Sukhoi Su-15 Projects

overscan (PaulMM)

overscan (PaulMM)

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T-60

An alternate design to the T-58, with MiG-25 style intakes.

T58D-30 (Su-15-30)

A 1966-67 project to equip the Su-15 with the complete MiG-25 weapons system (Smerch-A radar and K-40 missiles). Additionally, it would use afterburning variants of the Soloviev D-30 turbofan engine instead of the R-13-300. No illustration.

T-58Sh

1969 project to turn Su-15 into a ground attack aircraft (rival designs: MiG-21Sh, Mig-27Sh, Yak-28Sh; lost out to Sukhoi's T-8 design)

[images removed - Overscan]
 
Su-19 (T-58PS)

1972-73 project, using T-10 ogival wing design with 6 hardpoints and a built in cannon. Agility was dramatically improved, and it could carry 4 R-60 AAMS as well as two R-98.

Su-19M

The Su-19M was the Su-19 reengined with advanced three spool Tumansky R-67-300 turbofans, as proposed for the MiG-29 against the RD-33.

Su-15M

Su-15TM rebuilt with Poorga lookdown/shootdown radar, Lyulka AL-21F turbojet engines and K-50 AAMs.

[images removed - Overscan]
 
Sources:

Piotr Butowski, 'Sukhoi Su-15' Lotnictwo Wojskowe 6 2001
Yefim Gordon, Red Star 16: Sukhoi Interceptors Midland 2004
Tony Buttler & Yefim Gordon, Soviet Secret Projects: Fighters Since 1945 Midland 2005
Viktor Pavlov 'Su-15: Klassika Vtorogo Pokoleniya' Aviatsiya i Vremya 1 2003
 
Hi,

There were other schemes for derivatives, for example the "Su-19M" of the mid-1970s, which was basically an Su-15TM with improved engines and an "ogival" wing, featuring a leading-edge sweep that smoothly varied from steep at the wingroot, moderate in midwing, and steep at the wingtips. There were three stores pylons under each wing, allowing carriage of six AAMs, and a built-in cannon on the belly. Nobody was buying; the Su-27 was the way of the future, there was no reason to have interest in a warmed-over design with roots going back to the early 1950s.
 
From the book; Sukhoi Interceptors,by Yefim Gordon;

here is the Su-19M and T-58Sh projects.


Images removed - scanned from Red Star 16 Sukhoi Interceptors by Yefim Gordon published by Ian Allan. Previous scans of same items in topic removed at publisher's request - Admin
 
Su 19m with ogival wings model


Images removed - scanned from "Soviet Secret Projects Fighters Since 1945" By Tony Buttler and Yefim Gordon. This has a section on Su-15 projects which is recommended reading. Previous scans of same items in topic removed at publisher's request - Admin
 
are you going to post the whole book page by page, guys?
 
T58D-30 (Su-15-30)

A 1966-67 project to equip the Su-15 with the complete MiG-25 weapons system (Smerch-A radar and K-40 missiles). Additionally, it would use afterburning variants of the Soloviev D-30 turbofan engine instead of the R-13-300. No illustration.
Click to expand...
What a pity :'(

Regards
Pioneer
 
Here are two images published in Aviatsiya i Vremia #62 (2003):
  • Two-view drawing of the Sukhoi T-58Sh
  • Bottom drawing of the Sukhoi Su-19M
 

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to administrator

Excuse me, but, I've found my photos on
"forum.key publishing.com" not on the book you
mention.!
they are on this site since july 2010 and you could see them
always to day !
Nevertheless, I understand
Bye
 
yesterday I checked my "Soviet Secret Projects Fighters Since 1945". Picture of Su-19M is the same as "Bottom drawing of the Sukhoi Su-19M" from Aviatsiya i Vremia #62 (2003), but in Aviatsiya i Vremia it was published sooner. I think it is ill to ask to remove some picture from unknown source when you don't have copyright on it. Or?
 
