Lippisch glider bomber
- Thread starter AF
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I address to you after the drawing (of which I am the author) posted today
by AF as "Lippisch Glider Bomber". It is taken from a page of my book
"Secret Wonder Weapons of the Third Reich" published by Schiffer in 1996.
It is not sure that this may be a Lippisch design. Dieter Herwig names it
"DFS Bombensegler" in his book "Luftwaffe Secret Projects Ground Attack"
published by Midland in 2002.
To clarify the issue, please find attached a copy of the original article
from where I obtained the information.
Justo Miranda
Reichdreams Research Services
Madrid, Spain
by AF as "Lippisch Glider Bomber". It is taken from a page of my book
"Secret Wonder Weapons of the Third Reich" published by Schiffer in 1996.
It is not sure that this may be a Lippisch design. Dieter Herwig names it
"DFS Bombensegler" in his book "Luftwaffe Secret Projects Ground Attack"
published by Midland in 2002.
To clarify the issue, please find attached a copy of the original article
from where I obtained the information.
Justo Miranda
Reichdreams Research Services
Madrid, Spain
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Cutaway
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Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
I'm not really sure what to make of this. Even though it's from the Daily Mail, could it be a hoax? A glider with a speed of 700mph?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1093499/Hitlers-silent-dart-The-secret-Nazi-weapon-planned-deadly-bomb-att
I'm not really sure what to make of this. Even though it's from the Daily Mail, could it be a hoax? A glider with a speed of 700mph?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1093499/Hitlers-silent-dart-The-secret-Nazi-weapon-planned-deadly-bomb-att
Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
That's the "Lippisch" glide bomber. I was always *highly* dubious about this design...
The drawing style does not look like Lippisch's, nor does the text.
Cutaway said:
That's the "Lippisch" glide bomber. I was always *highly* dubious about this design...
The drawing style does not look like Lippisch's, nor does the text.
Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
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Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
there something fishy about those 2 Yellow papers
the German text is full of Spelling errors like
“Künstliche Lunge“ ((Artificial Lung) means Artificial respiration system)
“Steuerungsglieder“ (Control limbs)
"Durchbruch für den Greifer des Schlosses" (Breakthrough for the gripper of the lock)
"Durchbruch für die Halterung der Trosse zum Ballon" (Breakthrough for the holder of the hawser to balloon)
who ever made this drawings, don't know to wright German and made a literally Translation of it
there something fishy about those 2 Yellow papers
the German text is full of Spelling errors like
“Künstliche Lunge“ ((Artificial Lung) means Artificial respiration system)
“Steuerungsglieder“ (Control limbs)
"Durchbruch für den Greifer des Schlosses" (Breakthrough for the gripper of the lock)
"Durchbruch für die Halterung der Trosse zum Ballon" (Breakthrough for the holder of the hawser to balloon)
who ever made this drawings, don't know to wright German and made a literally Translation of it
Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
In my opinion balloon is a rescue device for pilot (seeing in the last minutes of the James Bond 1965 film "Thunderball")
In my opinion balloon is a rescue device for pilot (seeing in the last minutes of the James Bond 1965 film "Thunderball")
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Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
Michel is absolutely right with his comment and if those papers are sold as
"original documents", we should be aware, that actually there aren't (and
probably never were ) any other sources. I haven't seen any mention, that
Alexander Lippisch was involved in this design, so maybe this was just a guess
due to the planform of the wing. Maybe the annotations were added later, by
someone not familiar with the german language, or at least not with aviation
terminology, but that really cannot increase my trust in these documents.
And professional technical drawings probably wouldn't have been made on this
kind of paper, which can be found in exercise-books. Maybe this could be the
true source : A talented school boy sitting in an airraid shelter, illustrating his
dreams ? ;D
Michel is absolutely right with his comment and if those papers are sold as
"original documents", we should be aware, that actually there aren't (and
probably never were ) any other sources. I haven't seen any mention, that
Alexander Lippisch was involved in this design, so maybe this was just a guess
due to the planform of the wing. Maybe the annotations were added later, by
someone not familiar with the german language, or at least not with aviation
terminology, but that really cannot increase my trust in these documents.
And professional technical drawings probably wouldn't have been made on this
kind of paper, which can be found in exercise-books. Maybe this could be the
true source : A talented school boy sitting in an airraid shelter, illustrating his
dreams ? ;D
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Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
seems that Flight Inernational is taking this serious...ho-ho-ho
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flight-international/2008/12/hitlers-silent-dart-unveiled.html
seems that Flight Inernational is taking this serious...ho-ho-ho
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flight-international/2008/12/hitlers-silent-dart-unveiled.html
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Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
Maybe it would be interesting to know the name of the winner of this auction.
We probably could sell him a lot of other "original drawings", as I still have several
old exercise-books from my father. A good source for authentic paper, the rest
is no problem ! ;D
Maybe it would be interesting to know the name of the winner of this auction.
