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Hi Marko, and welcome. Perhaps HS1216 meant by "finalised" the Rafale-influenced configuration, as opposed to the earlier Lavi style one as seen in the PDF?
Novi Avion / YU Supersonic (Yugoslavia)
- Thread starter overscan (PaulMM)
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Dears folks,
could you tell me about two projects of the mid/last 80's,
I mean the Novi Avion from the former Yugoslavia aircraft industries,
and the Mirage3000, a downsized fighter powered by RB199 engine from Dassault (of course) ?
(please just apologize me about my really poor english)
could you tell me about two projects of the mid/last 80's,
I mean the Novi Avion from the former Yugoslavia aircraft industries,
and the Mirage3000, a downsized fighter powered by RB199 engine from Dassault (of course) ?
(please just apologize me about my really poor english)
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Dynamo7 said:
Always use the search function before starting a new thread, which actually works very well on this site.
Here is the Novi Avion thread, which included an original brochure from SOKO:
The Mirage 3000 has been described as a twin RB.199 powered Mirage 2000 in a World Airpower Journal Article, but no drawings or other illustrations have come to light. It was most likely a Dassault proposal to the UK, before the EAP, having absolutely no known relationship with the Novi Avion.
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Novi Avion (New Aircraft) 1992
Type: Single-engined, single-seat, multirole combat aircraft and two-seat operational trainer.
Program: Yugoslavia's indigenous successor to the Mikoyan MiG-21. Design definition completed by Vazduhoplovno Tehnicki Institute (VTI) in early 1990 assisted by several Western aviation companies, notably Dassault. Discussions with European and US firms on possible collaborative airframe development and possible use of Rolls-Royce, General Electric, or Pratt & Whitney powerplants. Intended manufacture by Soko. All work was reported to have ended in 1992.
Cost: Estimated development expenditure $150-to-$200 US dollars per year throughout 1990s.
Design features: Mid-positioned, delta wings with 46° leading-edge sweep and 3° trailing-edge forward sweep; canard foreplanes with 45° leading-edge sweep; single fin with inset rudder; no horizontal tail; twin "Rafale-type" kidney shaped intakes for high angle-of-attack performance; low-set cockpit. Rates of turn sustained 20°/s; instantaneous 30°/s.
Flying controls: Digital fly by wire (FBW) control system; two-section elevons form entire rear surface of wing; movable canards.
Structure: Widespread use of carbon composites, Kevlar, aluminum and aluminum-lithium alloys, titanium and other advanced materials.
Landing gear: Tricycle-type with single wheels; all retracting forward into the fuselage.
Power plant: One engine in the 100 kN (22,480 lb st) class. Internal fuel capacity 3,300 liters (871 US gallons; 726 Imp gallons); external tanks for further 5,800 liters (1,531 US gallons; 1,276 Imp gallons).
Accommodation: Pilot only, under three piece canopy; 17° downward view over nose.
Avionics: Nose-mounted radar; digital flight control system; multi-function nav/attack system; secure communications and advanced cockpit displays.
Armament: Eleven hardpoints, including two for wingtip infra-red AAMs and one for cannon up to 30 mm; maximum individual bomb size, 1,000 kg; precision guided bombs and missiles.
Text sources:
Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1992-1993 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1992 p. 462.
Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1994-1995 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1994 p. 660.
Type: Single-engined, single-seat, multirole combat aircraft and two-seat operational trainer.
Program: Yugoslavia's indigenous successor to the Mikoyan MiG-21. Design definition completed by Vazduhoplovno Tehnicki Institute (VTI) in early 1990 assisted by several Western aviation companies, notably Dassault. Discussions with European and US firms on possible collaborative airframe development and possible use of Rolls-Royce, General Electric, or Pratt & Whitney powerplants. Intended manufacture by Soko. All work was reported to have ended in 1992.
Cost: Estimated development expenditure $150-to-$200 US dollars per year throughout 1990s.
Design features: Mid-positioned, delta wings with 46° leading-edge sweep and 3° trailing-edge forward sweep; canard foreplanes with 45° leading-edge sweep; single fin with inset rudder; no horizontal tail; twin "Rafale-type" kidney shaped intakes for high angle-of-attack performance; low-set cockpit. Rates of turn sustained 20°/s; instantaneous 30°/s.
Flying controls: Digital fly by wire (FBW) control system; two-section elevons form entire rear surface of wing; movable canards.
