Soviet COIN and light Shturmovik Projects

overscan (PaulMM) · 28 November 2009

Nice - attached below.

As I understood it the Foton, albeit a research project, was supposed to feed in the Shturmovik-90 program?

Pioneer · 29 November 2009

I could see this 'Broncoski' being somewhat of an issue over the battlefield if it had of been put into production and service!
It looks so NAA OV-10 Bronco like, neither it or the OV-10 would have been safe from possible friendly-fire.
Saying this, I could picture it being in the markings of either West German or USAF/USMC markings for infiltrating of Spetsnaz or GRU into West Germany!

Regards
Pioneer

LowObservable · 7 January 2010

Stavatti has a Moscow office?

I can haz eye bleach?

flateric · 7 January 2010

Comrade Eugeny Petrovich Grunin (ROS-Aeroprogress Chief Designer, now Khrunichev-Aviatekhnika Inc.) was in charge of ground attack aircrafts in Sukhoi DB in late 80s, and has much more close to reality, than Mr.Beskar (at least several of Grunin's aircrafts are BUILT and successfully FLYING)

more on Grunin projects
http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1228308628/0

T-502 and T-710 (kitbashing fuselage of Su-25UB)

flateric · 7 January 2010

more on T-710

flateric · 7 January 2010

T-712 and COIN version of T-101 Grach

Triton · 7 January 2010

Very nice! ;D Thank you flateric!

AeroFranz · 8 January 2010

I must say the horizontal tail on the T-720 is a little bit perplexing...it looks almost like an afterthought on this layout. The three lifting surface configuration has been used in the past to get the wingspar behind a passenger cabin (Piaggio Avanti to name one) and supposedly bestows lower trim drag in cruise. But you pay for it in added wetted area and structure. I don't see a COIN aircraft benefitting from this (they tend to have the drag of houses flying sideways anyway - saving a few drag counts on trim drag doesn't matter). If control authority or cg range was the problem, there are better ways to deal with it. I'm assuming Grunin knows what his doing, but it's not immediately clear to me.

overscan (PaulMM) · 8 January 2010

Great pics, Grigori, thanks for the link.

Aerofranz - this design (T-730) seems to be the same basic layout and lacks the central horizontal tail in favour of conventional tailpanes (and has more Su-34 DNA included

Piotr Butowski suggests that this is basically a design Grunin worked on at Sukhoi for a COIN/observation aircraft.

overscan (PaulMM) · 8 January 2010

http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1228308628/480

Google translation:

Here are found the general form of aircraft T-710 "Anaconda."
Unfortunately, in Russia's army has no multi-purpose armored aircraft that would combine the functions:
- Spy
- Aircraft for close air support,
- Spotter artillery fire,
- Jammer,
- Command post
- Health,
- Light transport,
- Landing,
- Training.

Since the main part of our KB - Officers of Yakovlev Design Bureau, Sukhoi (spent 20-30 years in EDB), the topic was familiar to us. AI Andrianov, YI Palavky, VV Sakharov, LA Tarasevich, VE Vasiliev. FA Koretsky led the work on the project.

It is based on the aerodynamic and layout schemes, the famous American aircraft company «Rockwell Int.» OV-10 «Bronco», but based on the "old elements" - the elemental basis of the Su-25UB and tooling factory in Ulan-Ude.

Airplane T-710 had the armored cockpit Su-25UB, part of its systems, chassis. Tail boom, tail (GO) - were used by aircraft M-55 (Smolensk Aviation Plant). The plane could take various weapons, carried in the cargo hold office infantry weapons. Since the military had no contact, the work was carried out at their own initiative.

