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New topic for PAK-FA discussions.
Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part II [2008-2009]
- Thread starter overscan (PaulMM)
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Lets start with a link to Paralay's PAK-FA speculation
He's got so many different designs there, he's bound to be at least partly correct
He's got so many different designs there, he's bound to be at least partly correct
Source: «Коммерсантъ»
Alisa Gritskova, Elena Kiselyov
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc-y.aspx?DocsID=1056516
13.11.2008, 12:12
Does "Creation of a battalion of fighting aircraft ОАК" mean "the project of an easy front fighter of the fifth generation"?
Alisa Gritskova, Elena Kiselyov
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc-y.aspx?DocsID=1056516
13.11.2008, 12:12
Does "Creation of a battalion of fighting aircraft ОАК" mean "the project of an easy front fighter of the fifth generation"?
A better translation is:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aviaport.ru%2Fdigest%2F2008%2F11%2F13%2F161054.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en
And also here KLA is an unknown word for me.It can be light fifth generation aircraft.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aviaport.ru%2Fdigest%2F2008%2F11%2F13%2F161054.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en
And also here KLA is an unknown word for me.It can be light fifth generation aircraft.
Avimimus
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overscan said:Lets start with a link to Paralay's PAK-FA speculation
He's got so many different designs there, he's bound to be at least partly correct
So true - and it is definitely to his credit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA
Will Russia and Brazil sign the deal for the joint development and production of PAK-FA at Medvedev's visit to the Brazil?
Is there any formal information about this news?And is Brazil formally in this project?
Will Russia and Brazil sign the deal for the joint development and production of PAK-FA at Medvedev's visit to the Brazil?
Is there any formal information about this news?And is Brazil formally in this project?
medal64 said:
Nothing is being said about PAK-FA here on Brazil(not exactly nothing; but nothing that can be considered reasonable grounds to expect PAK-FA). The Brazilian Air Force and Navy don't have a good opinion of Russian dealers, and the French have better lobbyists here.
paralay
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Pepe Rezende
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medal64 said:
Unhappily not. Brazilian Air Force selects Rafale F3, F/A-18E/F and Gripen NG to RFP phase, in my opinion a stupid decision cause Gripen NG is only a demonstrator. T-50 was offered as a Su35BM technological offset.
Cheers
Pepe
flateric said:
The Brazilian Navy sent some people to Sevastopol, just initial contacts for a possible Lada/Amur deal. So, they ask basic questions:
- What is the maximum operational depth of the Amur class?
- Why do you wish to know this?
- ... Well, we are going to operate the submarine.
- You are not cleared for this information.
After a few more minutes of similar conversations, the reunion ended, and the Brazilian Navy decided not to buy the Amur, or any Russian hardware, for that matter. I'm not aware of what is the Air Force's problem with the Russians, although I have some guesses.
Pepe Rezende
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gral_rj said:
First of all, the meeting was at Saint Petersbourg. Second, this conversation was denied by the Brazilian admiral that was at the meeting. It was a clearly biassed story to undermine Russian proposal. Some Brazilian Navy officers that was at the meeting also said Russian have no English speaking interpreter to translate questions and answers. In that point they were right. One friend of mine, from Rosoboronexport, that speaks a fantastic Portuguese was there.
I'm Janes Defence Weekly correspondent in Brazil and I'm allways amazed by some perjudice against Russian products at Brazilian forums.
Pepe
Pepe Rezende said:
I don't know why I thought it was Sevastopol instead of St. Petersburg. As for the conversation, you've probably seen it at the same place I have(Fórum Defesa Brasil), since you hang out at the same board(wasn't sure you were the same Pepe before). The guy that posted the story is, at least to me, a reliable source(of course, if you know someone who was there, I stand corrected).
As for the prejudice against Russian hardware, I agree with you. Myself, I'm wary of Russian sales support(maintenance and so on), but the hardware works just fine.
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T-50 said:
At CGI? maybe?...
Paralay can you tell me if this image http://paralay.com/t50/s56+.jpg , is a real concept or just another speculation? thanks
What about the Mig "pakfa" anyone knows how it looks like?, and what about some "leaks" saying the pakfa will look more like the "black widow"?, i remember was an image of a berkut with some kind of F-5 wings, wonder if the Pakfa will use that layout (the wings).
Pepe Rezende
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gral_rj said:
The same guy denied the conversation after that. The meeting was at Rubin shipyard at Saint Petersbourg. The Navy guys just didn't wanted Russian equipment and manipulated the conversation at the forums. Three friends of mine, including two Brazilian Embassy diplomats and the Rosoboronexport interpreter, was there and they denied the dialogue. What the Russian said was that the information was available at the brochure.
Pepe
paralay
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Spring said:
It is unknown. :'(
The lightweight fighter of the 5th generation will be created on the base of the technologies of the heavy promising destroyer
MOSCOW, on 16 April. (ARMS- TASS). The lightweight fighter of the 5th generation will be created on the base of the technologies of heavy promising destroyer (tonics. in Fig. to the right), developed at present, reported korr.ARMS- TASS the President of the united aircraft construction corporation (OAK) Aleksey Fedorov, who visited the 10th international salon"engines 2008".
"today in Russia all financial, intellectual, technical and production resources of the aircraft industry are concentrated on the program of the creation of the heavy destroyer of the 5th generation. We cannot pulverize them and must complete this program. Only after this it is possible to examine a question about the creation of light promising destroyer on the base of the obtained technologies ", it noted A.Fedorov.the pack -fa
According to him, to the moment of making a decision about the creation of light promising destroyer for the market will be proposed the destroyer MiG-35 (in the photograph below to the left), in which some technologies of the 5th generation are already today realized, including onboard radar with the impulse phased antenna cascade.
MiG-35 In the opinion of the leader OF OAK, Russia with the creation of the destroyers of the 5th generation, obviously, will go by that way, by which go the United States. Was there first created the heavy destroyer F -22 Of "reptor", and then on the base of its technologies began to be created lightweight fighter F -35 "the Lightning -2", which has the higher export capabilities.
