British 1960 manned Lunar Project

Michel Van

Michel Van

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back in 1960 P. A. E. Stewart proposed a British manned Moon Program

with the use of Blue Streak and Black Knight technolgy

phase 1, 1960 to 1963 first probes (ranger types) to the moon
Phase 2, 1964 to 1967 Hardware testing on earth Low orbit and Lunar Orbit.
phase 3, 1968 to 1969 the first manned landing in Piazzi Smyth crater
Phase 4, 1970 to 1971 The lunar surface expedition (70 days)

the First Rockets are Blue Prince like
(Blue Streak HTP/Rp-1, second stage with 4 stenton engine and later Lox/Lh2 upper stage)

for Manned Lunar Landing they need bigger Rocket
the Blue Streak is modifed to 12 x RZ.2 engine in first stage and reusable
the second stage is a Blue Prince or a Nuclear upper stage
with ammonia- or hydrogen-fueled, it brings 7 tons to lunar surface
i nic name this one Blue Dart or Black Dart ;D

the Landing take place on in Piazzi Smyth crater, near Mt. Piton in Mare Imbrium.
on Phase 4 there small Lunar base were surface expedition hardware is assembling
landed by unmanned cargo flights

the Expeditions are two teams.
one move to northward for Mt. Pico, Plato, and Alpine Valley.
at Plato they resupply by unmanned Cargo lander
two move southward, exploring Cassini, Aristillus, and Archimedes craters.
at Aristillus they resupply by unmanned Cargo lander

as Capsul they use Mercury type spacecraft
later a Armstrong Whitworth waverider (lifting body)

http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/2009/02/surface-exploration-of-moon-1960.html

Surface Exploration of the Moon, P. A. E. Stewart,
Spaceflight, Volume 3, Number 2, March 1961, pp. 34-48;
paper presented at the British Interplanetary Society, London, United Kingdom,
September 17, 1960.

question
has some one more info on this Big Lunar Rocket ?
thanks in advance
 

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Thx Barrington
that must be one of Phase 1 automatic lander.

here some internal link image
moonpro4-jpg.71867

note on right, the lunar lander with two Armstrong-Whitworth Pyramid
(a 4 men craft ?)

scan0023a-jpg.74387

Crew return to earth
 
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hey there! :) was one of my fav movies ever
suspect that UK manned Moon mission would be ... stylish
 

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What's the name of the film?

Look they wear diving helmets in the Moon!!!!
 
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058100/
 

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agreed, that is what I always want to see
 
pometablava said:
What's the name of the film?

Look they wear diving helmets in the Moon!!!!
Click to expand...

Hi Pometablava
Of course there are seas on the moon, must be Mare Imbrium! Should have told Mountbatten there were Seas to be found on the Moon, he might not have scuppered the Programme!
 
Note that the lunar map is South up, i.e. a telescopic view.....

cheers,
Robin.
 
Michel Van said:
more insane of that scene is
the actors wear british Windak spacesuit !

and spezial thanks on Barrington Bond for those Picture
Click to expand...


When I thought the history of the UK/Commonwealth Space Programme could not become even more Bizarre you chaps prove me wrong.
The irony is these appear to be real suits the best in the World for their generation and time that had a direct influence on the USA Apollo Suits, being used in a work of fiction.!
 
Michel Van said:
index.php
Click to expand...

Does anyone know how the "ground current" telegraph shown in this picture was supposed to work? As I understand it, in a ground-current system you still need to have one wire running between the two stations, but there don't appear to be any wires in use here.
 
instead transmit telegraph signals by wire they use lunar soil for that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_telegraphy#Ground_and_water_conduction
 
Michel Van said:
best scene from that movie ;D
index.php

WAT the Brits were before us on the Moon ?!#§
Click to expand...


Any one know the mark of helmet, is the backpack from other picture of this group the Normalair special?
Is the blue Space Suit is similar to the one on display at the Science Museum?
 