Tying the project to an existing snap-in factories consciously - to reduce the cost of construction production aircraft.
Two variants:
- Engine capacity 1400 hp (TVD-20, TVD-1500 turboprop VC-1500)
- Engine TV-7-117 - capacity 2500 hp

LTH

Max take-off weight, kg 7500
Max empty weight, kg 4320
"Curb weight" [снаряженного], kg 4600
fuel weight, kg 1500
combat load weight, kg 2500
Weight combat load, kg 1400
Weight useful heating, kg 2900
Range with max fuel, 2,800 miles
Maximum speed, km / h 485
Cruising speed, km / h 380-400
Range, 480 km
Crew 2
Passengers 7
Practical ceiling, m 7400
Takeoff distance (H = 15 m), m 690
Landing distance (H = 15 m), m 360
overload 5/-2, 5
[Максимальная мощность, л.с] 2 Х 1400-2500
[Площадь крыльев, кв.м.] 45,1

overscan (PaulMM) · 8 January 2010

http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1228308628/420

Here is a small "military" project of our size.

Project which I will discuss is called the T-501
Training - training aircraft to the theater was designed as a private venture in 1991-1992. Virtually the entire project was carried out by experts OKB Mikoyan. Head theme was Lapshin VP. Was made the entire volume of working documents. Produced a model for purging at TsAGI, and made not the full scope of works for purging. Working with the Mikoyan OKB was negotiated. Due to lack of sufficient funding, work was stopped. Project and to date, the day has not lost relevance, was stopped and was not renewed.

The figures can slightly wrong, information taken from Jane `s.

Max weight, kg 2670
Curb weight, kg 1520
mass of fuel, 500 kg
Weight useful heating, kg 1150
Range with max fuel, 1,800 miles
Maximum speed, km / h 570
Cruising speed, km / h 360
Crew 2
Stalling speed, km / h 115
Takeoff, m 160
Mileage, 190 m
Model 10B turboprop engine
Maximum power, hp 1000
Length, m 9,66
Wingspan, m 11
Wing area, sq.m 16.5

The third photograph the model with an outboard arms. On the suspension can carry up to 550 kg load.

Triton · 11 January 2010

Aeroprogress/ROKS-Aero T-710 Anaconda

Type: Projected twin-turboprop counter-insurgency aircraft.

Design features: Twin-boom high-wing monoplane, with constant-chord wings; podded fuselage;high-set tailplane; retractable tricycle landing gear, with single wheel on each unit. Double-slotted flaps for STOL capability.

Powerplant: Two 1,839 kW (2,466 shp) Klimov TV7-117M turboprops; contrarotating six-blade constant-speed propellers.

Accomodation: Two in tandem, on stepped ejection seats.

Armament: Six stores pylons under stub-wings and fuselage for bombs, torpedo, rocket packs, and other weapons: four machine guns in stub-wings; four pylons under wingtips for air-to-air missiles; twin-barrel 23 mm gun under fuselage.

Dimensions: None except propeller diameter 3.60m (11 ft 9.25 in)

Weights and Loadings
Weapon load (normal): 1,000 kg (2,205 lb)
Weapon load (max): 2,500 kg (5,510 lb)
Max fuel: 1,500 kg (2,306 lb)
Max take-off weight: 7,500 kg (16,535 lb)

Performance (estimated):
Max level speed at height: 388 kts (720 km/h: 447 mph)
Max level speed at sea level: 367 kts (680 km/h; 422 mph)
Service ceiling: 6,000 m (19,685 ft)
Balanced field length: 500 m (1,640 ft)
Radius of action with normal weapons load: 242 n miles (450 km; 280 miles)
g limits: +5/-2.5

Source: Jackson, Paul editor. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1995-96 Jane's Information Group Limited 1995 p. 306.

flateric · 12 January 2010

Compare T-502 to S-86...

ucon · 12 January 2010

MDB M-205 and M-207 COIN variants

frank · 12 January 2010

Interesting that none of the pics show it with the contra-rotating props, only singles.

Frank, no need to cite 20 rows of text to add just one of yours, OK?

Triton · 16 January 2010

Inboard profile of ROKS-Aero T-501.

Three-view drawing of ROKS-Aero T-501.

Source: http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1228308628/510

Triton · 16 January 2010

Aeroprogress/ROKS-Aero T-501 Strizh (Swift)

Type: Tandem two-seat turboprop basic trainer.

Program: Details released and model displayed March 1992; original program abandoned after change of Russian Air Force requirements in 1995. Production assigned to Khrunichev plant.