MOSCOW, on 16 April. (Korr.ARMS- TASS). The Air Force of Russia do not plan in the immediate future to adopt for military service the lightweight fighter of the 5th generation.
MOSCOW, on 16 April. (ARMS- TASS). The lightweight fighter of the 5th generation will be created on the base of the technologies of heavy promising destroyer (tonics. in Fig. to the right), developed at present, reported korr.ARMS- TASS the President of the united aircraft construction corporation (OAK) Aleksey Fedorov, who visited the 10th international salon"engines 2008".
"today in Russia all financial, intellectual, technical and production resources of the aircraft industry are concentrated on the program of the creation of the heavy destroyer of the 5th generation. We cannot pulverize them and must complete this program. Only after this it is possible to examine a question about the creation of light promising destroyer on the base of the obtained technologies ", it noted A.Fedorov.the pack -fa
According to him, to the moment of making a decision about the creation of light promising destroyer for the market will be proposed the destroyer MiG-35 (in the photograph below to the left), in which some technologies of the 5th generation are already today realized, including onboard radar with the impulse phased antenna cascade.
MiG-35 In the opinion of the leader OF OAK, Russia with the creation of the destroyers of the 5th generation, obviously, will go by that way, by which go the United States. Was there first created the heavy destroyer F -22 Of "reptor", and then on the base of its technologies began to be created lightweight fighter F -35 "the Lightning -2", which has the higher export capabilities.
MOSCOW, on 16 April. (Korr.ARMS- TASS). The Air Force of Russia do not plan in the immediate future to adopt for military service the lightweight fighter of the 5th generation.
Almost I read Russia and Brazil didnt sign any agreements about the Pak fa and the other military issues!Im suprised because at all news (ria novosti) it was saying they will sign intergovermental military agreements and also oil and gas agreements.Maybe I missed
something
something
At Komsomol factory "Sukhoi" have summed up competition of projects on perfection of manufacture with use of lean-technologies
На комсомольском заводе «Сухого» подвели итоги конкурса проектов по совершенствованию производства с использованием lean-технологий
Moscow, on November, 11th. The presentation of competitive projects on perfection of industrial system of company "Dry" with use of tools economical manufacture has passed in Komsomol-on-cupid aviation industrial association of a name of J.A.Gagarina »(КнААПО). The order on competition carrying out at the holding enterprises has been signed in September by general director АХК"Dry"Michael Pogosjanom.
Competition is spent to two stages. The first – at each enterprise of holding and final – in the head company among the best works which have been selected by the competitive commissions on places. Projects are estimated by such criteria as reduction of time of a cycle of manufacture, reception by the company of the additional profit received from realisation of the given project, labour input decrease, материалоемкости and power consumption.
To jury KnAaPo it has been presented eight works, aimed at perfection of process of building of the regional plane «Dry Superdzhet 100» (SSJ 100) and a fighter of the fifth generation. The competitive commission has selected from them four best. The first place the project «the Organization механообрабатывающего has occupied manufactures on manufacturing of aluminium details for SSJ 100», the second – «Assemblage пилона SSJ 100» and «beam Manufacturing пилона SSJ 100». On the third position there were two works - «Manufacturing of cable network SSJ 100» and «Assemblage центроплана a fighter of the fifth generation». They are directed to the head company where they in the end of the year will be considered by a commission of experts of company "Dry" which will define winners.
In position about competition carrying out encouragement of participants of competition is provided. Working group, whose project has won first place, will receive the award at the rate to 2 million roubles. For the second place it will be paid 1,25 million rbl. of 700 thousand rbl. will pay to developers of the project which has taken of the third position. The caused most a stir participants of working groups who become further curators and instructors at the enterprises for introduction of principles of economical manufacture, will be directed for an exchange of experience for the aviabuilding enterprises of the USA (1 place), Europe (2 place) and Russia (3 place). Besides, workers, whose projects have been put forward on competition, have prospect картерного growth, increase in the salary or an establishment of the personal extra charge.
The program "Dry" on technology introduction «economical manufacture» (LEAN-technology) is realised in all structures of the company. Its purpose is increase of a production efficiency and its planning on the basis of use of modern techniques, preparation of factories for certification for participation in the international cooperation in the field of aircraft engineering, optimisation of process of purchase of the equipment, minimisation of labour and time expenses. Training to Lean-management only this year there have passed tens heads and employees of holding of different level.
Today the company masters new modern kinds of production – the regional plane «Dry Superdzhet 100», the newest multipurpose fighter Su-35 and a fighter of the fifth generation. Necessity of introduction of the advanced methods of the organisation of manufacture is dictated by a rigid competition in the aircraft engineering world market.
Source:www.sukhoi.org
Date:11.11.2009
The news have been changed.The new one is here!Maybe something is going wrong!
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fsukhoi.org&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en
На комсомольском заводе «Сухого» подвели итоги конкурса проектов по совершенствованию производства с использованием lean-технологий
Moscow, on November, 11th. The presentation of competitive projects on perfection of industrial system of company "Dry" with use of tools economical manufacture has passed in Komsomol-on-cupid aviation industrial association of a name of J.A.Gagarina »(КнААПО). The order on competition carrying out at the holding enterprises has been signed in September by general director АХК"Dry"Michael Pogosjanom.
Competition is spent to two stages. The first – at each enterprise of holding and final – in the head company among the best works which have been selected by the competitive commissions on places. Projects are estimated by such criteria as reduction of time of a cycle of manufacture, reception by the company of the additional profit received from realisation of the given project, labour input decrease, материалоемкости and power consumption.
To jury KnAaPo it has been presented eight works, aimed at perfection of process of building of the regional plane «Dry Superdzhet 100» (SSJ 100) and a fighter of the fifth generation. The competitive commission has selected from them four best. The first place the project «the Organization механообрабатывающего has occupied manufactures on manufacturing of aluminium details for SSJ 100», the second – «Assemblage пилона SSJ 100» and «beam Manufacturing пилона SSJ 100». On the third position there were two works - «Manufacturing of cable network SSJ 100» and «Assemblage центроплана a fighter of the fifth generation». They are directed to the head company where they in the end of the year will be considered by a commission of experts of company "Dry" which will define winners.
