McDonnell-Douglas Model 265 AFTI project

overscan (PaulMM)

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
27 December 2005
Messages
17,062
Reaction score
22,570
I have this picture, of McDonnell-Douglas' Model 265, which is labelled "AFTI". Did McDonnell-Douglas submit Model 265 to the AFTI program?
 

Attachments

  • afti - amdac mcdd model 265-1 big - 01-2.jpg
    afti - amdac mcdd model 265-1 big - 01-2.jpg
    22.4 KB · Views: 4,567
overscan said:
I have this picture, of McDonnell-Douglas' Model 265, which is labelled "AFTI". Did McDonnell-Douglas submit Model 265 to the AFTI program?
Click to expand...

As I know YES ... I was searching on my harddrive and this is all I found so far, sometimes saved under a wrong designation ... but here it is:

This is from a German magazine "Flug Revue" (don't know the issue) and it states that McDD suggested two designs under the Model 265 disignation. One often labeled mod. 265-1 and another design called mod. 265-2.

I found several of both - but mostly the 265-1 !
 

Attachments

  • AFTI - AMDAC McDD model 265-1 - text .jpg
    AFTI - AMDAC McDD model 265-1 - text .jpg
    176.1 KB · Views: 2,321
  • AFTI - AMDAC McDD model 265-1 big - 01-2.jpg
    AFTI - AMDAC McDD model 265-1 big - 01-2.jpg
    22.4 KB · Views: 1,839
  • AFTI - AMDAC McDD model 265-1 big - 03.jpg
    AFTI - AMDAC McDD model 265-1 big - 03.jpg
    31.1 KB · Views: 2,820
  • AFTI - AMDAC McDD model 265-1 big - 05.jpg
    AFTI - AMDAC McDD model 265-1 big - 05.jpg
    89.7 KB · Views: 2,144
  • AFTI - AMDAC McDD studies bw.jpg
    AFTI - AMDAC McDD studies bw.jpg
    228.6 KB · Views: 1,677
The Douglas 265 has become symbol of this forum. who make the 3-d rendering of this lovely project ?
 
Hi Archibald,
The rendering on the site appears to be just a colorized version of this image that I assume was originally made by the artists at McDonnel Douglas (it's shown on the first page of this thread)
index.php
 
That's nice! I've already noticed that both pictures looked similar... I thought it was 3-D rendering (this mean that it is very well done ;))

Just a question : this plane would have been build instead of the modified
F-16 ?
 
overscan said:
I have this picture, of McDonnell-Douglas' Model 265, which is labelled "AFTI". Did McDonnell-Douglas submit Model 265 to the AFTI program?
Click to expand...

Getting back to AFTI, where can I find more info on the McDonnell-Douglas Model 265. I did a search and just came back to this thread (probably doing it wrong). It looks pretty but I don't understand it at all. I read somewhere it was a VSTOL project, how did that work? And what's with the lack of tail surfaces? I know it's got those little chin fins (like the F-16A AFTI) and a sort of beaver tail but doesn't look like an improvement to me, especially if it had an all moving wing like the similar Rockwell concept. Does the '265' have an all moving wing too? etc, etc.
Cheers, Woody
 
I think that you are searching right, in this thread is collected information about Model 265. I dont know if you saw the internal 3 view and a short description posted in reply no. 22 by Sundog. If not, this can help.
 
Supersonic Fighter Development. Roy Braybrook. Ed Haynes. 1987 ISBN 0-85429-582-8

Anyone can identify the weapons in ths drawing?

Thanks,

Antonio
 

Attachments

  • McDD Vectored Lift Fighter.jpg
    McDD Vectored Lift Fighter.jpg
    53.8 KB · Views: 896
Hello

It's the McDonnel Douglas AMDA project ,1973 .
AMDA is for advanced manoeuvring demonstrator aircraft .

Cheers

Richard
 
According to our info here it was known as the McDonnell Douglas AFTI proposal.
 
Pictures from Ebay added. Project was also called VLF - Vectored Lift Fighter.
 

Attachments

  • mdpro1.jpg
    mdpro1.jpg
    46.1 KB · Views: 1,149
  • mdpro2.jpg
    mdpro2.jpg
    45.9 KB · Views: 1,016
  • mdpro3.jpg
    mdpro3.jpg
    40.5 KB · Views: 915
  • mdpro4.jpg
    mdpro4.jpg
    49.4 KB · Views: 892
  • mdpro5.jpg
    mdpro5.jpg
    45.2 KB · Views: 977

Vectored Lift Advanced Fighter Technology Integrator

The Advanced Fighter Technology Integration (AFTI) program was conceived to provide the mechanism for orderly transfer of Air Force technology programs into operational systems. This paper presents the results of the McDonnell Aircraft Phase I AFTI study, which involved identification of high-payoff
www.sae.org www.sae.org

Interesting report.
 