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The scan included the text captions which clearly shows the image was scanned from the Ian Allan publications in question (I own paper copies of both).


It is quite possible that the copyright status of the image is uncertain, not least due to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Thats an issue for Ian Allan and Mr Gordon, not this forum.


Nevertheless, forum guidelines state that scans posted under defence of fair use/fair dealing are subject to veto from publishers. This applies particularly to books or magazines which are still in print and/or easily available. A scan of a project from an old magazine or book out of print does not normally materially harm the publisher. Scans from current publications may harm sales of said book or magazine, which prevents new books being published on this subject. For instance, scans of projects from Chris Gibson's Projecttech books would not be appropriate here.
 
Hi,


here is a picture to Su-19M Model,and a drawing to T-58K,please note the delta wing
area in the last one.


Истребитель-перехватчик Су-15: Граница на замке
 

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Hi,


here is also a strange project to Su-15,the T-58M,but as we know,the T-58M was
a VTOL aircraft ?.


Фронтовой бомбардировщик Су-24
 

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Skyblazer said:
Here are two images published in Aviatsiya i Vremia #62 (2003):
  • Two-view drawing of the Sukhoi T-58Sh
  • Bottom drawing of the Sukhoi Su-19M
Click to expand...

And a 3-view to Su-15Sh.

Аэрокосмическое обозрение №06 (43) 2009
 

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
T58D-30 (Su-15-30)

A 1966-67 project to equip the Su-15 with the complete MiG-25 weapons system (Smerch-A radar and K-40 missiles). Additionally, it would use afterburning variants of the Soloviev D-30 turbofan engine instead of the R-13-300. No illustration.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't you need just one afterburning D-30 to have more thrust than both R-13-300s? I could see this looking somewhat similar to the original single-engine Su-15 version proposed with an AL-21.
 
hesham said:
here is also a strange project to Su-15,the T-58M,but as we know,the T-58M was
a VTOL aircraft ?.
Click to expand...

Also from my files,

the T-58M VTOL aircraft project,had a four lift engines.
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
T-60

An alternate design to the T-58, with MiG-25 style intakes.

T58D-30 (Su-15-30)

A 1966-67 project to equip the Su-15 with the complete MiG-25 weapons system (Smerch-A radar and K-40 missiles). Additionally, it would use afterburning variants of the Soloviev D-30 turbofan engine instead of the R-13-300. No illustration.

T-58Sh
Click to expand...

I'd forgotten that I'd started on a rough sketch of what this variant might look like. Superficially the changes don't look major, but it's Mig-25-style intakes and radome and small changes to mimic the rear of the Soloviev engine.

Original image by Kaboldy at Wikimedia
 

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hesham said:
hesham said:
here is also a strange project to Su-15,the T-58M,but as we know,the T-58M was
a VTOL aircraft ?.
Click to expand...

Also from my files,

the T-58M VTOL aircraft project,had a four lift engines.
Click to expand...

Many thanks to you Merv,

and by the way the T-58M was not related to this V/STOL one.
 

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Hi! Su-19M.

http://thexhs.livejournal.com/17683.html
 

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Some real life background for whatif modelling scenarios for Su-15.

In air defense, the question of replacing the radar on the Su-15 from the RP-15 to the Sapfir-23 was raised, it turns out, almost since 1966, there was a letter from Batitsky to the MAP on this topic. It was motivated, of course, from the point of view that the RP-15, like all other monopulse radars, could not work on targets against the background of the earth. But the MAP quickly got their bearings, and answered in the vein that they say the timing of the creation of the Sapfir-23 radar station is beyond the timing of the serial production of the Su-15. And at the same time, they wanted to completely curtail the Su-15 series by 1972...
Click to expand...

Су-15 - Страница 21

Су-15ТМ в 166 ГвИАП ПВО Марнеули (Сандар), Грузия.
forums.airforce.ru

Presumably this would have been paired with R-23 missiles.

