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British VG Projects
- Thread starter overscan (PaulMM)
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overscan said:
I wonder how Tony Buttler managed to miss this one?
The Blackburn P.135 is an excellent example of how a Spey 25R powered VG strike platform would have been intermediate in size between the cancelled TSR.2 and the final Panavia Tornado. The desire to reduce unit costs lead to the entire series of RB.153 and M45 powered design studies, before the final RB.199 was chosen.
I do have to wonder if it actually cost in the more in the end to engineer and produce a scaled down powerplant for a scaled down airframe rather than using the off-the-shelf Spey and producing a somewhat larger aircraft?
Matej
Multiuniversal creator
That is plane! I was waiting how much time does it take, when somebody posts this beauty. 
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Bluesteel,
I know it's not the same but another Barnes Wallis design for a tailless swing-wing aircraft. I photographed it in the Imperial War Museum in Duxford in July 1998. Maybe the F-111 in front of/under the Wallis model should give a size comparison to the viewer - ?
I know it's not the same but another Barnes Wallis design for a tailless swing-wing aircraft. I photographed it in the Imperial War Museum in Duxford in July 1998. Maybe the F-111 in front of/under the Wallis model should give a size comparison to the viewer - ?
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bluesteel said:
FYI: A 1/144 scale kit of the Swallow is under development.
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"Does anyone have the estimated dimensions of the Wallis Swallow?"
Just what can be seen on these pictures :
For the civil version it probably is quite acurate, as a scale is given, so that
fuselage lenght would be about 140 ft (42,7 m) and span with wings swept back
about 70 ft (21,3 m) and 167 ft (50,8m) swept forward. Judging the photo of
the model, I would expect the military version to be slightly smaller, if wings and
engines are basically the same.
Just what can be seen on these pictures :
For the civil version it probably is quite acurate, as a scale is given, so that
fuselage lenght would be about 140 ft (42,7 m) and span with wings swept back
about 70 ft (21,3 m) and 167 ft (50,8m) swept forward. Judging the photo of
the model, I would expect the military version to be slightly smaller, if wings and
engines are basically the same.
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Oh, and Geoff, take some damn pics already!
Matej
Multiuniversal creator
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Judging the position of the cockpit and the more protruding fuselage, it seems
to show another stage of the design, maybe closer to the civil version ?
But it's really good to see it ! Are there any lenght / span data ?
I've one volume of vojenska letadla, too. Interesting designs in it, unfortunately
I can't read it . :
to show another stage of the design, maybe closer to the civil version ?
But it's really good to see it ! Are there any lenght / span data ?
I've one volume of vojenska letadla, too. Interesting designs in it, unfortunately
I can't read it . :
Matej
Multiuniversal creator
Jemiba said:I've one volume of vojenska letadla, too. Interesting designs in it, unfortunately
I can't read it . :
Not a problem. Just scan what you want and I can translate it
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Hmmm ... ??? Maybe a stupid question but reagrding the numerous VG-TSR-2 models which can be found at the what-if forum pages or several displays: Was there ever a VG-version of that beast under consideration or are they pure "what-if-fiction" ???
Cheers, Deino ???
Cheers, Deino ???
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English Electric studied VG in the earliest studies for what became TSR.2, but (wisely) decided not to go down that route.
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Pioneer said:
The sad truth is that many - if not most - collaborative programs have been fatally flawed from inception.
I think it's a mistake to display such blatantly anti-Francophone sentiments, especially when the reasons underlying program cancellations can be so complex.
To be sure, the French have their own national and industrial considerations, but the same can be said of any other country.
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Sorry TinWing if I have offended you!
I am not anti-French at all
I have just stated this in relation to the number of projects that they have been involved in and pulled out of.
Regards
Pioneer
I am not anti-French at all
I have just stated this in relation to the number of projects that they have been involved in and pulled out of.
Regards
Pioneer
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It's true, multinational projects with France as a partner seem to have special problems.
And especially the AFVG, I think, is a good example, that France's partner in such
joint ventures have to be really careful. But France still today has a national aerospace
industry, that is building a fighter aircraft of the 4th generation. Of course, this is only
possible in close co-operation with the government and in fact for other nations it may be
quite a rough way to protect the own industry. But I really don't know, if this way
is better or worse, than for example the british way, as Britain has to call the Blackburn,
later HS Buccaneer the last really indigenous design, first flown in 1958 !