Design features: Conventional low-wing monoplane; unswept wings without dihedral and anhedral; sweptback vertical tail surfaces; unswept horizontal tail surfaces; retractable tricycle landing gear; conventional raised rear cockpit.

Power plant: One 745 kW (1,010 shp) Mars (Omsk) TVD-10B turboprop. Provision for drop tank under each wing.

Armament: Provision for underwing armament.

Dimensions external
Wing span: 11.00 m (36 ft 1 in)
Wing aspect ratio: 7.33
Length overall: 9.66 m (31 ft 8.5 in)

Areas
Wings, gross: 16.5 sq m (177.6 sq ft)

Weights and loadings
Max fuel weight: 500 kg (1,102 lb)
Max external load: 500 kg (1,102 lb)
Max T-O weight: 2,670 kg (5,8886 lb)
Max wing loading: 161.8 kg/sq m (33.14 lb/sq ft)
Max power loading: 3.50 kg/kW (5.74 lb/shp)

Performance (estimated)
Max level speed: 285-307 kts (530-570 km/h; 330-354 mph)
T-O speed: 73 kts (135 km/h; 84 mph)
Landing speed: 65 kts (120 km/h; 75 mph)
Max rate of climb at S/L: 1,260 m (4,135 ft)/min
T-O run: 160 m (525 ft)
Landing run: 190 m (625 ft)
Min turning radius: 90 m (295 ft)
Min 360 degree turning time: 11 s
Max range with external fuel at high altitude: 970 n miles (1,800 km; 1,115 miles)
Max range with external fuel at low altitude: 540 n miles (1,000 km; 620 miles)

Source: Jackson, Paul editor. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1995-96 Jane's Information Group Limited 1995 p. 305.

borovik · 22 January 2011

SM-92P "Finist" of Technoavia
Source:"Airplanes of World"3-4/1997

flateric · 5 April 2011

overscan said:
This model was seen at SIBNIA. IF its S-46, then the two contrarotating propellers are each powered by a separate TV7-117. It is certainly based on the Su-25.

"usually well informed"(c) Mikhael from SibNIA says at Paralay's forum that this was a result of kitbashing (using 1/72 Su-25 model kit from UNDA) by one of SibNIA staff modeling nut..and never had a prototype in real life.
thus, 20 years old mystery that even Jane's bought for real, is solved

taildragger · 6 April 2011

Not exactly on-topic, but I was wondering if anyone has evidence of any Soviet counterparts to the USAF gunships (AC-47, 119 and 130)? I could understand a conceit that a revolutionary power would never need to hose down lightly armed insurgents, but you'd think that the Afghan experience would have made an armed An-12 attractive. I can't think of another major category of combat airplane that didn't have counterparts, or planned counterparts, on both sides of the Cold War. Even WIGs and oversized helicopters were studied and/or programmed in the West.

flateric · 6 April 2011

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1369.0.html

frank · 6 April 2011

Not exactly Soviet (or former) but the PRC has reportedly developed a gunship variant of their Y-8 copy of the Antonov An-12. I've seen some pics & drawings somewhere, but can't find them at the moment.

taildragger said:
Not exactly on-topic, but I was wondering if anyone has evidence of any Soviet counterparts to the USAF gunships (AC-47, 119 and 130)? I could understand a conceit that a revolutionary power would never need to hose down lightly armed insurgents, but you'd think that the Afghan experience would have made an armed An-12 attractive. I can't think of another major category of combat airplane that didn't have counterparts, or planned counterparts, on both sides of the Cold War. Even WIGs and oversized helicopters were studied and/or programmed in the West.

flateric · 28 November 2011

The Artist said:
I don't think this was a real concept model and here's why. When I look at this picture I see an inverted, heavily modified F-18 (Early - maybe ESCI) with the cockpit placed over the nose gear well and wings from a smaller scale F-15 kit added. The forward section might even have an F-16 nose grafted on in place of the F-18 cockpit and nose. From what I can see of the verticals, they could be F-16 horizontals.