In position about competition carrying out encouragement of participants of competition is provided. Working group, whose project has won first place, will receive the award at the rate to 2 million roubles. For the second place it will be paid 1,25 million rbl. of 700 thousand rbl. will pay to developers of the project which has taken of the third position. The caused most a stir participants of working groups who become further curators and instructors at the enterprises for introduction of principles of economical manufacture, will be directed for an exchange of experience for the aviabuilding enterprises of the USA (1 place), Europe (2 place) and Russia (3 place). Besides, workers, whose projects have been put forward on competition, have prospect картерного growth, increase in the salary or an establishment of the personal extra charge.
The program "Dry" on technology introduction «economical manufacture» (LEAN-technology) is realised in all structures of the company. Its purpose is increase of a production efficiency and its planning on the basis of use of modern techniques, preparation of factories for certification for participation in the international cooperation in the field of aircraft engineering, optimisation of process of purchase of the equipment, minimisation of labour and time expenses. Training to Lean-management only this year there have passed tens heads and employees of holding of different level.
Today the company masters new modern kinds of production – the regional plane «Dry Superdzhet 100», the newest multipurpose fighter Su-35 and a fighter of the fifth generation. Necessity of introduction of the advanced methods of the organisation of manufacture is dictated by a rigid competition in the aircraft engineering world market.
Source:www.sukhoi.org
Date:11.11.2009
The news have been changed.The new one is here!Maybe something is going wrong!
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fsukhoi.org&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en
Press conference of a management of Open Society "КнААПО"
27.11.2008
On November, 28th in Open Society "КнААПО" Expocentre press conference of heads объеденения for representatives of regional mass-media will take place. We bring to your attention the press release which will be extended to the conferences, outlining the basic themes of forthcoming dialogue.
Open Society "КнААПО"
The open Joint-stock company «the Komsomol-on-cupid aviation production association of J.A.Gagarina» is leading enterprise of aviation holding company "Dry". Throughout the 70-year-old history the enterprise makes in commonwealth with leading KB of Russia the aviation technics of military and civil appointment.
In 1996 the Decree of the President of Russian Federation ФГУП of "KnAaPo" was a part of the State unitary enterprise "АВПК" Dry ». In December, 2002 ФГУП"KnAaPo"it has been transformed to Open Society" КнААПО ". In October, 2003 process of reforming of State Unitary Enterprise" АВПК "Dry» in vertically integrated aviabuilding holding of Open Society "Company" Dry »which included Open Societies" КнААПО ", Open Society" НАПО "and other companies has come to the end.
Since 1936, such widely known planes have descended from factory building berths as scout-bomber Р-6 (АНТ-7), bombers ДБ-3Б and Il-4, transport plane Li-2 (DC-3 Douglas), the first jet fighters MiG-15 and MiG-17, supersonic front fighters Su-7 and Su-17.
Since 1964 deliveries of planes of mark "Sou" to export have begun. More than 2000 planes Su-7, Su-20, and Su-27 of various updatings have been put Su-22 in 22 countries of the world.
From the middle of 1980th years the fighter of the fourth generation Su-27 and its updatings making today a basis of park of fighting aircraft of the Air Forces of the Russian Federation and of some the foreign states became the basic production of Open Society "КнААПО".
For the short period of time of Open Society "КнААПО" in commonwealth from Open Society «ОКБ Dry» has developed and has started serial release on the basis of variety of new planes of mark "Sou", among them: Су-27СК and Su-27SkM – a fighter of a gain of domination in air and its deep modernisation, Su-30Mk2 – a double multi-purpose fighter, Su-33 – a ship fighter and a number of other updatings.
Today Open Society "КнААПО" together with Open Society «ОКБ Dry» conducts works on creation of the multipurpose supermaneuverable fighter Su-35, called to become by transitive plane on a way to a fighter of the fifth generation. Plane Su-35 is created on the basis of the technical decisions used by working out of the plane of the fifth generation, taking into account operating experience of family of multi-purpose planes
Су-30МК2. Су-35 has possibility of application of all nomenclature of existing and perspective samples of aviation arms of a class "air-air" and "air-surface", including the high-precision. The first skilled planes Su-35 pass flight tests in Open Society «ОКБ Dry».
The success in the world market planes of the type Su-27 possessing unique characteristics and possibilities, are in many respects obliged not only the magnificent design created by a branch science, but also high scientific and technical and industrial potential of Open Society "КнААПО".
Throughout all activity by one of priority directions of activity performance of works under the State defensive order the basic amount of works on which now is carrying out of repair and modernisation of planes Su-27 of the Air Forces of the Russian Federation in a variant of Su-27Sm which are already successfully maintained the Air Forces of the Russian Federation is.
The great value of Open Society "КнААПО" gives not only to manufacture and repair of military aviation technics, but also development of programs of aviation technics of civil appointment. Within the limits of a manufacture diversification in the early nineties Open Society "КнААПО" has started works on working out and start in manufacture of civil planes. Among them easy amphibian Be-103 and the passenger-and-freight plane for local and regional airlines Su-80Gp.
Now prospects of the development of Open Society "КнААПО" connects with the program of the new regional plane Sukhoi Superjet-100 which creation is carried out in the union from Joint-Stock Company «Civil planes Dry» and Open Society "НАПО". Open Society "КнААПО" is defined by the manufacturer in interfactory cooperation of a fuselage, ОЧК and пилона planes.
On September, 26th, 2007 in territory of branch of Joint-Stock Company "ГСС" in Komsomolske-on-cupid have passed the solemn actions devoted выкатке first flight plane Sukhoi Superjet-100. The first flight of plane Sukhoi on May, 19th, 2008 has taken place
Superjet-100. In October, 2008 the plane has finished in On a stage honing factory test, having received from the Aviation register of Interstate aviation committee of Russia the experimental certificate of the flight validity. Further it expects 600 certified flights which will pass in Zhukovsky.
