my belief that these black programs not only DO exist, but that they are thriving, what with all the million dollars that have been used on defense for 30 years while in actual fact so few programs reached the FSD stage. And I appreciate to read the postings of those who do not agree. Staunch denial of such programs on the one hand, OR crazy UFO spotters and conspirers on the other hand, are undesirable and unrealistic in my view. There has GOT to be plenty of ground in the middle for discussion and speculation. Isn't this partly what this forum is about?

Actually, the primary purpose of this forum is to discuss unbuilt projects. That is, designs that were never built. The name was inspired from the Midland Counties series of Secret Projects book.

Of course, there are discussions about possible black projects, along with other more general aerospace discussions on the site, but the site rules particularly discourage wild speculation e.g.:

Posts on UFOs, Nazi wunderwaffen/flying saucers, 9/11 conspiracy theories, alien crashes, moon landing denials and the like are specifically not encouraged and would be better posted elsewhere.

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I would also point out that personal anecdotes are the least convincing type of evidence. That is not to say black projects don't exist. I'm sure they do, and there are serious researchers looking for proof.

I am going to go with Stargazer on this one. Our defense spending is so fantastically gigantic that people cannot begin to fathom the things our defense industry has produced. I just hope its not all kept under wraps for 50 years...

Sublight,

You aren't kidding -- It is quite amazing how much money we spend on the military

KJ_Lesnick said:

Sublight,

You aren't kidding -- It is quite amazing how much money we spend on the military

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It's not as huge as it sounds when you compare relative salaries of people in the US military to those in say, the Chinese military. Then factor in the relative salaires of those who make all the goodies etc. all the way up and down the chain and I wouldn't be at all surprised if China outspends the US in real terms.

sferrin said:

It's not as huge as it sounds when you compare relative salaries of people in the US military to those in say, the Chinese military. Then factor in the relative salaries of those who make all the goodies etc. all the way up and down the chain and I wouldn't be at all surprised if China outspends the US in real terms.

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I don't think its relative. Unless China has blueprints and specs of all our insanely and unpublicized advanced technology, AND the scientists to interpret it, you could give them a trillion dollars in cash, and they still would not be able to catch up. One of the former Lockheed presidents said "anything you could possibly dream up, we have already built in a lab" and he was not joking.

Sorry, let me add one more thing. Go look at the new Geo Eye pic of Area 51 taken June 29th. There are a LOT of hangars hosting multiple "platforms" there including a giant hangar for a relatively new platform. So I do believe there is more than one "black project" in service right now.

Unless China has blueprints and specs of all our insanely and unpublicized advanced technology, AND the scientists to interpret it, you could give them a trillion dollars in cash, and they still would not be able to catch up

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I agree with sublight too.

USA raised from a second rank power to a superpower status in 4 years. That is remarkable fact can't be explained in dollars alone.

With more than a little help from many German scientists' papers... :

Obviously, it can't be denied.

But just another factor in the sumatory. The US received know-how transferences from UK too. And USA alone produced great science and technology alone and they had good management practices to put it all at work together.

sublight said:

Sorry, let me add one more thing. Go look at the new Geo Eye pic of Area 51 taken June 29th. There are a LOT of hangars hosting multiple "platforms" there including a giant hangar for a relatively new platform. So I do believe there is more than one "black project" in service right now.

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Well that's one conclusion to draw. So far there is nothing I have seen that indicates the new, large hangar is for a new program at all. For all we know the "museum" has run out of space and they're moving everything into the new hangar.

The flow of consumables and personnel into the base though has not abated at all, it has in fact increased in the past 2 years. So there is something going on there, certainly.

To the best of my knowledge though, no *operational* DoD unit has been based there. RED EAGLES and SENIOR TREND were both moved to TTR when operational, even if the aircraft each did their initial flights at the ranch.
And hey! There is a new tenant unit at TTR! Imagine that.

quellish said:

sublight said:

Sorry, let me add one more thing. Go look at the new Geo Eye pic of Area 51 taken June 29th. There are a LOT of hangars hosting multiple "platforms" there including a giant hangar for a relatively new platform. So I do believe there is more than one "black project" in service right now.

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Well that's one conclusion to draw. So far there is nothing I have seen that indicates the new, large hangar is for a new program at all. For all we know the "museum" has run out of space and they're moving everything into the new hangar.