And especially the AFVG, I think, is a good example, that France's partner in such
joint ventures have to be really careful. But France still today has a national aerospace
industry, that is building a fighter aircraft of the 4th generation. Of course, this is only
possible in close co-operation with the government and in fact for other nations it may be
quite a rough way to protect the own industry. But I really don't know, if this way
is better or worse, than for example the british way, as Britain has to call the Blackburn,
later HS Buccaneer the last really indigenous design, first flown in 1958 !
Pioneer, Airbus is the perfect exeption to the rule you mentioned ;D
Hey this is a program in which the french are involved... and it is SUCCESSFULL and they have NOT pulled out
I agree that concerning programs in cooperation, Dassault is sometimes a pain in the...neck (to stay correct) become of its obsession for having leadership. This was not true for Breguet or the public firms...(SNCA-s)
But well this is not the main subject of the thread...
Interesting thread to complete BSP chapter on the subject...
Hey this is a program in which the french are involved... and it is SUCCESSFULL and they have NOT pulled out
I agree that concerning programs in cooperation, Dassault is sometimes a pain in the...neck (to stay correct) become of its obsession for having leadership. This was not true for Breguet or the public firms...(SNCA-s)
But well this is not the main subject of the thread...
Interesting thread to complete BSP chapter on the subject...
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Re: The British/French AFVG Program ?
[merged with existing thread]
[merged with existing thread]
Blackburn P.135
Tony butttler didn't really missed this one, the project figure on the index at the end of the book.
but I would be glad to see a 3-view of this one...
Aparently the M45 engine of the AFVG found its way on the VFW-614 (sorry if I scorched the name).
The adour was aparently a scaled down variant of the M-45 / RB-172.
Tony butttler didn't really missed this one, the project figure on the index at the end of the book.
but I would be glad to see a 3-view of this one...
Aparently the M45 engine of the AFVG found its way on the VFW-614 (sorry if I scorched the name).
The adour was aparently a scaled down variant of the M-45 / RB-172.
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Archibald said:
This was a Brough project, and there is a 3-view in Roy Boot's "From Spitfire to Eurofighter."
If you don't have the book, you could always check out the first post, on the first page in this thread, where Overscan uploaded a 3-view of the P.135. Yes, I had forgotten that is was there as well.
Archibald said:
Careful. The M45 engine that flew in the VFW-614 regional jet had a 3.25:1 bypass ratio, while the reheated, military version had only a 1.2:1 bypass ratio. There also was a projected lower powered turbojet version of the M45. The M45 was an engine family, not a single engine.
Early desciptions of the RB.172 seem to vary wildly, and there was even some idea of civilian variants for large business and regional jets - although this came to nothing. The RB.172 seems to have covered the entire thrust range from just above the Viper to just below the eventual RB.199.
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BAC 583 designs
Following the thread on UKVG projects it is worth mentioning the BAC 583 design of the early 60s. Although I have both Buttler books and Project Cancelled I am still confused by the lack of really good three views of this type. Those in Buttler are very basic. In fact the best images are two distinct models shown in an Air Enthusiast article from the early 70s on swing planes.
One variant of 583 derived from Vickers swing wing and BAC TSR2 work and the model shown in AE is of a TSR type plane in white RN colours.
The second variant, the BAC 583 V, is better covered and has been modelled on the What if Modelers site. This is essentially a swing wing Harrier style aircraft for the RN and RAF.
Following the thread on UKVG projects it is worth mentioning the BAC 583 design of the early 60s. Although I have both Buttler books and Project Cancelled I am still confused by the lack of really good three views of this type. Those in Buttler are very basic. In fact the best images are two distinct models shown in an Air Enthusiast article from the early 70s on swing planes.
One variant of 583 derived from Vickers swing wing and BAC TSR2 work and the model shown in AE is of a TSR type plane in white RN colours.
The second variant, the BAC 583 V, is better covered and has been modelled on the What if Modelers site. This is essentially a swing wing Harrier style aircraft for the RN and RAF.
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Re: BAC 583 designs
Hi Ralph
What issue of Air Enthusiast was the article in ?
