UK SST projects

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starviking

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hesham said:
Hi,

Unknown SST project.

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955%20-%200213.pdf
Click to expand...

Hi Hesham,

I don't think that can be called a project, as it says 'possible layout' in the picture. It's just some informed speculation on the part of the author.

Starviking
 
Oh Hesham, what a "blast-from-the-past"! The modelmaking factory where I used to be Production Manager used to churn out models of these SSTs by the hundreds in 1/200 scale; a sort of "Daughter-of-Concorde" design....... ;D

All best, Terry, (Caravellarella).
 
Hi,

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1961/1961%20-%200559.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1961/1961%20-%200816.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1961/1961%20-%200817.html
 

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hesham said:
Hi,

the Aerospatiale and BAe SST aircraft project.
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1990/1990%20-%201383.html
Click to expand...

I believe she was gonna be called "Alliance"
 
No they were only designing the undercariage for the Avro 730 - I have posted that before...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2450.0/highlight,avro+730.html

Regards,
Barry
 
The "Electro-Hydraulics" SST is pure Mk2 Avro 730 , minus outer wings (misinformation?, given how secret it was in '57), plus windows. Possibly the Avro 735?

The u/c for the Mk1 730 (1955, reconaissance only) was designed by Dowty. So far as I know absolutely no detail drawings or reports etc for the Mk2 recce/bomber have survived?? (sorry, should this switch threads?)
 
Both observations and query from above post answered by a look at the Avro 730 and O.R.330 threads. Next time I will do it Before posting!
 
Hi,

also the UK VG SST projects.
 

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Bristol-Siddeley wasn't satisfied with just Mach 3 ! ;)
In AERO 10/1982 a concept for a Mach 7 Airliner was shown,
the lower aircraft is just used for launching the upper one, a modern
version of the Short Mayo Composite !
 

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Bristol-Siddeley SST concept artwork photograph

URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/SUPERSONIC-GIANT-DELTA-WING-CRAFT-PHOTO-1959_W0QQitemZ380208475736QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item588630ee58

Attached to the back of the photograph of the concept artwork:

SUPERSONIC GIANT

NEW YORK: Capable of flying 130 passengers, from London to New York in 98 minutes, or from New York to Los Angeles in 70 minutes, this giant model airliner could be the plane of the future. Engineers at Bristol-Siddeley Engines, Ltd., the British aviation firm that conceived the plane, said the delta-wing craft could be produced with today's technical know-how. The plane would be powered by a combination of eight or more turbojet engines, such as used on conventional jet planes, and ramjets, now used to power missiles.

UPI PHOTO 6/15/59
Click to expand...
 

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hesham said:
Hi,

here is the Handley Page's idea of a possible laminarized M2.2 airliner of 1958,
may be it was HP.109.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1960/1960%20-%202002.html?search=jet%20helicopter
Click to expand...

And here is the Handley Page HP.109 and Bristol Type-198 SST
aircraft.
 

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Hi,

the RAE and Handley Page SST aircraft.

http://books.google.com.eg/books?id=VzNUJlX7CXoC&pg=PP1&dq=concorde+story&lr=&num=100&as_brr=3&as_pt=BOOKS&cd=2#v=onepage&q&f=true
 

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Lowest drawing should be a Hawker Siddeley
SST project with 24 engines.No type number.

source:Faster than Sound-Bill Gunston.PSL 1992.
 
Don't forget Barnes Wallis designs, for example the Vickers Swallow.

http://www.sirbarneswallis.com/Supersonics.htm
 
Hi,

here is two supersonic transport aircraft project from Avro
Heritage site,Avro-735 and Avro-760.
 

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Electo-Hydraulics of Warrington were a well known manufacturer of landing gear, closely associated with H-P and Avro. Many of their staff joined AP in the early 70s.
 
Hi,


here is the BAe and DASA joint SST project of early 1990s.


http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1994/1994%20-%200959.html
 

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My dear Retrofit,


all I know about it,it was six engined supersonic transport aircraft,and its work
done by Avro Canada.
 

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From Flieger Revue 5/1977,


here is the BAC Mach-3 hydrogen fueled double deck supersonic transport aircraft
project,it had ogee-wing,low cockpit and a large tail fin,powered may be by four
engined and could carry 500 passenger,did we speak about it before,it's shape
is familiar.
 

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... and hydrogen fueled, so may be that fuselage wasn't just that voluminous
because of the large number of pax.
 
Jemiba said:
... and hydrogen fueled, so may be that fuselage wasn't just that voluminous
because of the large number of pax.
Click to expand...


Yes my dear Jermiba,


indeed,very strange design,it is not even mention in the Tony Buttler book about British
hypersonic aircraft ?.
 
hesham said:
From Flieger Revue 5/1977,


here is the BAC Mach-3 hydrogen fueled double deck supersonic transport aircraft
project,it had ogee-wing,low cockpit and a large tail fin,powered may be by four
engined and could carry 500 passenger,did we speak about it before,it's shape
is familiar.
Click to expand...