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<cough, cough>

sferrin said:

<cough, cough>

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Yup, that's the large scoot-n-hide shelter. What he means is the new hangar here, the construction of which you can see on your photo.
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/area51/sat_image_2009.html

quellish said:

sferrin said:

<cough, cough>

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Yup, that's the large scoot-n-hide shelter. What he means is the new hangar here, the construction of which you can see on your photo.
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/area51/sat_image_2009.html

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Maybe it's more of a permanent hangar for whatever is in the "scoot-n-hide" shelter. BTW I'd sure like to know what's in the row of hangars at the south end of the base. It would appear to be something in series production (even if a small series) and not something in the open. Then there's the six hot spots for F-16s near the runway. Questions, questions, questions.

sferrin said:

Maybe it's more of a permanent hangar for whatever is in the "scoot-n-hide" shelter. BTW I'd sure like to know what's in the row of hangars at the south end of the base. It would appear to be something in series production (even if a small series) and not something in the open. Then there's the six hot spots for F-16s near the runway. Questions, questions, questions.

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The 15 or so hangars that look to have slate grey roofs in the photo are housing. The old A-12 hangars are still there, I just can't recall which ones the are. Now they are used for various projects or are "rented out" to contractors. The north end area where the chase F-16s are is used by the Red Hats (MiGs, etc) and Ghost (SAR) groups.

This may be helpful, though not quite as detailed at the old map that "Shadowhawk" put together.
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/area51/area51map.html

Stargazer2006 said:

With more than a little help from many German scientists' papers... :

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Not in the period of 1941 to 1945.

In response to Stargazer's original post:

--There's nothing to suggest that "donuts on a rope" are the byproduct of an exotic propulsion system. If anything, they can be created by very normal aircraft under certain atmospheric conditions.

--SENIOR CITIZEN dates back to the early 90's, and there's no hard evidence that hardware was ever produced.

--F-19 was the designation originally assigned to the F-5G program. Northrop then successfully lobbied to skip F-19 in favor of F-20 for marketing purposes.

I'd also add that for as much money as the DoD spends, there are a lot of mind-numbingly-dumb inefficiencies which contribute to the inflated costs of programs. It's not safe to assume that bloated defense budgets imply black programs.

CFE said:

In response to Stargazer's original post:

--There's nothing to suggest that "donuts on a rope" are the byproduct of an exotic propulsion system. If anything, they can be created by very normal aircraft under certain atmospheric conditions.

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There is a company that have produced an exotic propulsion system and they admit it produces 'Toridal votices'. They however refuse to talk about the 'donought on a ropes' contrails that have been seen. I'll hunt down the company page where its on.

NASA has a "flight experiment" planned for 2001, and has designed a hybrid pulse-detonation air-breather/rocket in conjunction with US company Adroit Systems, which has tested an experimental propulsion tube. Bushnell says that such compressorless engines produce toroidal vortices, but will not comment on strange contrails associated with the "Aurora" - the much-rumoured US military replacement aircraft for the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird.

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Adroit Systems.


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1997/11/26/30037/towards-hypersonic-flight.html

Sorry if this isn't 'new' information to any of you, but if I don't post it, I don't know if its any use.

CFE said:

--There's nothing to suggest that "donuts on a rope" are the byproduct of an exotic propulsion system. If anything, they can be created by very normal aircraft under certain atmospheric conditions.

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I confirm that. I saw something very similar above my own house, produced by standard jet airliner. It is very rare effect, but sometimes happens. Unfortunatelly I didnt have the digital camera at that time

CFE said:

--SENIOR CITIZEN dates back to the early 90's, and there's no hard evidence that hardware was ever produced.

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Discussed here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.0/highlight,senior+citizen.html

sferrin said:

......BTW I'd sure like to know what's in the row of hangars at the south end of the base. It would appear to be something in series production (even if a small series) and not something in the open...

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A brief poster 'wolfbane' perhaps 6 or 7 years ago on the DLR website discussion forum (still in the archives) who gave the impression of having had *some* level of insider knowledge stated that the 4 individual hangars there housed examples of the 'Fastmover' seen by Meinrad Eberle (http://www.dreamlandresort.com/trip_reports/trip_020.html) - hardly conclusive yes, but an interesting add to the lore since you were curious....

He also said 'Copper Coast' (specifically - not Canyon) was in 'Hangar 18', so it's interesting that you've chosen the X24C-L301 vehicle for an illustration of scale in one of those images! (have some insider knowledge yourself?? ;D)

(disclaimer: this is the Bar - I'm not suggesting this is a reliable source, merely an interesting light-hearted discussion!)

Matej said:

CFE said:

--SENIOR CITIZEN dates back to the early 90's, and there's no hard evidence that hardware was ever produced.

