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TinWing

TinWing

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The below artwork came from an early 90s Aermacchi advertisement in AW&ST.

MysterySupersonicTrainer.jpg


What is it?

It appears to be a supersonic advanced trainer.

The advertisement featured similar illustrations of the MB-339 and AMX, and there was a reference to a "international military program" referred to as "PTS 2000."

Google gave me this excerpt from an AIAA article:

Paolo Mezzanotte said:
The PTS-2000 (for Pilots Training System 2000) was proposed by Aermacchi of Italy, joined by Dornier and MBB of Germany.
Click to expand...

http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=7494

I don't know whether the article has any more information, or even images.

Does anyone know anything more?
 

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Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?

Drawing from another Aermacchi Ad
 

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Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?

Ok, it took a while, and I'm convinced I have a lot of other material reagrding this topic. the problem is to find it.
Anyway, this is the story. After Aeronautica Militare chose the MB-339 design for an advanced trainer (the other was the more interesting MB-338), Bazzocchi started to think on a successor. In 1985 he drafted the AT-X2 (frst image), a canard delta with lateral intakes. Recognizing the potential of the aircraft Bazzocchi evolved in 1986 it in a advanced supersonic trainer (a new Talon) the AT-X2A, first with a middle wing, side intakes (second image), and then exploring a low wing, ventral intake configuration (a small EFA ;) or EAP or the hell the project was named back then),. You see it in the third image. Finally, in 1987, tha configuration returned to the middle wing, lateral intakes, and was named ATX (echoing the AMX). All those project were canard configurations. This projects were frozen for lack of interest. Bazzocchi retired and in middle-to-late 1990's In late '80s Aermacchi entered an agreement with Dornier to develop an advanced trainer for European air forces, capable to merge in one aircraft the advanced phase and the pre-operational one (this is normally done on two seat versions of supersonic first line aircraft and introduce the pupil to supersonic flight etc. muinus the combat and specific first-line features).
This is the PTS-2000, an evolution of the ATX minus the canard and with a larger wing.
 

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Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?

Skybolt said:
Ok, it took a while, and I'm convinced I have a lot of other material reagrding this topic. the problem is to find it.
Anyway, this is the story. After Aeronautica Militare chose the MB-339 design for an advanced trainer (the other was the more interesting MB-338), Bazzocchi started to think on a successor. In 1985 he drafted the AT-X2 (frst image), a canard delta with lateral intakes. Recognizing the potential of the aircraft Bazzocchi evolved in 1986 it in a advanced supersonic trainer (a new Talon) the AT-X2A, first with a middle wing, side intakes (second image), and then exploring a low wing, ventral intake configuration (a small EFA ;) or EAP or the hell the project was named back then),. You see it in the third image. Finally, in 1987, tha configuration returned to the middle wing, lateral intakes, and was named ATX (echoing the AMX). All those project were canard configurations. This projects were frozen for lack of interest. Bazzocchi retired and in middle-to-late 1990's In late '80s Aermacchi entered an agreement with Dornier to develop an advanced trainer for European air forces, capable to merge in one aircraft the advanced phase and the pre-operational one (this is normally done on two seat versions of supersonic first line aircraft and introduce the pupil to supersonic flight etc. muinus the combat and specific first-line features).
This is the PTS-2000, an evolution of the ATX minus the canard and with a larger wing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your amazing response.

I have read a little about various proposals that preceded the MB-339, and I have the impression that the final Viper engined configuration was chose over an Adour engined alternative. I have never even heard of the MB-338 designation?

The ATX is entirely new to me. I would assume that the F404 was intended, although the intake area looks a bit too small. I get the feeling that this proposal is smaller than the contemporary Gripen. Do you have any other details?
 
Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?

The MB-338 was high-wing, and produced a series of derivative (or so) designs, like the ligjht CAS MB-341, an ancestor of the AMX.
As for the engine of the ATX, I'll find.
 
Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?


Any illustration or 3 view?

Raravia
 
Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?

M.B.338V from "Gente dell'aria" volume 3
 

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Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?

"The MB.338A basic/advanced trainer project. Powerplant would have been a Rolls-Royce/Turbomeca Adour - as used in the Hawk." (Caption from "AIR Enthusiast" No. 51 (page 35 / COPYRIGHT: Aermacchi via Roy Braybrook)
 

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Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?

M.B.341, also from "Gente dell'aria" volume 3 (Caption: "Disegno dell'MB-341, in cui sono evidenziati gli impianti di bordo.")
 

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Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?

Model picture of M.B.341B (Source: "Gente dell'aria" volume 3/caption: "Modello del bireattore canard per l'addestramento avanzato MB-341 B del 1982.")
 

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Re: Aermacchi Supersonic Trainer? PTS 2000? Before the M-346 and Mako?



Thank you Boxkite!

Great pictures.

Raravia
 
I've seen references to a MB-340 CAS aircraft that was said to resemble a smaller A-10 and powered by two M45H engines like the HFB 614 used.
 
Here it is, Sir! Not much A-10... More a high-wing A-9... ;D 1975
AMX derived more or less directly from this one. Brazil and South Africa were very interesed, and SA went all along till a minute before signing the contract, but at the eleventh hour it changed its mind. Later AMI drafted its CBR-80 speification on the MB-340 but kept in adding thngs, so the weight went up and up, and then we have the AMX... ::)

This particular image comes from a now defunct Italian magazine. Yu can find it in the above mentioned "Gente dell'Aria" volume, also.
 