Realisation of the program of regional plane Sukhoi Superjet-100 will allow to finish a share of let out aviation technics of civil appointment to Open Society "КнААПО" to 50 %.
Within the limits of preparation of association for manufacture of new kinds of aviation technics of Open Society "КнААПО" carries out reconstruction of industrial targets, modernisation and equipment modernisation.
System of a quality management of Open Society "КнААПО" in 2007 ресертифицирована in system of voluntary certification of "Oboronsertifika". The received certificates certify conformity СМК Open Society "КнААПО" to requirements of GOST Р ИСО 9001-2001, GOST РВ 15.002 and standards of a series of SRPP ВТ. In 2008 the German body on certification DAR/TGA gives out the certificate of conformity of system of a quality management to requirements of the international aerospace standards of series AS/EN 9100 and Open Society "КНААПО" is brought in a database “OASIS” the international group of aviation quality (IAQG).
Work spent by Open Society "КнААПО" on equipment by the newest process equipment will allow and to let out further production corresponding to modern requirements of world level.
Its getting diffucult to find any new news about the PAK FA.Even at the Knaapo press conference!
27.11.2008
On November, 28th in Open Society "КнААПО" Expocentre press conference of heads объеденения for representatives of regional mass-media will take place. We bring to your attention the press release which will be extended to the conferences, outlining the basic themes of forthcoming dialogue.
Open Society "КнААПО"
The open Joint-stock company «the Komsomol-on-cupid aviation production association of J.A.Gagarina» is leading enterprise of aviation holding company "Dry". Throughout the 70-year-old history the enterprise makes in commonwealth with leading KB of Russia the aviation technics of military and civil appointment.
In 1996 the Decree of the President of Russian Federation ФГУП of "KnAaPo" was a part of the State unitary enterprise "АВПК" Dry ». In December, 2002 ФГУП"KnAaPo"it has been transformed to Open Society" КнААПО ". In October, 2003 process of reforming of State Unitary Enterprise" АВПК "Dry» in vertically integrated aviabuilding holding of Open Society "Company" Dry »which included Open Societies" КнААПО ", Open Society" НАПО "and other companies has come to the end.
Since 1936, such widely known planes have descended from factory building berths as scout-bomber Р-6 (АНТ-7), bombers ДБ-3Б and Il-4, transport plane Li-2 (DC-3 Douglas), the first jet fighters MiG-15 and MiG-17, supersonic front fighters Su-7 and Su-17.
Since 1964 deliveries of planes of mark "Sou" to export have begun. More than 2000 planes Su-7, Su-20, and Su-27 of various updatings have been put Su-22 in 22 countries of the world.
From the middle of 1980th years the fighter of the fourth generation Su-27 and its updatings making today a basis of park of fighting aircraft of the Air Forces of the Russian Federation and of some the foreign states became the basic production of Open Society "КнААПО".
For the short period of time of Open Society "КнААПО" in commonwealth from Open Society «ОКБ Dry» has developed and has started serial release on the basis of variety of new planes of mark "Sou", among them: Су-27СК and Su-27SkM – a fighter of a gain of domination in air and its deep modernisation, Su-30Mk2 – a double multi-purpose fighter, Su-33 – a ship fighter and a number of other updatings.
Today Open Society "КнААПО" together with Open Society «ОКБ Dry» conducts works on creation of the multipurpose supermaneuverable fighter Su-35, called to become by transitive plane on a way to a fighter of the fifth generation. Plane Su-35 is created on the basis of the technical decisions used by working out of the plane of the fifth generation, taking into account operating experience of family of multi-purpose planes
Су-30МК2. Су-35 has possibility of application of all nomenclature of existing and perspective samples of aviation arms of a class "air-air" and "air-surface", including the high-precision. The first skilled planes Su-35 pass flight tests in Open Society «ОКБ Dry».
The success in the world market planes of the type Su-27 possessing unique characteristics and possibilities, are in many respects obliged not only the magnificent design created by a branch science, but also high scientific and technical and industrial potential of Open Society "КнААПО".
Throughout all activity by one of priority directions of activity performance of works under the State defensive order the basic amount of works on which now is carrying out of repair and modernisation of planes Su-27 of the Air Forces of the Russian Federation in a variant of Su-27Sm which are already successfully maintained the Air Forces of the Russian Federation is.
The great value of Open Society "КнААПО" gives not only to manufacture and repair of military aviation technics, but also development of programs of aviation technics of civil appointment. Within the limits of a manufacture diversification in the early nineties Open Society "КнААПО" has started works on working out and start in manufacture of civil planes. Among them easy amphibian Be-103 and the passenger-and-freight plane for local and regional airlines Su-80Gp.
Now prospects of the development of Open Society "КнААПО" connects with the program of the new regional plane Sukhoi Superjet-100 which creation is carried out in the union from Joint-Stock Company «Civil planes Dry» and Open Society "НАПО". Open Society "КнААПО" is defined by the manufacturer in interfactory cooperation of a fuselage, ОЧК and пилона planes.
On September, 26th, 2007 in territory of branch of Joint-Stock Company "ГСС" in Komsomolske-on-cupid have passed the solemn actions devoted выкатке first flight plane Sukhoi Superjet-100. The first flight of plane Sukhoi on May, 19th, 2008 has taken place
Superjet-100. In October, 2008 the plane has finished in On a stage honing factory test, having received from the Aviation register of Interstate aviation committee of Russia the experimental certificate of the flight validity. Further it expects 600 certified flights which will pass in Zhukovsky.
Realisation of the program of regional plane Sukhoi Superjet-100 will allow to finish a share of let out aviation technics of civil appointment to Open Society "КнААПО" to 50 %.
Within the limits of preparation of association for manufacture of new kinds of aviation technics of Open Society "КнААПО" carries out reconstruction of industrial targets, modernisation and equipment modernisation.