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Discussed here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.0/highlight,senior+citizen.html

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I did a whole article on SENIOR CITIZEN back in 2006 which appears on my Rutan site, so I kind of researched the subject!

http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircraft/citizen.htm

Of course, as you rightly put it, there is "no hard evidence" and there can never be when it comes to secret programs...

When ever I see 'Senior Citizen' I always think of the recent Bill Sweetman article with his take on whats hiding in Groom Lake test area.

The VTOL transport was sweet, and he was 99% accurate about the fast jet UCAV he had drawn, which was in all but name Predator C.

When ever I see 'Senior Citizen' I always think of the recent Bill Sweetman article

He's not that old is he?

Considering the level of activity at Groom Lake over the last 20+ years, in terms of construction and Janets, and the steady growth of classified funding as a proportion of the USAF R&D budget, something had better be going on.

quellish said:

And hey! There is a new tenant unit at TTR! Imagine that.

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Really? Do tell....

sublight said:

quellish said:

And hey! There is a new tenant unit at TTR! Imagine that.

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Really? Do tell....

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http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Mar-04-Sat-2006/news/6183518.html
"In addition, McVay this week acknowledged the existence of a Predator test squadron, the 30th Reconnaissance Squadron at the Tonopah Test Range, about 145 miles northwest of Las Vegas. Its operations are classified, he said.

The 30th, McVay said, was activated in a low-key ceremony in August."

Stargazer2006 said:

I did a whole article on SENIOR CITIZEN back in 2006 which appears on my Rutan site, so I kind of researched the subject!

http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircraft/citizen.htm

Of course, as you rightly put it, there is "no hard evidence" and there can never be when it comes to secret programs...

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That's not entirely true - if you are persistent and look in the right places, you actually can get even physical evidence. The right scrap and junk sales can yield interesting souvenirs.

Stargazer2006 said:

- Two USAF pilots have quoted a "YF-24" in their resumes, indicating procurement of an experimental unknown type, even if it could just be a couple of prototypes.

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Two pilots? Joseph Lanni and who?

sublight said:

[...] and specs of all our insanely and unpublicized advanced technology, [...]

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How do you know it's "insanely advanced" when it's unpublished? Sounds like "jumping to conclusions" to me ... :-\

One of the former Lockheed presidents said "anything you could possibly dream up, we have already built in a lab" and he was not joking.

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How do you know he was not joking? In fact, this particular quote (if it is indeed what a Lockheed prez said) has to be a joke, because "anything you can possibly dream of" is ... well ... anything! Including time-machines, warp drive spaceships, light sabres ;D , ...

Sorry, but I'm a die-hard skeptic B)! I want to see evidence and not the umpteenth re-iteration of "I heard there is ...", "Someone said they saw ...", etc.

Andreas Parsch said:

Stargazer2006 said:

- Two USAF pilots have quoted a "YF-24" in their resumes, indicating procurement of an experimental unknown type, even if it could just be a couple of prototypes.

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Two pilots? Joseph Lanni and who?

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Wish I could remember... When it was put up on the web, I distinctly remember reading two distinct resumes of pilots quoting the YF-24 in their flying experience. I may even have saved them to my old computer, from which I lost most files unfortunately. But the two pages were from the same site, and similar in every way.

quellish said:

sferrin said:

Maybe it's more of a permanent hangar for whatever is in the "scoot-n-hide" shelter. BTW I'd sure like to know what's in the row of hangars at the south end of the base. It would appear to be something in series production (even if a small series) and not something in the open. Then there's the six hot spots for F-16s near the runway. Questions, questions, questions.

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The 15 or so hangars that look to have slate grey roofs in the photo are housing. The old A-12 hangars are still there, I just can't recall which ones the are. Now they are used for various projects or are "rented out" to contractors.

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These are the ones I'm talking about.

We ma not need the YF-24 reference.
The following is pretty interesting!

From: http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=10031
(Capilals added by me for emphasis)


A subset of the General's bio follows:

BRIGADIER GENERAL JOSEPH A. LANNI

Brig. Gen. Joseph A. Lanni is the Commander, Air Force Security Assistance Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. He leads the agency charged with promoting security assistance and national security objectives by building relationships with U.S. international partners. As commander, General Lanni is AFMC's focal point for administering the Air Force's $92.7 billion security assistance budget supporting foreign military sales to more than 96 countries, operating more than 6,000 aircraft and other weapons systems. He develops and executes international agreements and manages the command's international affairs and all foreign disclosure policies.