We probably could sell him a lot of other "original drawings", as I still have several
old exercise-books from my father. A good source for authentic paper, the rest
is no problem ! ;D
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Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
I'd say that selling a fake is a crime - of course, I'm talking of this actual auction, not of Jemiba.
I just wander that no one can say auction holders about that interesting German grammatics...
I'd say that selling a fake is a crime - of course, I'm talking of this actual auction, not of Jemiba.
I just wander that no one can say auction holders about that interesting German grammatics...
Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
It is not very scientific to desestimate an information based on the quality of the graphic material on which it is presented.
Before the time photocopier machines existed, it was usual to copy texts and drawings using a pencil.
Please find attached some examples of known projects published by Fritz Hahn in his book "Deutsche Geheimwaffen 1939-1945", Erich Hoffmann Verlag, in 1963.
It is not very scientific to desestimate an information based on the quality of the graphic material on which it is presented.
Before the time photocopier machines existed, it was usual to copy texts and drawings using a pencil.
Please find attached some examples of known projects published by Fritz Hahn in his book "Deutsche Geheimwaffen 1939-1945", Erich Hoffmann Verlag, in 1963.
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Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
Of course.
It is obvious that the texts were added later on by someone without technical knowledge but with an excelent caligraphy!
Of course.
It is obvious that the texts were added later on by someone without technical knowledge but with an excelent caligraphy!
Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
For those of you who have "The Dream Machines" please look at page 184 and
Max Valier's Trans Channel Rocket circa 1929...
Regards,
Barry
For those of you who have "The Dream Machines" please look at page 184 and
Max Valier's Trans Channel Rocket circa 1929...
Regards,
Barry
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Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
Well Justo,
I don't want "to desestimate an information based on the quality of the graphic material ",
it's the KIND of material, that leads to some scepticism. It's not the ususal kind of construction
drawing, I think. You're right, if copies were made during, that was often done by hand, but I think,
with ink, not with a pencil. If I think positiv about it, those drawings look to me, as made from
memories, maybe to illustrate a design someone worked on, but has no original drawings any more ?
But why they were found then amongst original german documents ?
And why the annotations were added later, When were they added ? Before the docs were found, or
after it ?
There are too many uncertainties to regard them as really trustworthy, as this wouldn't be very
scientific, IMHO.
And, as this auction shows again, there is a large market for such stuff and a lot of money can be
earned with it. And so there's the very real danger, that fakes are produced.
For all of you, who want to know, how this business goes and want to be told in a very funny
way, I highly recommend the german film "Schtonk" AFAIK available in an english version, too !
Well Justo,
I don't want "to desestimate an information based on the quality of the graphic material ",
it's the KIND of material, that leads to some scepticism. It's not the ususal kind of construction
drawing, I think. You're right, if copies were made during, that was often done by hand, but I think,
with ink, not with a pencil. If I think positiv about it, those drawings look to me, as made from
memories, maybe to illustrate a design someone worked on, but has no original drawings any more ?
But why they were found then amongst original german documents ?
And why the annotations were added later, When were they added ? Before the docs were found, or
after it ?
There are too many uncertainties to regard them as really trustworthy, as this wouldn't be very
scientific, IMHO.
And, as this auction shows again, there is a large market for such stuff and a lot of money can be
earned with it. And so there's the very real danger, that fakes are produced.
For all of you, who want to know, how this business goes and want to be told in a very funny
way, I highly recommend the german film "Schtonk" AFAIK available in an english version, too !
Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
I echo the scepticism of many of the above contributers for several reasons:
* Aesthetically speaking, the design "just doesn't 'look right' "
* Also, in my experience, however bizarre or odd-looking, German WWII a/c designs were "Logical".
To my understanding of the posts, this is an aircraft which would simply reiterate the role already fulfilled by the Fritz-X FX-1300 guided bomb or Hs293 [and variants] - and would hence be a superfluous design; which would go against the thinking of a "cash and resources - strapped" RLM towards the end of WWII. i mean, how does "plane + bomb" versus "plane + plane + bomb" sound as a design brief ? I reckon the latter sounds both superfluous and illogical.
That is to say, it is a design which "defies logic"...
I echo the scepticism of many of the above contributers for several reasons:
* Aesthetically speaking, the design "just doesn't 'look right' "
* Also, in my experience, however bizarre or odd-looking, German WWII a/c designs were "Logical".
To my understanding of the posts, this is an aircraft which would simply reiterate the role already fulfilled by the Fritz-X FX-1300 guided bomb or Hs293 [and variants] - and would hence be a superfluous design; which would go against the thinking of a "cash and resources - strapped" RLM towards the end of WWII. i mean, how does "plane + bomb" versus "plane + plane + bomb" sound as a design brief ? I reckon the latter sounds both superfluous and illogical.
That is to say, it is a design which "defies logic"...