BTW the 583 i modelled was the contventional VG one not the VTOL one, but that was based on the drawings in Tony's BSP: Fighters as thats all i had at the time.
Cheers
Geoff
Hi Ralph
What issue of Air Enthusiast was the article in ?
BTW the 583 i modelled was the contventional VG one not the VTOL one, but that was based on the drawings in Tony's BSP: Fighters as thats all i had at the time.
Cheers
Geoff
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Re: BAC 583 designs
I think uk75 means "Annals of the Polymorph" Air International, May 1975.
I will scan in the 583 model pics tonight.
Paul.
I think uk75 means "Annals of the Polymorph" Air International, May 1975.
I will scan in the 583 model pics tonight.
Paul.
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Re: BAC 583 designs
The article features
Type 581 (final submission to OR.346; initial submission was tailless variable geometry design with 4 x RB.153 engines)
Type 583V (tendered to a bi-service requirement; VSTOL development of a VG aircraft developed as a Sea Vixen replacement)
Type 584 (tendered to NATO NMBR 3)
The article features
Type 581 (final submission to OR.346; initial submission was tailless variable geometry design with 4 x RB.153 engines)
Type 583V (tendered to a bi-service requirement; VSTOL development of a VG aircraft developed as a Sea Vixen replacement)
Type 584 (tendered to NATO NMBR 3)
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Re: BAC 583 designs
Alan Clifton used the NASA outboard hinge concept for the Type 581, aimed at OR 346.
Similar configuration used on Type 583 tandem two seater designed for AW 406 requirement for Sea Vixen successor.
Type 583 became designation of a whole family of vg fighter studies
Official interest crystallised on a single airplane to replace both Sea Vixen and Hunter (583V, V/STOL)
One 583V version used a 20,000lb class reheated Rolls-Royce RB.141 Medway turbofan with switched-in deflectors, another the Bristol Pegasus.
In 1961-1962 higher priority was given to the Type 584 submission to NMBR 3. Single reheated RB.177 with eight RB.162 lift engines.
Source:
"Annals of the Polymorph" Air International May 1975
Alan Clifton used the NASA outboard hinge concept for the Type 581, aimed at OR 346.
Similar configuration used on Type 583 tandem two seater designed for AW 406 requirement for Sea Vixen successor.
Type 583 became designation of a whole family of vg fighter studies
Official interest crystallised on a single airplane to replace both Sea Vixen and Hunter (583V, V/STOL)
One 583V version used a 20,000lb class reheated Rolls-Royce RB.141 Medway turbofan with switched-in deflectors, another the Bristol Pegasus.
In 1961-1962 higher priority was given to the Type 584 submission to NMBR 3. Single reheated RB.177 with eight RB.162 lift engines.
Source:
"Annals of the Polymorph" Air International May 1975
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Buttler is your friend, always.Bombers,P.119/T.581:RB.142;Fighters,P.117/T.583:RB.153;P.118/T.583V RB.141,or P.122, RB.168(Spey!)
Prof.Willi Messerschmitt in 1969-71 roamed MBB/Ottobrunn and Panavia/Munich to nurture "his" VG vindication. What had caused his P.1101(1945), Bell X-5, Grumman F10F, Swallows and other UK schemes to lapse was not aerodynamics, but fabrication. Sealing, lightweight pivot, load on the ornithopter outer wing. (Vickers')/BAC 1960s' VG studies had been part-funded by US MWDP and fed into NASA, thus into the TFX Spec, but the innovation that turned a theory into a weapon was by Grumman. Their F-111B wing centre box, titanium, electron-beam welded, was licenced by MBB, who had design-lead on that chunk of MRCA.
Prof.Willi Messerschmitt in 1969-71 roamed MBB/Ottobrunn and Panavia/Munich to nurture "his" VG vindication. What had caused his P.1101(1945), Bell X-5, Grumman F10F, Swallows and other UK schemes to lapse was not aerodynamics, but fabrication. Sealing, lightweight pivot, load on the ornithopter outer wing. (Vickers')/BAC 1960s' VG studies had been part-funded by US MWDP and fed into NASA, thus into the TFX Spec, but the innovation that turned a theory into a weapon was by Grumman. Their F-111B wing centre box, titanium, electron-beam welded, was licenced by MBB, who had design-lead on that chunk of MRCA.
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