System of a quality management of Open Society "КнААПО" in 2007 ресертифицирована in system of voluntary certification of "Oboronsertifika". The received certificates certify conformity СМК Open Society "КнААПО" to requirements of GOST Р ИСО 9001-2001, GOST РВ 15.002 and standards of a series of SRPP ВТ. In 2008 the German body on certification DAR/TGA gives out the certificate of conformity of system of a quality management to requirements of the international aerospace standards of series AS/EN 9100 and Open Society "КНААПО" is brought in a database “OASIS” the international group of aviation quality (IAQG).
Work spent by Open Society "КнААПО" on equipment by the newest process equipment will allow and to let out further production corresponding to modern requirements of world level.
Its getting diffucult to find any new news about the PAK FA.Even at the Knaapo press conference!
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http://en.rian.ru/russia/20081205/118702548.html
Russia, India to sign next-generation fighter deal in early 2009
11:36 05/12/2008
NEW DELHI, December 5 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India are due to sign a contract at the beginning of 2009 to jointly develop and produce a fifth-generation jet fighter, the head of the United Aircraft Corporation said on Friday.
"We are planning to conclude the contract at the beginning of next year," Alexei Fedorov said.
The Russian-Indian advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under a preliminary intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.
Russia and India will simultaneously develop two versions of the combat aircraft - a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India's air superiority policy, and a single-seat version for the Russian Air Force.
Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it had started to construct a prototype of the fifth-generation fighter, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.
The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East.
Flight tests of the fighter are due to begin as early as 2009, and the aircraft may go into production by 2015, Sukhoi said.
Russia's military cooperation with India goes back nearly half a century, and the Asian country accounts for about 40% of Russian arms exports.
Russia, India to sign next-generation fighter deal in early 2009
11:36 05/12/2008
NEW DELHI, December 5 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India are due to sign a contract at the beginning of 2009 to jointly develop and produce a fifth-generation jet fighter, the head of the United Aircraft Corporation said on Friday.
"We are planning to conclude the contract at the beginning of next year," Alexei Fedorov said.
The Russian-Indian advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under a preliminary intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.
Russia and India will simultaneously develop two versions of the combat aircraft - a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India's air superiority policy, and a single-seat version for the Russian Air Force.
Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it had started to construct a prototype of the fifth-generation fighter, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.
The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East.
Flight tests of the fighter are due to begin as early as 2009, and the aircraft may go into production by 2015, Sukhoi said.
Russia's military cooperation with India goes back nearly half a century, and the Asian country accounts for about 40% of Russian arms exports.
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Well, tell me, what are you doing first when starting cooperation with someone - signing a contract or finishing a development? It's plain said that first thing goes first, or you just will have another dust bin project.
It means that they will share the work,which part will develop by whom ???,but in one year didn't they do anything about the design or any development?If they didn't do anything about the development process what did they do?And at the meeting in the India leaders experessed that the speed up the process about the development and the production of the aircraft!
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http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/10/fgfa-conundrum-explained.html
October 3, 2008
FGFA conundrum explained
The limited soundbytes coming from Dr Ashok K Baweja, Chairman of the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), notwithstanding (when he walked into the ‘ambush alley’ laid out by scribes waiting to be briefed on the outcome of the 8th India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation, or IRIGC-MTC), the past seven days have produced considerable clarity as well as raised several queries on the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, which was originally known within India as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) and will now be co-developed Indian and Russian military-industrial enterprises. However, before proceeding further, one stark reality needs to be recognised: The delayed delivery of the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (estimated by 2012), and the joint India-Russia R & D slippages of two futuristic programmes—the FGFA and the multi-role transport aircraft (MTA)—all have one thing in common: the delays are being caused by an acute shortage of trained technical manpower that currently prevails throughout the Russian Federation. For Moscow has since mid-2007 decided to focus the majority of its scarce human resources firstly towards the creation of new-generation strategic weapon systems, and secondly towards the creation of new military-industrial facilities within Russia that will enable Russia to forever eliminate its current dependence on existing manufacturing facilities located in Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. Russia believes that such dependency has, since the early 1990s, robbed it of tens of billions of dollars in terms of revenues earned from exports of weapon systems whose intellectual property rights are those of Russia. The implications for India of such measures adopted by Moscow are obvious: the United Aerospace Corp (UAC)—which now includes Sukhoi Aircraft Corp and RAC-MiG—along with the Tsentralniy Aerogidrodinamicheskiy Institut (Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute, or TsAGI), has now decided to co-develop with India’s state-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) the twin-engined 17.2-tonne FGFA (which in Russia is known as the Mnogofunktsyonalniy Frontovoy Samolyot, or MFS project) for the export market ONLY, for the time-being, meaning for already identified customers such as India and Brazil (which are being offered the aircraft by 2012), while retaining the option to induct the MFS by 2018. It is, however, according top priority to develop the heavier, 24-tonne T-50 Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi (PAK-FA) that will be optimised for air dominance, much like the Lockheed Martin-built F/A-22 Raptor. Consequently, the FGFA’s Russian R & D effort will henceforth be funded by private institutions, will be co-developed only for export and all Russian R & D contributions will henceforth be reduced by 85% and the void will be filled up by HAL and reportedly Embraer of Brazil, which inked a collaborative agreement to this effect with Rosoboronexport State Corp on April 15 this year. It also means that in terms of service induction schedule, the T-50 PAK-FA will be the first to become operational in Russia by 2012, followed by the MFS/FGFA by 2015. The T-50 PAK-FA’s prototypes will initially be powered by twin 117S turbofans developed and built by MMPP Salyut Moscow Salyut Machine Building Production Enterprise. The 117S, which is a highly upgraded Lyulka AL-31F, now has a total thrust with afterburning of 14.5 tonnes, or 2 tonnes more than the AL-31F, and is also qualified for a 1,500-hour time between overhauls (TBO). Production variants of the T-50 PAK-FA, however, will be powered by the AL-41F, which will be produced by MMPP Salyut, and the aircraft’s final assembly will be undertaken by UAC’s Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Organisation (KnAAPO) facility.