Structure: Widespread use of carbon composites, Kevlar, aluminum and aluminum-lithium alloys, titanium and other advanced materials.
Landing gear: Tricycle-type with single wheels; all retracting forward into the fuselage.
Power plant: One engine in the 100 kN (22,480 lb st) class. Internal fuel capacity 3,300 liters (871 US gallons; 726 Imp gallons); external tanks for further 5,800 liters (1,531 US gallons; 1,276 Imp gallons).
Accommodation: Pilot only, under three piece canopy; 17° downward view over nose.
Avionics: Nose-mounted radar; digital flight control system; multi-function nav/attack system; secure communications and advanced cockpit displays.
Armament: Eleven hardpoints, including two for wingtip infra-red AAMs and one for cannon up to 30 mm; maximum individual bomb size, 1,000 kg; precision guided bombs and missiles.
Text sources:
Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1992-1993 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1992 p. 462.
Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1994-1995 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1994 p. 660.
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Novi Avion (New Aircraft) 1992 continued
Performance
Max level speed: Mach 1.85
Max rate of climb: 15,000 m (49,200 ft)/min
T-O and landing run (close air support): 750 m (2,461 ft)
Tactical radius (close air support): 216-539 mn (400-1,000 km; 248.5-621 miles)
Ferry range: 2,031 nm (3,765 km; 2,339 miles)
Weights and loadings
Weight empty, equipped: 6,247 kg (13,772 lb)
Max fuel weight, internal: 2,565 kg (5,655 lb)
Max fuel weight, external: 4,500 kg (9,921 lb)
Max T-O weight: 13,400 kg (29,542 lb)
Max wing loading: 446.67 kg/sq m (91.48 lb/sq ft)
Max power loading: 134 kg/kN (1.31 lb/lb st)
Areas
Wings,gross: 30.00 sq m (322.9 sq ft)
Dimensions, external
Wing span (without missiles): 8.00 m (26 ft 3 in)
Length overall: 13.75 m (45 ft 1.375 in)
Height overall: 4.87 m (15 ft 11.75 in)
Foreplane span: 3.55 m (11 ft 7/75 in)
Wheel track: 2.42 m (7ft 11.25 in)
Wheelbase: 4.20 m (13 ft 9.375 in)
Text source: Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1992-1993 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1992 p. 462.
Performance
Max level speed: Mach 1.85
Max rate of climb: 15,000 m (49,200 ft)/min
T-O and landing run (close air support): 750 m (2,461 ft)
Tactical radius (close air support): 216-539 mn (400-1,000 km; 248.5-621 miles)
Ferry range: 2,031 nm (3,765 km; 2,339 miles)
Weights and loadings
Weight empty, equipped: 6,247 kg (13,772 lb)
Max fuel weight, internal: 2,565 kg (5,655 lb)
Max fuel weight, external: 4,500 kg (9,921 lb)
Max T-O weight: 13,400 kg (29,542 lb)
Max wing loading: 446.67 kg/sq m (91.48 lb/sq ft)
Max power loading: 134 kg/kN (1.31 lb/lb st)
Areas
Wings,gross: 30.00 sq m (322.9 sq ft)
Dimensions, external
Wing span (without missiles): 8.00 m (26 ft 3 in)
Length overall: 13.75 m (45 ft 1.375 in)
Height overall: 4.87 m (15 ft 11.75 in)
Foreplane span: 3.55 m (11 ft 7/75 in)
Wheel track: 2.42 m (7ft 11.25 in)
Wheelbase: 4.20 m (13 ft 9.375 in)
Text source: Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1992-1993 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1992 p. 462.
here's another view, with few pressclippings, 3D model and a aerotunnel model.
On this blog, you could find additional pictures from aerotunel testing.
http://cad-unigraphics-projects.blogspot.com/2011/07/na-plane-jna-90-concept.html
On this blog, you could find additional pictures from aerotunel testing.
http://cad-unigraphics-projects.blogspot.com/2011/07/na-plane-jna-90-concept.html
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Regarding the engine, I have read on another blog that the SNECMA M88 was the strong forerunner, not least because there was definite interest from South Africa for it to power the Atlas Carver. The French would turn a blind eye to what would have been a big order. The blog goes on to say that the deal was effectively scuppered as Yugoslavia wanted far too much to facilitate the deal. So much in fact, that it would finance a great portion of the Novi Avion project.
Not sure how true this is though, although both aircraft were broadly similar in role and timeline.