Today I saw an interesting document in the archive, according to which at the end of the 60s the task of re-equipping the Su-15TM with the K-25 missile (a copy of Sparrow) was announced, for this it was proposed either to upgrade the Taifun-M radar according to the Taifun-25 variant, or even put a new radar - "Purga". Unfortunately, all this remained at the level of the "wants" of the military, even though they were formalized by the relevant decisions of the military-industrial complex ...
Click to expand...

Су-15 - Страница 24

Каюсь, не пересмотрел ветку. Жизнь на которой еле теплица и начинаешь забывать что писали, особенно когда пишешь не сам. Но эта история с "Т"
forums.airforce.ru

The Purga radar was also intended for the Su-19 "deep modernisation" of the Su-15 with ogival wings and R-67-300 turbofans. It was intended to be a pulse doppler radar. It was not funded for development.
 
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blackkite said:
Hi! Su-19M.

thexhs.livejournal.com

Су-19 (Т-58ПС) - нереализованный проект Су-15 с оживальным крылом

В 1972-73 гг. ОКБ попыталось вдохнуть в Су-15 новую жизнь за счет радикального улучшения его аэродинамики. Так как большие надежды возлагались на «оживальное» крыло, предназначенное для истребителя Т-10. то рассматривалась возможность оснастить им и Т-58. Тема получила в ОКБ рабочее обозначение…
thexhs.livejournal.com thexhs.livejournal.com
Click to expand...

Excuse me but I have a question if anyone is willing to answer. I have seen this kind of ogival wing in the development of many aircraft both in Russia and in the western world. Even the su-27 prototype t-10 had a similar ogival delta wing if I remember right. Does anyone else notice this trend and that nobody ultimately used it either in the east or west. Why is that?
 
TMA1 said:
blackkite said:
Hi! Su-19M.

thexhs.livejournal.com

Су-19 (Т-58ПС) - нереализованный проект Су-15 с оживальным крылом

В 1972-73 гг. ОКБ попыталось вдохнуть в Су-15 новую жизнь за счет радикального улучшения его аэродинамики. Так как большие надежды возлагались на «оживальное» крыло, предназначенное для истребителя Т-10. то рассматривалась возможность оснастить им и Т-58. Тема получила в ОКБ рабочее обозначение…
thexhs.livejournal.com thexhs.livejournal.com
Click to expand...

Excuse me but I have a question if anyone is willing to answer. I have seen this kind of ogival wing in the development of many aircraft both in Russia and in the western world. Even the su-27 prototype t-10 had a similar ogival delta wing if I remember right. Does anyone else notice this trend and that nobody ultimately used it either in the east or west. Why is that?
Click to expand...

It was started (in Sukhoi's case at least) by reading a British analysis of Concorde's wing vortex lift, which gave a lot more lift than you would expect from conventional analysis. It was fashionable for a while, but eventually was replaced by separate LERX and conventional wing designs for fighter aircraft. This gave the essentially the same vortex lift benefit while being simpler to fit with leading edge flaps and also from a structural perspective.
 
Hawker Hunter and BAE Hawk have similar curved leading edges. The curve helps optimize sweep at various stations.
Hunter has curved tips because they reduce the size of wing tip vortices. Hunter lacks the square-cut wing tips of later jet fighters because it was designed before tip-mounted air-to-air missiles (e.g. AIM 9 Sidewinder) became fashionable. Hawk lacks square-cut wing-tips because it was only meant to be a trainer.
 
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Sukhoi designers were split on whether to go with trying to fix the issues with the original T-10 layout or switch to the LERX plus moderately swept wing design of the eventual Su-27, and some thought less radical surgery could resolve the issues.

Mikhail Simonov was newly installed, and it suited him to pursue the larger redesign, feeding the narrative of him coming in to "save" the project. It was probably the correct call, but even with the physical redesign some of the Su-27's original design objectives had to be passed on to the future Su-27M version. There's an interesting scenario where they went with the T-10 design (the factory was already prepared for mass production) - how much would this affect its future prospects? Would it have hastened work on MFI?
 
From this book,

some details only.
 

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