The genesis of India’s participation in Russia’s MFS project goes back to November 2002 when both Moscow and New Delhi inked a Memorandum of Understanding that, broadly speaking, called for India to begin evaluating its options for a risk-sharing R & D participation in the programme. By then, however, Russia had already decided to go it alone with the T-50 PAK-FA first, but lacked the necessary funding for completing the MFS/FGFA’s R & D effort. Moscow had, in 1998, already selected Sukhoi OKB’s T-50 PAK-FA proposal over the competing I-2000 LFI twin-engined design from RAC-MiG, Mikoyan OKB and Yakovlev OKB. The powerplant selected for the T-50 PAK-FA was NPO Saturn’s AL-41F, rated at 155kN (35,000lb) thrust and under development since 1985. Between 2002 and 2004 the P-50 PAK-FA’s all-digital mock-up was completed. On May 18, 2003 the P-50 PAK-FA’s engineering development-cum-production effort officially took off after an agreement to this effect was inked by the Russian Aerospace Agency Rosaviakosmos, Sukhoi OKB, the Sukhoi Military Production Complex, NPO Saturn, Vympel, Zvezda-Strela, TsAGI, Aerospace Equipment Corp, Ramenskoye RPKB, Polet, Tekhnocomplex, Tikhomirov NIIP, Urals Optics Mechanical plant, KNIIRTI, UMPO of Ufa, Gromov Flight Test and Research Institute in Zhukovsky, and MMPP Salyut of Moscow. The Russian R & D masterplan then had called for the T-50 PAK-FA to make its maiden flight in 2009, construction of seven flying prototypes, commencement of series production by 2011 and service entry a year later. ;D
In early 2005, when Sukhoi OKB gave its first generic presentation on the T-50 PAK-FA FGFA to Indian Air Force (IAF) HQ, it was quite surprised to hear that the IAF wanted a twin-engined, tandem-seat 17.2-tonne aircraft that was at least 5 tonnes lighter than the T-50 PAK-FA. Going back to the drawing boards, Sukhoi OKB returned in mid-2005 to give Air HQ a limited technical proposal for a single-engined variant of the T-50 PAK-FA, which was rejected outright by the IAF as being over-ambitious and unrealistic in terms of both the R & D costs to be incurred and the project implementation timetable. This was followed in December the same year by a separate, detailed presentation being given by Sukhoi OKB on its twin-engined MFS/FGFA design (Sukhoi’s proposal featured forward-swept wings at that time). The proposal also offered a 50% workshare for the Indian R & D/aerospace industrial entities, as stipulated earlier by IAF HQ. It was following these presentations that India selected committed itself to furnishing Russia with an initial sum of US$300 million that was urgently required by Sukhoi OKB to complete the MFS/FGFA’s detailed design phase and begin metal-cutting. In addition, NPO Saturn and UMPO committed themselves to set a parallel engine production facility at HAL’s Koraput-based facility to licence-produce an uprated variant of the AL-31FP turbofan with the help of raw materials supplied in Russia, with all moulding and machining work being done in India. For both Moscow and New Delhi this was seen as a very big concession, as Russia had never before transferred its engine production technologies abroad, with even the 1,500+ AL-31FPs for the Su-30MKIs now being supplied off-the-shelf to HAL as fully assembled engines.
Under the new scheme of things now, India and possibly Brazil will ultimately contribute 90% of the $2 billion required for completing the MFS/FGFA’s R & D phase. The single-seat airframe for the Russian Air Force (photos 1, 2 & 3), which was re-conceptualised late last year by doing away with the forward-swept wings, will be rolled out by late 2009, with its tandem-seat variant (which the IAF wants to induct into service) following two years later. Russia will fund the development of the uprated AL-31FP turbofan (which will be uprated by 20%, according to Dr Baweja), which will provide non-afterburning supersonic cruise speeds, will have a 6,000-hour technical service life, and will come equipped with three-dimensional thrust-vectoring nozzles (moving +/-15 degrees vertically and +/-8 degrees horizontally) as well as full authority digital electronic controls. The single-crystal turbine blades of the turbofan will be treated with a new-generation corrosion-protection coating developed by Urals-based PRAD, which will dramatically extend the service life of those AL-31FPs that are exposed to severe sand erosion. As for the distributed avionics suite of the MFS/FGFA, Russia has given the DRDO and HAL a free hand to define and design the open-architecture cockpit and mission avionics suites and an integrated self-defence suite. The quadruplex fly-by-light flight control system (yes, the IAF has insisted on it, while the Russian version of the MFS/FGFA will use fly-by-wire flight controls) will be jointly developed by the DRDO and Embraer, while potential suppliers of active phased-array radars include THALES of France, Israel Aerospace Industries, Phazotron JSC, Ericsson Microwave Systems, and EADS. Unit price of each tandem-seat variant of MFS/FGFA (another design configuration that the IAF has specified) is currently estimated at $65 million.
Based on the above, several questions have now arisen that are begging for convincing answers. These include:
1) Will it be possible for HAL to have the cake and eat it as well in terms of monopolising the MFS/FGFA’s detailed re-design requirements (to modify the original single-seat design to a tandem-seat aircraft), especially since its ARDC facility already has its hands full with similar work on the MRTA, LCH, LOH and medium-lift utility helicopter?
2) In order to lessen its work burden when it comes to detailed airframe re-design, will it adopt a consortium approach in terms of enrolling the services of the private sector while it acts as the nodal R & D authority answerable to IAF HQ?
3) Who will be responsible for conducting high-speed and high-altitude wind tunnel tests of the HAL-redesigned MFS/FGFA? Will it done in India or in Russia?
4) Will HAL will be the sole intellectual property custodian for all military airworthiness certification data pertaining to the tandem-seat MFS/FGFA? Or will it be a joint HAL-UAC affair?