I remember that,in my Arabic magazines,there is an artist drawing with color to
this beast with more info,but hard to find.
 
Hi,

was that aircraft belonged to Hawker (APG.1003) ?,a very strange concept for 2.2 Mach
airliner.


http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a155604.pdf


from long time ago,I knew Hawker APG.1000,it was a six-engined SST airliner project,
and here is a more info about APG.1003.
 

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Last edited by a moderator:
hesham said:
hesham said:
was that aircraft belonged to Hawker (APG.1003) ?,a very strange concept for 2.2 Mach
airliner.
Click to expand...


Yes,it was Hawker design,


from long time ago,I knew Hawker APG.1000,it was a six-engined SST airliner project,
and here is a more info about APG.1003.
Click to expand...

From Air Fan Hors-Series Concorde,

maybe this was Hawker APG.1000 ?.
 

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Hi,

Mr. Sydney Camm was Chief designer of Hawker company,and he created a 4 Mach SST
Project in mid of 1960s,does anyone know this concept ?.
 
Well, by the mid 1960s designs came under the Hawker Siddeley name and not Hawker. Secondly although Camm still held the title Chief Designer he had long since ceased to create designs, he retired in 1965, age 72, and died the following year.
Hawker Siddeley's advanced project team undertook various studies into supersonic aircraft in the 1960s but none ever reached the stage where they could be called projects. A number of high-Mach concepts, mostly experimental but including one transport, are covered in Chris Gibson and Tony Buttler's British Secret Projects: Hypersonics, Ramjets & Missiles

edited to correct authors' names
 
Of course I know that;

but in APD or APG Series,a tens of unknown Projects still mysteries.
 
If you truly know that then you should realise that advanced research studies are not all projects. If Chris and Tony have not located data on specific designs then it is most likely that none exist.
 
Schneiderman said:
If you truly know that then you should realise that advanced research studies are not all projects. If Chris and Tony have not located data on specific designs then it is most likely that none exist.
Click to expand...

I disagree, and I think Hesham may be right. There are certainly Hawker Siddeley Advanced Projects Group projects that haven't been covered by Chris or Tony. I recall an APG brochure that turned up on eBay some time ago which detailed a family of variable geometry air-launched nuclear missile carriers I'd never seen before. And the APG was responsible for all HSA's space work too - the surface of which I only scratched with British Secret Projects 5.
My understanding is that the Science Museum holds the APG's papers and many of them are still classified. What we have in designs such as the Type 1019 series is what's freely available at the National Archives in London and elsewhere. There's more to come/be discovered, I'm sure of it, though how many years we'll have to wait for it I'm uncertain.
Incidentally, chapter 16 of British Secret Projects: Hypersonics, Ramjets and Missiles has some inaccuracies which I endeavoured to resolve in BSP 5. For example, the whole thing labours under the misapprehension that it was the 'Advanced Projects Department' (hence APD) but it was in fact the Advanced Projects Group - APG. All of its report serial numbers begin with 'APG' and its designs had type numbers. Nothing was ever called APD1019 or APD anything - that's just a mistake.
The original documents clearly show 'Type 1019/A1, Type 1019/A3 etc. etc. Oddly, if you look towards the back of chapter 16, you'll see that APG and Advanced Projects Group does actually make an appearance in both a caption and a paragraph of text. It's as though someone was sub-editing the text, noticed that both APD and APG get mentioned, and attempted to make it consistent by changing everything to 'APD'... but then failed to notice/correct those last few mentions of APG.
 
A fair call but I would prefer to see some reason why it is believed that part of HS may have been working on concepts for a Mach 4 civil airliner. If there is indeed a suggestion that work was done on such an aircraft, which presumably Hesham has seen, it would be good to start by stating the source, which could then serve as a starting point for deeper investigation. However I remain sceptical that there was anything beyond the ubiquitous conceptual artwork, not least because there is no particular reason that I can see why work on such an aircraft would remain classified after 50 years when more advanced hypersonic work is now in the public domain.
Lets start with a sensible description and a source for the suggestion and then see what happens.
 
Schneiderman said:
A fair call but I would prefer to see some reason why it is believed that part of HS may have been working on concepts for a Mach 4 civil airliner. If there is indeed a suggestion that work was done on such an aircraft, which presumably Hesham has seen, it would be good to start by stating the source, which could then serve as a starting point for deeper investigation. However I remain sceptical that there was anything beyond the ubiquitous conceptual artwork, not least because there is no particular reason that I can see why work on such an aircraft would remain classified after 50 years when more advanced hypersonic work is now in the public domain.
Lets start with a sensible description and a source for the suggestion and then see what happens.
Click to expand...

Mmm. Although the whys and wherefores of HSA's hypersonic airliner work are all fully explained in British Secret Projects 5, which I presume you've read...
 

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