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Let us not forget the MB-328, -329, and -330 series of business aircraft. The last-named would be the easiest to model from a 1/48 MB.326/339 kit and the 1/48 Testor's/IMC Lear 23/24. Modelling either of the other two would require the engines and nacelles from a Pucara, or other Astazou-powered aircraft.
 
The last-named would be the easiest to model from a 1/48 MB.326/339 kit and the 1/48 Testor's/IMC Lear 23/24. Modelling either of the other two would require the engines and nacelles from a Pucara, or other Astazou-powered aircraft.
Click to expand...

You advanced and experienced modellers always put "Nip and Tuck" ashame... :D
Not to mention "Dr. Moreau's island".. ;D
 
For those, who have no access to M.B.330 drawings, here come two different layouts, the M.B.330 and the M.B.330B.

M.B.330.gif & M.B.330.jpg => “Der Flieger“ 11/1964 (page 278)

M.B.330B.gif => ”The MB.330B business jet, one of several [is this a reference to the M.B.328 and M.B.329?] Aermacchi studies in this area.“ / “AIR Enthusiast” No. 51 (page 35) / COPYRIGHT: Aermacchi via Roy Braybrook

Can anybody help with illustrations of the M.B.328 and M.B.329?

Btw, AE # 51 shows two different concepts of the Aermacchi M.B.334 regional aircraft, one is more conventional with rear jet engines, the other one is equipped with pusher turboprops on both sides of the rear fuselage.
 

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MB.328 and MB.329 were twin-turboprop business aircraft. The MB.328 had them on the wing while the MB.329 had them mounted on the aft fuselage. I know that there are drawings of these out there, either in a back issue of Aerofan or in a book covering Aermacchi aircraft.
 
Complementary to Skybolt's reply#12 in page 1

Source:
Arriva il SABA, l'anti-elicottero by Gianni Cortese
Volare (Italian Aviation Magazine)

Refered in the article as the Italian SABA, a misterious project numbered MB-340 is described.
The MB340 work was later applied in the development of the AMX.
This is a conceptual drawing from Gianfranco Rotondi and originaly published by Air Press. It seems to be one of the concepts from the MB340 family of designs.
 

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mmmm, I suspect Gianni Cortese made things up a little bit... the MB-340 was a CAS, never intended AS A DESIGN for the anti-chopper role... Every light CAS, with their low stall speed and agility, can naturally be used as a SABA, even A-10 are... Bur Aermacchi wasn't so fool to design such a specialized aircraft back then, and there was no requirement by the Aeronautica Militare for that matter.
Think what a wonderful SABA would have been the C22J ... 8)
 
First dozen is for the MB-340...
1) Basic
2) Different intakes
3) Ventral intake
4) Two-engines, F-15-style tail
 

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5) Two engine, T-Tail, CAS
6) V-tail
7) RB199 engine w/out afterburner (the way to go...)
8 ) Spey engine (sigh...)
 

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9) MB-340/2 CAS RB199 engine
10) MB-340/3 CAS TF34 engine
11) MB-340/3 antiship
12) MB-340/3 two-place
 

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I've seen references to a MB-340 CAS aircraft that was said to resemble a smaller A-10 and powered by two M45H engines like the HFB 614 used.
Click to expand...

Elm, this beast existed but wasn't in the MB-340 series, it came earlier and was fashioned for a foreign country. And yes, one of the design iteration was very similar to the A-10.
 
And, no, I didn't forget the MB-341. Only, it has a very interesting evolution, so I'll keep for a separate topic. For now, a 3-view of the initial configuration. It was a CAS, at least for the first iterations, then...

And, BTW, if you are thinking that the MB-340 and 341 pictures you are seeing are posted here for the first time ever in any published souerce, well, you are perfectly right.. 8) ;D
 

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Skybolt, I think your work deserves a full article in Air Enthusiast. Very interesting to see something of projects in Italy: my collection didn't even have an Italy folder until your posts.

THANKS!
 
Sure, let's return to the MB-328, MB-329, MB-330 line... ;)
 

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Thanks Overscan, but I'm relatively far from being able to do something serious about Macchi's projects, since I for now have only pictures and 3-views... Dimensions can be inferred, but weight, performances, engines (in most cases) and whereabouts of the design are unknown or very poorly known... For SIAI Marchetti that's different, by the way...
 
From what I've read, MB.328 and MB.329 used Astazou turboprops while MB.330 used CJ-610, same as Learjet. If you figure they all basically used the MB.326 wing (a valid assumption given the structural breakdown of the MB.326), it should be reasonably easy to determine basic dimensions.
 
Actually, dimensions are easy: perhaps they are not visible at 72 DPI, but the designs I have are GAs with quotes. Problems is weight, performances and reasons why (excluding engines)
 
You advanced and experienced modellers always put "Nip and Tuck" ashame... :D
Not to mention "Dr. Moreau's island".. ;D
[/quote]

Are we not modelers?
 
Is any friend in possession of any picture of the Aermacchi MB-340 proposed strike fighter ( probably early 70s'...)
Thanks in advance and...

Regards from

Giorgio (Turin-Italy)
 
Hallo,

anybody have technical data for the M.B.340 and the M.B.341???

Thanks

Servus Maveric
 

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