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Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
Those drawings probably were examined before the auction by experts and so we
can regard them as authentic stuff from the late war years, I think. The problem
just may be, what we discussed in this thread
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6206.0/highlight,boeing+design+paper.html,
were Scott gave a very good definition of designs/projetcs, that matter and those, that
don't matter. And to me, from all characteristics, this design is one of the latter category.
To my opinion, a problem with such documents is, that just the fact, that they are sold
this way, gives them a credibility, they don't really have, a kind of "... there must be some
truth in it, otherwise nobody would pay a lot of money for it !".
And, another question, we all can ask ourselves : Aren't there cases, we would rather like
to take things for real, because we just want them to be real ? Preferences are different,
of course,but probably many of us are looking for the "sensational new, unknown project" !
(And I'm absolutely not free of this kind of wishful thinking !)
Those drawings probably were examined before the auction by experts and so we
can regard them as authentic stuff from the late war years, I think. The problem
just may be, what we discussed in this thread
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6206.0/highlight,boeing+design+paper.html,
were Scott gave a very good definition of designs/projetcs, that matter and those, that
don't matter. And to me, from all characteristics, this design is one of the latter category.
To my opinion, a problem with such documents is, that just the fact, that they are sold
this way, gives them a credibility, they don't really have, a kind of "... there must be some
truth in it, otherwise nobody would pay a lot of money for it !".
And, another question, we all can ask ourselves : Aren't there cases, we would rather like
to take things for real, because we just want them to be real ? Preferences are different,
of course,but probably many of us are looking for the "sensational new, unknown project" !
(And I'm absolutely not free of this kind of wishful thinking !)
Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
Thanks for the illuminating reply, Jemiba (and to everyone else who participated on the thread you linked me to).
I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to Fora - this being the first that i have ever joined - and have been deeply impressed by the breadth and depth of knowledge of the contributers. That said; how many auction houses possess the expertise required to evaluate - often highly - technical matters such as this design? Even the most sage members of this Forum have been known to be confused on such matters [BTW, i'm not saying that it is an outright fake]
Could it be that a "superfluous design" is one that "doesn't matter"?
I like to kid myself that i'm Objective about the " sensational previously undiscovered" designs... but i doubt that i am ever entirely so
________________________________________________________________________________________________
i think i'll Shush, now :-\
Thanks for the illuminating reply, Jemiba (and to everyone else who participated on the thread you linked me to).
I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to Fora - this being the first that i have ever joined - and have been deeply impressed by the breadth and depth of knowledge of the contributers. That said; how many auction houses possess the expertise required to evaluate - often highly - technical matters such as this design? Even the most sage members of this Forum have been known to be confused on such matters [BTW, i'm not saying that it is an outright fake]
Could it be that a "superfluous design" is one that "doesn't matter"?
I like to kid myself that i'm Objective about the " sensational previously undiscovered" designs... but i doubt that i am ever entirely so
________________________________________________________________________________________________
i think i'll Shush, now :-\
lastdingo
Blogger http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de/
Re: Hitler's "Silent Dart" 700+mph flying bomb plans discovered
The first drawings in this thread look extremely similar to Messerschmidt's "Libelle" project, a fighter design with v-tail.
http://www.luft46.com/mess/melibel.html
The first drawings in this thread look extremely similar to Messerschmidt's "Libelle" project, a fighter design with v-tail.
http://www.luft46.com/mess/melibel.html
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I've merged the two topics about the allegedly Lippisch design, after splitting the discussion about the
manned V2.
Motocar, if you meant the latter, just tell me, would move your post then. But if you meant the Lippisch
glider, perhaps using your talent on a better proven design would be a good idea ?
manned V2.
Motocar, if you meant the latter, just tell me, would move your post then. But if you meant the Lippisch
glider, perhaps using your talent on a better proven design would be a good idea ?
1946
Photos and drawings for discussion purposes only.
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I think Lippisch and DFS are incorrect, or they copied used the Max Valier design, or another person plagiarized Max Valier and gave credit to Lippisch or DFS.
Here is the Max Valier drawing of the same shape (powered by a small rocket) from 1928: the Valier RF-1 (rocket plane 1). Left Photo: Concept drawing for the RF-1 (1928). Right Photo: RAK-FL-1 Rocket powered model plane (1929).
Here is the Max Valier drawing of the same shape (powered by a small rocket) from 1928: the Valier RF-1 (rocket plane 1). Left Photo: Concept drawing for the RF-1 (1928). Right Photo: RAK-FL-1 Rocket powered model plane (1929).
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Tonton-42
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I am really struck by the shape of the drift very similar to that drawn by René Couzinet around the same period (1928) for his three engined "Arc-en-ciel" (Rainbow) despite a proven lack of efficiency on its aircraft and which he never wanted to change the shape which led to adding "pig ears" on the horizontal planes in order to obtain sufficient yaw stiffness. One can think that here in the drawing of Max Vallier the length of the lever arm made it possible to obtain a sufficient volume of drift ...
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