I corresponded with Peter Stewart and spoke with him at length about the paper. It was never taken seriously by the British Parlament, it was deemed too expensive to develop. There was an interim Booster proposed, which was a "fat" (12 feet Diameter) Blue Streak with 4 engines. It would have had uprated RZ.2 engines (projected thrust of each of the uprated engines would have been 250,000lbs to 300,000lbs) which would made it comparable to the Saturn 1. But that to "fell foul" of the politicians! As did the Cyrogenic upper stages, which some work had been done, especially the engines which were in Centaur class for thrust. Sauders Roe had done some work on a cryogenic upper stage for the Black Knight. The "fly-back" booster in Peter's paper would have had 8 RZ.2 engines and 2 turbo jets for the return; it was not studied in detail.
The AWA waverider gliders for the Lunar landings (Expedition) would have been "back-to-back" for most of operation, only separating for re-entry and landing. They were studied in detail; and had the 4 engined Blue Streak and the cryogenic upper stages been pursued, we might have had a space program!
I started some illustrations for a book I have abandoned, they might be of interest.
 

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Fantastic picture DarkLord
what your source ?

Interesting is that Hydrogene Blue streaks that show similarity with ELDO-B1 and B2 version

and that Nuclear stage look odd, is here the reactor core shielded in the stage adapter ?!
 
Fantastic illustrations.

I started some illustrations for a book I have abandoned
Click to expand...

what would it take for the project to be dis-abandoned ? o_O

that and the BAC MUSTARD...

Can't help thinking about the Selene project :)

The Selene Project

An Act of Desperation To the casual observer, it can certainly seem odd that two nations, which between them had launched a grand total of one satellite, would agree to do something as ambitious as landing astronauts on the Moon. With the benefit of hindsight, the treaty signed by Harold...
www.alternatehistory.com
 
Technically, all very feasible.

The obvious problem is money. The UK couldn't even afford to develop the Blue Streak/Black Knight launcher, let alone produce something on this scale. Zuckerman relates an anecdote that a senior American asked if the UK would like to get involved in parts of the American space programme. Zuckerman then told him that the total R & D defence budget was £200 million a year – to which the American replied that this was going to be a nonstarter.
 
Apollo cost 12 times more than Concorde, itself already stretching if not straining anglo-french resources.
 
CNH said:
Technically, all very feasible.

The obvious problem is money. The UK couldn't even afford to develop the Blue Streak/Black Knight launcher, let alone produce something on this scale. Zuckerman relates an anecdote that a senior American asked if the UK would like to get involved in parts of the American space programme. Zuckerman then told him that the total R & D defence budget was £200 million a year – to which the American replied that this was going to be a nonstarter.
Click to expand...

WHAT space program ? civilian apollo or military ?
 
USA had Money and Industrial output to do Apollo Program, What lack Great Britain
But USA had lack of technician and Engineers, so allot of British came with Green cart to work at NASA or there suppliers.

It's sad that the Commonwealth of Nations not agreeing on common Space Program.
With combine effort of Great Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand (plus with Singapore and India)
Combine they had Money and Industrial output to equal Apollo Program...
 
CNH said:
Technically, all very feasible.

The obvious problem is money. The UK couldn't even afford to develop the Blue Streak/Black Knight launcher, let alone produce something on this scale. Zuckerman relates an anecdote that a senior American asked if the UK would like to get involved in parts of the American space programme. Zuckerman then told him that the total R & D defence budget was £200 million a year – to which the American replied that this was going to be a nonstarter.
Click to expand...
Work was done on a "Blue Streak 2", but the government Refused to spend the money on development; preferring to waste money on Polaris submarines and the TSR 2. The submarines will have to be replaced! And the TSR2 is history. We "missed the boat", big time when the space program was abandoned.We would have had a share in the Billions of dollars by now, instead of rusting museum relics that are all that is left of our effort.
 
Archibald said:
Fantastic illustrations.

I started some illustrations for a book I have abandoned
Click to expand...

what would it take for the project to be dis-abandoned ? o_O

that and the BAC MUSTARD...

Can't help thinking about the Selene project :)

The Selene Project

An Act of Desperation To the casual observer, it can certainly seem odd that two nations, which between them had launched a grand total of one satellite, would agree to do something as ambitious as landing astronauts on the Moon. With the benefit of hindsight, the treaty signed by Harold...
www.alternatehistory.com
Click to expand...
I have neither the time or the will to finish the book, I have other projects that I am pursuing. I now live in Los Angeles and I can't access the research needed to complete the book.
 
DarkLord said:
I have neither the time or the will to finish the book, I have other projects that I am pursuing. I now live in Los Angeles and I can't access the research needed to complete the book.
Click to expand...