5) Who will lead the effort to define and perfect the flight control logic for the redesigned MFS/FGFA?
6) Who will conduct the peer review of the flight control algorithms for the fly-by-light flight control system? In the absence of Russia’s ability to conduct such peer reviews, which other non-Russian aerospace entity is likely to be approached to conduct such peer reviews?
7) Will the selection of the uprated AL-31F powerplant for the MFS/FGFA also result in HAL eventually forcing the MoD and IAF HQ to select the same turbofan (on financial grounds) for powering the Tejas LCA, thereby trying the MoD to override the technical recommendations of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and IAF HQ? Or will HAL team up with NPO Saturn to successfully bid for developing an uprated variant of the Kaveri turbofan and adopt this very engine as the definitive powerplant for the MFS/FGFA?
8) Will HAL, and not the DRDO’s ADA and DARE facilities, be in the driver’s seat when it comes to the redesigned MFS/FGFA’s systems integration efforts? Or will it outsource such activities to ADA and DARE?
9) Why has the IAF specified a tandem-seat configuration for the MFS/FGFA? If it wants even a fifth-generation combat aircraft to be a two-seater, does this also mean that it will be pre-disposed toward a tandem-seat fourth-generation M-MRCA which is now in the process of being evaluated prior to final selection?
10) Will IAF HQ draw the correct lessons from its experiences regarding the Tejas LCA’s R & D effort and this time, right from the outset create an over-arching Systems Programme Office that will monitor and guide the multi-disciplinary industrial R & D efforts?
—Prasun K. Sengupta
October 3, 2008
FGFA conundrum explained
The limited soundbytes coming from Dr Ashok K Baweja, Chairman of the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), notwithstanding (when he walked into the ‘ambush alley’ laid out by scribes waiting to be briefed on the outcome of the 8th India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation, or IRIGC-MTC), the past seven days have produced considerable clarity as well as raised several queries on the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, which was originally known within India as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) and will now be co-developed Indian and Russian military-industrial enterprises. However, before proceeding further, one stark reality needs to be recognised: The delayed delivery of the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (estimated by 2012), and the joint India-Russia R & D slippages of two futuristic programmes—the FGFA and the multi-role transport aircraft (MTA)—all have one thing in common: the delays are being caused by an acute shortage of trained technical manpower that currently prevails throughout the Russian Federation. For Moscow has since mid-2007 decided to focus the majority of its scarce human resources firstly towards the creation of new-generation strategic weapon systems, and secondly towards the creation of new military-industrial facilities within Russia that will enable Russia to forever eliminate its current dependence on existing manufacturing facilities located in Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. Russia believes that such dependency has, since the early 1990s, robbed it of tens of billions of dollars in terms of revenues earned from exports of weapon systems whose intellectual property rights are those of Russia. The implications for India of such measures adopted by Moscow are obvious: the United Aerospace Corp (UAC)—which now includes Sukhoi Aircraft Corp and RAC-MiG—along with the Tsentralniy Aerogidrodinamicheskiy Institut (Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute, or TsAGI), has now decided to co-develop with India’s state-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) the twin-engined 17.2-tonne FGFA (which in Russia is known as the Mnogofunktsyonalniy Frontovoy Samolyot, or MFS project) for the export market ONLY, for the time-being, meaning for already identified customers such as India and Brazil (which are being offered the aircraft by 2012), while retaining the option to induct the MFS by 2018. It is, however, according top priority to develop the heavier, 24-tonne T-50 Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi (PAK-FA) that will be optimised for air dominance, much like the Lockheed Martin-built F/A-22 Raptor. Consequently, the FGFA’s Russian R & D effort will henceforth be funded by private institutions, will be co-developed only for export and all Russian R & D contributions will henceforth be reduced by 85% and the void will be filled up by HAL and reportedly Embraer of Brazil, which inked a collaborative agreement to this effect with Rosoboronexport State Corp on April 15 this year. It also means that in terms of service induction schedule, the T-50 PAK-FA will be the first to become operational in Russia by 2012, followed by the MFS/FGFA by 2015. The T-50 PAK-FA’s prototypes will initially be powered by twin 117S turbofans developed and built by MMPP Salyut Moscow Salyut Machine Building Production Enterprise. The 117S, which is a highly upgraded Lyulka AL-31F, now has a total thrust with afterburning of 14.5 tonnes, or 2 tonnes more than the AL-31F, and is also qualified for a 1,500-hour time between overhauls (TBO). Production variants of the T-50 PAK-FA, however, will be powered by the AL-41F, which will be produced by MMPP Salyut, and the aircraft’s final assembly will be undertaken by UAC’s Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Organisation (KnAAPO) facility.