Not sure how true this is though, although both aircraft were broadly similar in role and timeline.
At first, they wanted to do everything alone, the second phase was the cooperation with Dassault (engine and avionics, but not the CATIA software) the third phase was the inclusion of India in the deal (similar to the joint cooperation with Romania on the Orao ground attack aircraft).
Yugoslavia invested heavily in the modernization of its civilian and military research institutes in the eighties as preparation for the production of NA (a few billion dollars in 1990 exchange rates, including new Mach 4 tunnel). I have a 20 page article, split in three about the pressclippings from the late eighties and early 1990s about the project. The intent was to invest a few hundred million dollars annually for ten years. I've never found any source that says the France would fund the project.
The big question is, how would this aircraft fare on the world market today? If it could be cheaper than Grippen and share no problems with the engine and electronics procurement like J-17 had? How many countries have outdated fleets and have no money for the Rafale or the upkeep of the older fighters?
There is another aspect of the YU-FRA relations from that time, the Aerospatiale's efforts to sell Super Puma instead of the homegrown VNH - 90 project.
Yugoslavia invested heavily in the modernization of its civilian and military research institutes in the eighties as preparation for the production of NA (a few billion dollars in 1990 exchange rates, including new Mach 4 tunnel). I have a 20 page article, split in three about the pressclippings from the late eighties and early 1990s about the project. The intent was to invest a few hundred million dollars annually for ten years. I've never found any source that says the France would fund the project.
The big question is, how would this aircraft fare on the world market today? If it could be cheaper than Grippen and share no problems with the engine and electronics procurement like J-17 had? How many countries have outdated fleets and have no money for the Rafale or the upkeep of the older fighters?
There is another aspect of the YU-FRA relations from that time, the Aerospatiale's efforts to sell Super Puma instead of the homegrown VNH - 90 project.
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While browsing through various magazines, I came across an article from the Yugoslav Aero Magazin N°2 dated March/April 1998. I don't speak Yugoslav but it seems like the article describes various stages of a program known as "YU-supersonic". Several pictures illustrate the article, among which two models depicting the so-called YCY (presumably Yugoslav Supersonic Fighter) in two different configurations. Then two wind tunnel models appear, one taken in Zharkov, the other in India.
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Earlier drawings of Novi avion were made before the cooperation with France. Later pictures show a lot of similarities with Rafale.
Aircraft technical institute (now part of military technical institute) is situated in Zharkovo, a municipality in Belgrade. The concept was similar to TSAGi, they designed,built and tested the plane. After that, state aircraft factories such as Ikarus, Utva an Soko produced the aircraft.
There is no Yugoslav language. For a good part of the 20th century it was called serbocroatian (in Serbia) and croatoserbian (in Croatia). Nowdays it is popular that every former Yugoslav republic has it's own language and church. Slovenian and Macedonian language are slightly different but understandable. People in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro and Serbia speak the same language.There are three dialects and the main difference between them is whether you put a few letters in specific words (example: milk - mleko, mlijeko,mliko).
Anglosaxon parallel would be for instance the existence of Canadian,American, Australian and Newzelandian language.
Although the differences are minuscule compared to the German-swiss german or portugese-brazilian portugese we now have four different languages on paper. Sad.
Aircraft technical institute (now part of military technical institute) is situated in Zharkovo, a municipality in Belgrade. The concept was similar to TSAGi, they designed,built and tested the plane. After that, state aircraft factories such as Ikarus, Utva an Soko produced the aircraft.
There is no Yugoslav language. For a good part of the 20th century it was called serbocroatian (in Serbia) and croatoserbian (in Croatia). Nowdays it is popular that every former Yugoslav republic has it's own language and church. Slovenian and Macedonian language are slightly different but understandable. People in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro and Serbia speak the same language.There are three dialects and the main difference between them is whether you put a few letters in specific words (example: milk - mleko, mlijeko,mliko).
Anglosaxon parallel would be for instance the existence of Canadian,American, Australian and Newzelandian language.
Although the differences are minuscule compared to the German-swiss german or portugese-brazilian portugese we now have four different languages on paper. Sad.
I know that it looks extremely confusing to foreigners (and when you add the fact that for example Serbians use two dialects out of three,plus there are two writing systems in use (Cyrillic and Latin) the confusion is complete). But the fact remains, if you learn one combination (dialect/writing system) you'll be able to communicate with everyone without problems.