That's sad
i will try (in future) to contact BIS for a photocopy of the 14 pages report from that Spaceflight issue.
and ask if there more data of this program in BIS archive.

One question, DarkLord
You have any info or picture on fly-back Booster interstage section between first and second stage?
I'm curious how they deal Stage separation and get off the interstage section from the Aerodynamic nosecone of fly-back booster.
 
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I have a little info, but the fly-back booster was only a "paper" project. The aerodynamic nose of the booster was enclosed in a structure "mated" to the second stage, solid rockets would have been used in the separation of the 1st and 2nd stages; leaving the first stage to move away and begin descent before the Nuclear, or chemical stage, ignited! There was talk of a transtage, to leave more time for the Booster to descend. One point, the diagram of the Booster, was redesigned to allow a runway landing. The ventral and dorsal fins were abandoned early on and the profile was "fattened out" to facilitate the undercarriage, which I believe would have been similar to the U2 or B-52 configuration. There may have been some panel/flaps for lateral control in place of the ventral/dorsal fins. It would have taken years to develop and may not have suited the timetable proposed by Prof. Stewart. In the final study all the rocket engines would have been the uprated RZ 2; and the jet engines would probably been RR Avons.
 
Michel Van said:
That's sad
i will try (in future) to contact BIS for a photocopy of the 14 pages report from that Spaceflight issue.
and ask if there more data of this program in BIS archive.

One question, DarkLord
You have any info or picture on fly-back Booster interstage section between first and second stage?
I'm curious how they deal Stage separation and get off the interstage section from the Aerodynamic nosecone of fly-back booster.
Click to expand...
Hope we can read the
14 page proposal.
 
One of many areas where a more successful Britain or at least a more successful British economy might have made a difference.
Whether with the Commonwealth or Europe partners could also have been found. As other threads have mentioned France could play a different role too.
In the world of fiction we have Dan Dare and his Spacefleet or the darker version of the Graphic Novel "Ministry of Space".
Helen Sharman and Tim Peake might then have been among those to fly in British craft.
 
Don't forget the BIS' visionary pre-war lunar project, using solid fuel. In effect, a thousand or so mini-stages.
IIRC, when the first pics of the liquid-fuelled V2s' wreckage appeared, BIS re-designed their proposal in one (1) hectic weekend...

Oh, and those 'seriously tough' diver-type helmets ?
IIRC, they feared micro-meteorites...
And, yes, they were wise to do so...

Disclosure: I was BIS member from 1980 to 2003, mostly for the JBIS 'Interstellar Studies' and terraforming issues.
Then, sadly, I lost hope for crewed flight beyond LEO, never mind to Mars, or the Gas Giants and beyond...
:( :(:(
 
Nik said:
Don't forget the BIS' visionary pre-war lunar project, using solid fuel. In effect, a thousand or so mini-stages.
IIRC, when the first pics of the liquid-fuelled V2s' wreckage appeared, BIS re-designed their proposal in one (1) hectic weekend...

Oh, and those 'seriously tough' diver-type helmets ?
IIRC, they feared micro-meteorites...
And, yes, they were wise to do so...

Disclosure: I was BIS member from 1980 to 2003, mostly for the JBIS 'Interstellar Studies' and terraforming issues.
Then, sadly, I lost hope for crewed flight beyond LEO, never mind to Mars, or the Gas Giants and beyond...
:( :(:(
Click to expand...
that is sad to hear, the 2000s really were a rough spot for spaceflight. I must say I do like the post-war nuclear version more than the pre-war one, not that it has any less charm of course! Although, I do think it a bit silly that the creator of the replica BIS suit was all "diving suits, diving suits, diving suits", when pressure suits had already been heavily established as early as the 1920s.
Archibald said:
Go ahead. Make my day.
Click to expand...
I shall! Discovered on the NASA Spaceflight forums, some 9 pages in total! Apologies if some elements (the diagrams in particular) are somewhat illegible, this is due to the poor photographic skills of the original poster. However, I shall try and see if I can scrummage around and find some higher quality versions of the diagrams, so stay tuned!

image-3.png
image-5.png image-6.png image-7.png
image-8.png

image-9.png image-10.png


image-11.png image-12.png image-13.png


image-14.png image-15.png

image-16.png
image-17.png

Bon Appetit!
 

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