General Lanni was commissioned in 1980 following graduation from the U.S. Air Force Academy. He has served as an operational fighter pilot, aggressor pilot and experimental test pilot. HIS COMMANDS INCLUDE THE NATIONS ONLY CLASSIFIED FLIGHT TEST SQUADRON and the 412th Test Wing. General Lanni directed the F/A-22 Combined Test Force at the Air Force Flight Test Center, and he served as a staff officer at Headquarters U.S. Air Force and the Joint Staff. Prior to his current assignment, he was the Director of Air, Space and Information Operations for Air Force Materiel Command.

The general is a command pilot with more than 4,700 flying hours in more than 90 different types of aircraft, including the F-22 and NUMEROUS CLASSIFIED PROTOTYPES.



So - even say that the YF-24 is a mispelling or whatever (I wasn't able to find YF-23 listed). The general indicates on his bio that
there exists "numerous classified prototypes" that are mentioned seperately from 90 different types of aircraft including the F-22.

Also, the General is current as of July 2009. So this web page is really current! ie: there are still CLASSIFIED PROTOTYPES !

The FLANKERs and FULCRUMs at Groom are likely housed in some of those hangars.

"numerous classified prototypes"

You just gotta LOVE this phrase!!! : ;D

sferrin said:

These are the ones I'm talking about.

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Those would be the A-12 hangars, yes. The rightmost is more recent.
From the front:
http://habu.org/a-12/06933.html

Just found a copy I made in 2007 of an article about Lanni.
Unfortunately I do not have the reference of the page I copied it from.
I can't recall if the first sentence was from the same source as the rest.

Joseph A. "Broadway Joe" Lanni flew first flights of two classified prototypes during the late 1990s. One of them was designated YF-24.

Assignments throughout his career include Commander of the 412th Test Wing (2004-2006), Director of the F/A-22 Combined Test Force (2002-2004), assistant operations officer for the 6513th Test Squadron "Red Hats" (1992-1994), operations officer for the 413th Flight Test Squadron (1994-1995), commander of the Special Projects Flight Test Squadron (1995-1997), vice commander of DET 3 AFFTC (2001-2002). Lanni has served as an operational fighter pilot, aggressor pilot, and experimental test pilot with more than 4,300 flying hours in over 70 different types of aircraft including numerous classified prototypes. Lanni was a semi-finalist in NASA group 14 (1992) and 15 (1994) astronaut selections.

Everyone at Secret Projects here is a simple thought experiment. Although what follows is not absolutely provably true it is probably true.

Every current product ever developed improves over time. The next version of the iPhone is supposed to have the same computing power that NASA had for the Apollo program. Think of that for a minute.

The development program for the A-12/SR-71 is over 40 years old. Can anyone reasonably expect no progress to have been made since? As sferrin pointed out on another thread Aerojet developed and tested a 260" solid propellant booster in the 60's. It took the Soviets another 20 plus years to build a reliable solid propellant ballistic missile.

Now to kind of contradict myself, I think that what is going on in secret will assuredly amaze us. However, I am not sure if we will be amazed at what tremendous progress we have made or for the fact that we have made so little in the last 40 or 50 years.

quellish said:

sferrin said:

These are the ones I'm talking about.

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Those would be the A-12 hangars, yes.

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If you look at the picture compared to the 2002 one they've obviously been refurbished with new pavement out front. Why do that when all the Blackbirds are in museums?

Stargazer2006 said:

Just found a copy I made in 2007 of an article about Lanni.
Unfortunately I do not have the reference of the page I copied it from.
I can't recall if the first sentence was from the same source as the rest.

Joseph A. "Broadway Joe" Lanni flew first flights of two classified prototypes during the late 1990s. One of them was designated YF-24.

Assignments throughout his career include Commander of the 412th Test Wing (2004-2006), Director of the F/A-22 Combined Test Force (2002-2004), assistant operations officer for the 6513th Test Squadron "Red Hats" (1992-1994), operations officer for the 413th Flight Test Squadron (1994-1995), commander of the Special Projects Flight Test Squadron (1995-1997), vice commander of DET 3 AFFTC (2001-2002). Lanni has served as an operational fighter pilot, aggressor pilot, and experimental test pilot with more than 4,300 flying hours in over 70 different types of aircraft including numerous classified prototypes. Lanni was a semi-finalist in NASA group 14 (1992) and 15 (1994) astronaut selections.

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This covers this topic more in depth:
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/black_projects/black_projects_history.html

SOC said:

The FLANKERs and FULCRUMs at Groom are likely housed in some of those hangars.

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That would be REALLY disappointing. (Which means you're probably right.)