You are correct. Such kitbashing was often used here to fool praying eyes, one of examples was Sukhoi T-12 SABA model

flanker · 29 November 2011

The Artist said:
Funny that this thread popped into my view today. I have this issue (December 1993) and I was just looking at this picture this morning. I don't think this was a real concept model and here's why. When I look at this picture I see an inverted, heavily modified F-18 (Early - maybe ESCI) with the cockpit placed over the nose gear well and wings from a smaller scale F-15 kit added. The forward section might even have an F-16 nose grafted on in place of the F-18 cockpit and nose. From what I can see of the verticals, they could be F-16 horizontals. To my eye, the drawings in the article are only suggestive of this model. I'll try scanning those drawings sometime in the next few days.

Haha, that is excellent. Never thought of that. ;D

Avimimus · 29 November 2011

Ah, Interesting. The SABA T-12 is the turbo-pusher? The actual Sh-90 T-12 was a genuine concept?

I suppose all of the data on the true tailless Mig project (PAK-FA contender), is still entirely classified?

flateric · 29 November 2011

this was SiBNIA model shop kitbashing joke made from UNDA 1/72 Su-25 model kits

Sh-90 T-12 was a real project at least Piotr photographed desktop model in Sukhoi DB and project existance confirmed by DB staff

yes, E-721 is classified

Stargazer · 6 May 2012

The projected MAI Foton in a turboprop-powered variant:

Avimimus · 6 May 2012

It is harder to imagine a warload on that one.
Fascinating though! Thanks!

It is a very cool project - nice simple concept, well executed. I don't think I'll get tired of the photon any time soon...

AeroFranz · 7 May 2012

cool little bird. Any further information on the two pod mounted APUs used for "DLC"?

I usually take DLC to mean direct lift control, for the most part done using spoilers. I would use compressors for BLC (boundarylayer control).

Stargazer · 18 May 2012

A faded color photo of the MAI Foton:

Triton · 10 September 2012

Were the Aeroprogress/ROKS-Aero projects to be manufactured by Sukhoi?

Stargazer · 20 December 2012

Triton said:
Were the Aeroprogress/ROKS-Aero projects to be manufactured by Sukhoi?

At least there is an obvious connection with Sukhoi on the T-455 (same as the S-84) and possibly the T-730.
However I seem to recall a connection between the T-101 and MAPO-MIG.
So maybe Aeroprogress only works as a think-tank and then submits their projects to more established companies that are liable to get them into production?

toura · 20 December 2012

Hi Stephan.
A colored foton
Bye

Stargazer · 11 January 2013

A question for all my fellow moderators and senior members (other opinions also welcome!):

Do you think a topic like this one should remain like it is, or would it be better to split by aircraft type?

We have now sufficient material on aircraft projects such as the Sibnia S-46, the Mikoyan 101, the Aeroprogress Strizh or the Photon, to justify the creation of separate topics... but if we do, should we keep this here topic to a minimum and link the separate topics from here?

I'm waiting for your feedback on this matter...

Jemiba · 11 January 2013

Principally a good idea, if there are more than, say 2 posts for a type. Here I would split
into separate threads for each manufacturer/design bureau, although, after short browsing, this
may become here difficult, too, as quite often there seem to be posts with types of different origin.

Antonio · 11 January 2013

That's THE problem. Which should be the ideal criteria to keep designs organized?
In my opinion Soviet COIN is very informative and wouldn't split it by manufacturer

Matej · 23 January 2013

I also do not like the idea of splitting in this case.

x-copied · 16 August 2013

Hello Everybody

Two months ago, I have read a topic in FYJS website, the poster said this was a Soviet unbuilt COIN aircraft project. Of course, that just was a picture, a gouache, may be not true. However, the head was similar to the Kamov Ka-50, was this project really exsist?
links: http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/read.php?tid=952117.

Jemiba · 16 August 2013

You can get an overview of Soviet COIN a/c here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,50.0.html
I've attached the picture from that site to prevent it from being lost.
About the type I'm a bit sceptical, the picture looks like being heavily doctored and I don't
think, that folding wings are really useful for a COIN a/c. But there are experts here
to tell !

famvburg · 16 August 2013

"Unflown Wings" has a pic or two of this aircraft, along with other COIN proposals.

Soviet COIN and light Shturmovik Projects

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