The genesis of India’s participation in Russia’s MFS project goes back to November 2002 when both Moscow and New Delhi inked a Memorandum of Understanding that, broadly speaking, called for India to begin evaluating its options for a risk-sharing R & D participation in the programme. By then, however, Russia had already decided to go it alone with the T-50 PAK-FA first, but lacked the necessary funding for completing the MFS/FGFA’s R & D effort. Moscow had, in 1998, already selected Sukhoi OKB’s T-50 PAK-FA proposal over the competing I-2000 LFI twin-engined design from RAC-MiG, Mikoyan OKB and Yakovlev OKB. The powerplant selected for the T-50 PAK-FA was NPO Saturn’s AL-41F, rated at 155kN (35,000lb) thrust and under development since 1985. Between 2002 and 2004 the P-50 PAK-FA’s all-digital mock-up was completed. On May 18, 2003 the P-50 PAK-FA’s engineering development-cum-production effort officially took off after an agreement to this effect was inked by the Russian Aerospace Agency Rosaviakosmos, Sukhoi OKB, the Sukhoi Military Production Complex, NPO Saturn, Vympel, Zvezda-Strela, TsAGI, Aerospace Equipment Corp, Ramenskoye RPKB, Polet, Tekhnocomplex, Tikhomirov NIIP, Urals Optics Mechanical plant, KNIIRTI, UMPO of Ufa, Gromov Flight Test and Research Institute in Zhukovsky, and MMPP Salyut of Moscow. The Russian R & D masterplan then had called for the T-50 PAK-FA to make its maiden flight in 2009, construction of seven flying prototypes, commencement of series production by 2011 and service entry a year later. ;D
In early 2005, when Sukhoi OKB gave its first generic presentation on the T-50 PAK-FA FGFA to Indian Air Force (IAF) HQ, it was quite surprised to hear that the IAF wanted a twin-engined, tandem-seat 17.2-tonne aircraft that was at least 5 tonnes lighter than the T-50 PAK-FA. Going back to the drawing boards, Sukhoi OKB returned in mid-2005 to give Air HQ a limited technical proposal for a single-engined variant of the T-50 PAK-FA, which was rejected outright by the IAF as being over-ambitious and unrealistic in terms of both the R & D costs to be incurred and the project implementation timetable. This was followed in December the same year by a separate, detailed presentation being given by Sukhoi OKB on its twin-engined MFS/FGFA design (Sukhoi’s proposal featured forward-swept wings at that time). The proposal also offered a 50% workshare for the Indian R & D/aerospace industrial entities, as stipulated earlier by IAF HQ. It was following these presentations that India selected committed itself to furnishing Russia with an initial sum of US$300 million that was urgently required by Sukhoi OKB to complete the MFS/FGFA’s detailed design phase and begin metal-cutting. In addition, NPO Saturn and UMPO committed themselves to set a parallel engine production facility at HAL’s Koraput-based facility to licence-produce an uprated variant of the AL-31FP turbofan with the help of raw materials supplied in Russia, with all moulding and machining work being done in India. For both Moscow and New Delhi this was seen as a very big concession, as Russia had never before transferred its engine production technologies abroad, with even the 1,500+ AL-31FPs for the Su-30MKIs now being supplied off-the-shelf to HAL as fully assembled engines.
Under the new scheme of things now, India and possibly Brazil will ultimately contribute 90% of the $2 billion required for completing the MFS/FGFA’s R & D phase. The single-seat airframe for the Russian Air Force (photos 1, 2 & 3), which was re-conceptualised late last year by doing away with the forward-swept wings, will be rolled out by late 2009, with its tandem-seat variant (which the IAF wants to induct into service) following two years later. Russia will fund the development of the uprated AL-31FP turbofan (which will be uprated by 20%, according to Dr Baweja), which will provide non-afterburning supersonic cruise speeds, will have a 6,000-hour technical service life, and will come equipped with three-dimensional thrust-vectoring nozzles (moving +/-15 degrees vertically and +/-8 degrees horizontally) as well as full authority digital electronic controls. The single-crystal turbine blades of the turbofan will be treated with a new-generation corrosion-protection coating developed by Urals-based PRAD, which will dramatically extend the service life of those AL-31FPs that are exposed to severe sand erosion. As for the distributed avionics suite of the MFS/FGFA, Russia has given the DRDO and HAL a free hand to define and design the open-architecture cockpit and mission avionics suites and an integrated self-defence suite. The quadruplex fly-by-light flight control system (yes, the IAF has insisted on it, while the Russian version of the MFS/FGFA will use fly-by-wire flight controls) will be jointly developed by the DRDO and Embraer, while potential suppliers of active phased-array radars include THALES of France, Israel Aerospace Industries, Phazotron JSC, Ericsson Microwave Systems, and EADS. Unit price of each tandem-seat variant of MFS/FGFA (another design configuration that the IAF has specified) is currently estimated at $65 million.
Based on the above, several questions have now arisen that are begging for convincing answers. These include:
1) Will it be possible for HAL to have the cake and eat it as well in terms of monopolising the MFS/FGFA’s detailed re-design requirements (to modify the original single-seat design to a tandem-seat aircraft), especially since its ARDC facility already has its hands full with similar work on the MRTA, LCH, LOH and medium-lift utility helicopter?
2) In order to lessen its work burden when it comes to detailed airframe re-design, will it adopt a consortium approach in terms of enrolling the services of the private sector while it acts as the nodal R & D authority answerable to IAF HQ?
3) Who will be responsible for conducting high-speed and high-altitude wind tunnel tests of the HAL-redesigned MFS/FGFA? Will it done in India or in Russia?
4) Will HAL will be the sole intellectual property custodian for all military airworthiness certification data pertaining to the tandem-seat MFS/FGFA? Or will it be a joint HAL-UAC affair?
5) Who will lead the effort to define and perfect the flight control logic for the redesigned MFS/FGFA?
6) Who will conduct the peer review of the flight control algorithms for the fly-by-light flight control system? In the absence of Russia’s ability to conduct such peer reviews, which other non-Russian aerospace entity is likely to be approached to conduct such peer reviews?
7) Will the selection of the uprated AL-31F powerplant for the MFS/FGFA also result in HAL eventually forcing the MoD and IAF HQ to select the same turbofan (on financial grounds) for powering the Tejas LCA, thereby trying the MoD to override the technical recommendations of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and IAF HQ? Or will HAL team up with NPO Saturn to successfully bid for developing an uprated variant of the Kaveri turbofan and adopt this very engine as the definitive powerplant for the MFS/FGFA?
8) Will HAL, and not the DRDO’s ADA and DARE facilities, be in the driver’s seat when it comes to the redesigned MFS/FGFA’s systems integration efforts? Or will it outsource such activities to ADA and DARE?
9) Why has the IAF specified a tandem-seat configuration for the MFS/FGFA? If it wants even a fifth-generation combat aircraft to be a two-seater, does this also mean that it will be pre-disposed toward a tandem-seat fourth-generation M-MRCA which is now in the process of being evaluated prior to final selection?
10) Will IAF HQ draw the correct lessons from its experiences regarding the Tejas LCA’s R & D effort and this time, right from the outset create an over-arching Systems Programme Office that will monitor and guide the multi-disciplinary industrial R & D efforts?
—Prasun K. Sengupta
- Status
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