It is now confirmed that the Model 265 (Vectored Lift Fighter) formed part of the agile fighter joint studies between McDonnell-Douglas and MBB. Around 1978, the two companies worked together on new fighter technologies for AFTI and TKF-90 respectively and a report was produced that year which examined the McDD VLF and the early MBB TKF-90 canard delta configuration with a view to producing a demonstrator - either a 19,000lb design with twin F404 or RB.199 engines or a 12,000lb design with twin J85s. Both the MBB and McDD designs are fitted with 3d thrust vectoring nozzles.
 
To go with Paul's comments, here are scans of drawings in two different reports I've found over at the Greater St. Louis Aviation Museum. The first one is "VLF Battlefield Fighter Development Plan" dated 15 November 1976.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Attachments

  • xVLF Model 265 Interior Arrangement.jpg
    xVLF Model 265 Interior Arrangement.jpg
    165.2 KB · Views: 957
  • xVectored Lift Fighter - 4.jpg
    xVectored Lift Fighter - 4.jpg
    183.3 KB · Views: 810
  • xVectored Lift Fighter - 3.jpg
    xVectored Lift Fighter - 3.jpg
    220.7 KB · Views: 873
  • xVectored Lift Fighter - 2.jpg
    xVectored Lift Fighter - 2.jpg
    242.1 KB · Views: 820
  • xVectored Lift Fighter - 1.jpg
    xVectored Lift Fighter - 1.jpg
    227.4 KB · Views: 781
The other report is titled "PIKT - Program to Investigate Key Technologies, Characterization of a Collaborative Fighter Technology/Experimental Aircraft Development Program for the United States and Federal Republic of Germany" dated 20 July 1978.

Question - is this the program (or a spinoff) which led to the X-31?

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Attachments

  • xPIKT - 1.jpg
    xPIKT - 1.jpg
    222.5 KB · Views: 854
  • xPIKT - 2.jpg
    xPIKT - 2.jpg
    195.9 KB · Views: 997
  • xPIKT - 3.jpg
    xPIKT - 3.jpg
    129.5 KB · Views: 948
  • xPIKT - 4.jpg
    xPIKT - 4.jpg
    202.5 KB · Views: 1,118
Not directly, for MBB it was part of their TKF-90 work which fed into the Eurofighter. However MBB's interest in thrust vectoring and post-stall continued and fed into the later program with Rockwell on the X-31.
 
Hi Nugo -

I'll share everything I find over there and scan. The museum is struggling and previous ups and downs of the museum have seen some of the collection "disappear" into the possession of others. Still, there's quite a bit there and I am able to access and scan it all and have taken on the task of cataloging and indexing it too. I am presently scanning about 40 different 9"x11" photos of various advanced concepts artwork and many of them or totally new to me. consequently, it looks like I will be posting some images in the very near future for everyone to take a crack at and see what Model or concept they are meant to represent. Stay tuned....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
Model 265 was a variable incidence wing concept invented by Don Scheller of McDonnell Aircraft St. Louis. It predated the USAF AFTI program by several years. The USAF rejected the model 265 (there were perhaps 25 or so different configuration integrations) and the AFTI project resulted. MDC St. Louis proposed the AFTI-15, a variable incidence F-15. The final configuration was a three surface F-15 the eventually became the integrated aero-propulsion control demonstrator. The only as to get pilots to fly the variable incidence wing aircraft would have been to black out the canopy and fly by instruments with synthetic vision.
 
Greetings All -

Here's some McAir artwork to go along with the Vectored Lift Fighter concept....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Attachments

  • xD4C-106428 Nov-76.jpg
    xD4C-106428 Nov-76.jpg
    89.6 KB · Views: 850
  • xD4C-73862 Jun-70.jpg
    xD4C-73862 Jun-70.jpg
    163.1 KB · Views: 3,400
  • xD4C-105032 May-73.jpg
    xD4C-105032 May-73.jpg
    226.1 KB · Views: 840
  • xD4C-117091-1 Apr-76.jpg
    xD4C-117091-1 Apr-76.jpg
    127.4 KB · Views: 860
overscan said:
Pictures from Ebay added. Project was also called VLF - Vectored Lift Fighter.
Click to expand...
This was a transonic demonstrator aircraft proposed to demonstrate the basic principles of the vectored incidence wing with the fuselage beavertail control surface for trim. the fundamental concept was that the fuselage could be aimed about plus or minus 15 degrees without changing the flight path angle or the fuselage could remain on track while the wings angle of attack was increased to maintain track. The real sticking point came in ground attack when the flight path was level and the nose pitched down to maintain track on the target. Pilots have only the fuselage angle to estimate flight path so they IMMEDIATELY broke of the attack as they assumed they were flying at the ground not level. There were full scale operationally sized supersonic configurations as well as transonic concepts. It was a really unique concept that went against all of the status quo thinkers and macho pilots who did not need automatics.
 