Back to the subject, Yugoslavia invested heavily in basic research, material science and the procurement of machines intended for the research and development of the novi avion.
Here's the wikipedia article of the aircraft technical institute with a few pictures of the facilities and wind tunnels.
http://translate.google.com/transla...pedia.org/wiki/Ваздухопловнотехнички_институт
Back to the subject, Yugoslavia invested heavily in basic research, material science and the procurement of machines intended for the research and development of the novi avion.
Here's the wikipedia article of the aircraft technical institute with a few pictures of the facilities and wind tunnels.
http://translate.google.com/transla...pedia.org/wiki/Ваздухопловнотехнички_институт
Matej
Multiuniversal creator
Nice. But what was the reason for that? To show the competency?
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A good question, which unfortunately I cannot answer. It was the only wind tunnel model to be
shown, besides some other models, e.g. of the Utva Lasta 95.
Maybe the reason really was to demonstrate the competence in designing military aircraft.
shown, besides some other models, e.g. of the Utva Lasta 95.
Maybe the reason really was to demonstrate the competence in designing military aircraft.
Yes. Serbia does not have the capacity to pull this project off. But the few billions of dollars worth of infrastructure that was built and purchased for this project in the eighties (mach 4 windtunnel for instance) is still operational. They are pitching for some work.
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That poor model was displayed more in the last two years than in previous 20. The first picture is probably from Air show in Batajnica Air Base, and the next two are form the eighties, VOC (Vazduhoplovno opitni centar - Aircraft Test Centre, or as it is now called TOS Tehnički opitni centar - Technical Test Centre).
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Reuploaded missing brochure from beginning of topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/ebooks/NA.pdf
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/ebooks/NA.pdf
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orko_8
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Greetings,
The below photo was displayed at the booth of YugoImport during IDEF 2015 defence & aerospace exhibition in Istanbul last week.
The poster was at a very dark corner of the booth, as if the company did not want it to be seen by many!
Company representative did not elaborate on the project, except roll out planned for next year.
The image looks like heavy photoshop on a Rafale photo, but after a closer look, it seemed to me like a CGI.
Any info? Can it be a resurrection of Novi Avion?
plus.google.com
The below photo was displayed at the booth of YugoImport during IDEF 2015 defence & aerospace exhibition in Istanbul last week.
The poster was at a very dark corner of the booth, as if the company did not want it to be seen by many!
Company representative did not elaborate on the project, except roll out planned for next year.
The image looks like heavy photoshop on a Rafale photo, but after a closer look, it seemed to me like a CGI.
Any info? Can it be a resurrection of Novi Avion?
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The project was dead in 1990. It remains dead. The country for which it was designed does not exist anymore. There is no money for it. The people who designed it are retired. The people who should have been responsible for it's construction are retired too. Pure necrophilia. Yugoimport SDPR is government's arms sales company. They were really pulling your chain with that rollout comment. If that representative said that to any media in Serbia (or any exYU republic), he would have been dipped in tar and feathers and ridiculed for months.orko_8 said:Greetings,
The below photo was displayed at the booth of YugoImport during IDEF 2015 defence & aerospace exhibition in Istanbul last week.
The poster was at a very dark corner of the booth, as if the company did not want it to be seen by many!
Company representative did not elaborate on the project, except roll out planned for next year.
The image looks like heavy photoshop on a Rafale photo, but after a closer look, it seemed to me like a CGI.
Any info? Can it be a resurrection of Novi Avion?
https://plus.google.com/photos/100656503623824807062/albums/6148449777358502385/6148449889500059650?banner=pwa&pid=6148449889500059650&oid=100656503623824807062
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I have a vague memory circa mid-late 80s (likely 86-88), of being told by my then boss that we - GEC-Marconi Avionics - were bidding for the avionics package on (from context) the Novi Avion. That would have been our normal HUDWAC, probably an F-16 derivative given the scale of fit he was describing, but he gave the impression the bid was for a more comprehensive package than we normally put together, and the one point that really stuck in my mind was that he said the nav package would include stellar referenced navigation, which is incredibly rare as an aircraft technology. Everything about the Novi Avion seems to have been incredibly ambitious.
That was the one time I heard it discussed, and we certainly didn't do any work on it, so either the bid was unsuccessful or the avionics didn't progress past the concept stage.
That was the one time I heard it discussed, and we certainly didn't do any work on it, so either the bid was unsuccessful or the avionics didn't progress past the concept stage.
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