overscan said:
It is now confirmed that the Model 265 (Vectored Lift Fighter) formed part of the agile fighter joint studies between McDonnell-Douglas and MBB. Around 1978, the two companies worked together on new fighter technologies for AFTI and TKF-90 respectively and a report was produced that year which examined the McDD VLF and the early MBB TKF-90 canard delta configuration with a view to producing a demonstrator - either a 19,000lb design with twin F404 or RB.199 engines or a 12,000lb design with twin J85s. Both the MBB and McDD designs are fitted with 3d thrust vectoring nozzles.
Click to expand...
A German team headed by Wolfgang Herbst was hired to assist in a STOL fighter competition that stayed on to develop the CADE Computer Aided Design Evaluation concept. Wolfgang was a close in maneuvering combat advocate with high angle of attack, thrust supported, off angle shots. When the team returned to Germany he concentrated on high angle of attack, slow maneuvering combat. On result was the Rockwell X-31 and the configuration of the Eurofighter. To my knowledge he never advocated the VLF concept
 
Archibald said:
The Douglas 265 has become symbol of this forum. who make the 3-d rendering of this lovely project ?
Click to expand...
Most of these isometric renderings were hand drawn by a single individual with an uncanny skill to look at a 3-view and sketch the result free hand. He unfortunately had a problem that after a long number of years made his employment difficult and so there was no one ever to replace him except unemotional computer graphics.
 
Woody said:
overscan said:
I have this picture, of McDonnell-Douglas' Model 265, which is labelled "AFTI". Did McDonnell-Douglas submit Model 265 to the AFTI program?
Click to expand...

Getting back to AFTI, where can I find more info on the McDonnell-Douglas Model 265. I did a search and just came back to this thread (probably doing it wrong). It looks pretty but I don't understand it at all. I read somewhere it was a VSTOL project, how did that work? And what's with the lack of tail surfaces? I know it's got those little chin fins (like the F-16A AFTI) and a sort of beaver tail but doesn't look like an improvement to me, especially if it had an all moving wing like the similar Rockwell concept. Does the '265' have an all moving wing too? etc, etc.

Cheers, Woody
Click to expand...


Sorry guys, these concepts predated your references by over a decade. It is they who copied us!!!!
 
To all:

It is MDC, McDonnell Douglas Corporation, or McAir McDonnell Aircraft Company NOT McDD. The later was a real sore point with Sandy.
 
According to the report, Herbst was in charge of the MBB TKF-90 work and was hence jointly responsible for the PIKT study which was investigating key technologies for what the report dubs "NATO-90". MBB's team contributed their TKF-90 work, MDC their Model 265 work.

Of course, Herbst was no stranger to MDC having worked there on the FX (F-15) program from 1966-1970.
 
Thanks for that insight Hypertech - I'll be sure NOT to reference it that way in the future.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
Model 265 patent:

US3870253A - Aircraft vectored flight control means - Google Patents

An aircraft of either stable or unstable configuration having all movable wing tip surfaces for rapid increases in lift and subsequent aircraft longitudinal pitch control results from positioning of the wing tip surfaces for positive pitching moments which are then trimmed by trailing edge...
www.google.com

Credited to Donald Scheller and William Leidy.
 
Good Day All -

I found some more artwork over at the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum that is worth sharing.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Attachments

  • xD4C-117534-3 Apr-77.jpg
    xD4C-117534-3 Apr-77.jpg
    99.6 KB · Views: 1,164
  • xD4E-591093-2 Jan-77.jpg
    xD4E-591093-2 Jan-77.jpg
    147.1 KB · Views: 1,204
  • xD4E-591210-2 Nov-77.jpg
    xD4E-591210-2 Nov-77.jpg
    166.3 KB · Views: 1,910
Is that a GAU-8 in the wing root or something even larger calibre? And on the tandem cockpit design it looks like the gun might be movable?
 
Looks like a variable incidence wing to me, allowing the fuselage with the gun to be
pointed downwards, while the aircraft is still in level flight.
 
Indeed, it is the same aerodynamic layout as the Vectored Lift Fighter, Model 265. However in the tandem cockpit pic the gun barrel seems to be away from the fuselage.
 
overscan said:
Cool! Seems to be a two seat close air support design using Model 265 aerodynamics.
Click to expand...

It’s a quirky looker and that big flat belly and offset intakes could make for an easy evolution into a low RCS strike aircraft. The side by side appears to have a FLIR/LD ball under the fuselage which would also enable PGM use for battlefield air interdiction roles. Looks big enough for plenty of fuel for flying 2,000 NM BAI missions. Combining CAS and BAI always made sense to me as it allows you to swing the fleet in accordance with the progress of the campaign.

I'm not sure about the gun being a GAU-8 as this is a pretty wide weapon. Certainly has a hell of a muzzle device and could be a Oerlikon KCB or a GAU-13 30mm. If the tandem seat mount is trainable it would only have a limited train like on the HOKUM but this is still very significant for ground attack as it considerably increases accuracy and allows for level flight strafing for those long columns of enemy trucks...
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom