JMSDF CVH helicopter carrier
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JohnR said:
Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution has been interpreted to mean that Japan cannot hold offensive military weapons--this has been determined to mean that Japan cannot have ICBMs, nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers, or bomber fleets. Japan has to go out of its way to create helicopter-carrying destroyers to be used for anti-submarine warfare.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution
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JohnR said:
It makes good operational sense. 12 Sea Kings and 4-6 Trackers is what a typical 1960s 15 knot convoy needs for ASW protection (plus 4-6 frigates) to defend against Type XXI type submarines (Whisky, Foxtrot). So a single anti submarine carrier with such an air wing could provide the air support for the convoy. Also I doubt the cost in Yen, tonnes and crew of the catapult and arrestor gear is so significant. Especially to support a Det of Trackers.
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More info on the 1960s CVH from:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/cv-newcon.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/cv-newcon.htm
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Here is some more information on the CVH-A and CVH-B proposals from:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B5%B7%E4%B8%8A%E8%87%AA%E8%A1%9B%E9%9A%8A%E3%81%AE%E8%88%AA%E7%A9%BA%E6%AF%8D%E8%89%A6%E5%BB%BA%E9%80%A0%E6%A7%8B%E6%83%B3
Translated by Google and then translated again by me.
The CVH-B was to provide protection to a convoy from Type XXI fast diesel submarines. To provide protection against nuclear submarines with higher speed than Type XXI submarines additional air assets were required. These assets were both close support aircraft and helicopter screens forward and to both sides of the convoy. To meet this requirement the larger CVH-A was needed with a displacement of 23,000 tons and an air wing of 18 HSS-2 Sea Kings and six S2F Trackers.
CVH-B
Displacement: 8,000 tons light, 11,000 tons standard, 14,000 tons full
Length: 166.5m overall, 160m waterline, 155mm flight deck
Beam: 26.5m flight deck (maximum), 22m waterline
Draft: 6.5m
Propulsion: two boilers, two steam turbines, two shafts producing 60,000 hp in total
Speed: 29 knots
Armament: four Mk 33 twin 76mm.
Sensors: OPS-1 air search radar, OPS-3 surface search radar, two Mk 63 directors, AN/SQS-4 sonar
Aircraft 18 HSS-2 Sea King.
The CVH-B was designed in 1959 and was to use the propulsion systems of the “35DDG” class (JDS Amatsukaze). The flight deck was to have three landing spots and two elevators of 17mx8m with the aft elevator on the deck edge. Hangar was to be 112.5m long and 22m width (maximum) and able to store all 18 helicopters. In the hangar a sliding, fire proof door is positioned 4m aft of the centre for damage control.
Construction costs were estimated at 10 billion yen with Japan paying 80.5% and the USA the 19.5% (via aid). 27 HSS-2 Sea Kings were also to be purchased to provide the air wing with Japan paying 47.8%, and the USA 52.2%. Total cost of the program was to be paid 62.8% by Japan and 37.2% by the USA. The carrier was to be the centre of a task force with 1 x CVH, 1 x DDG, 2 x DD and 3 x DDK (DE or FF).
In 1960 it was decided to built the fist CVH-B at Chogi but by 1961 it was cancelled. Reasons for the cancellation were economic with pressure provided by the high cost of the 35DDG which reached 9.8 billion yen.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B5%B7%E4%B8%8A%E8%87%AA%E8%A1%9B%E9%9A%8A%E3%81%AE%E8%88%AA%E7%A9%BA%E6%AF%8D%E8%89%A6%E5%BB%BA%E9%80%A0%E6%A7%8B%E6%83%B3
Translated by Google and then translated again by me.
The CVH-B was to provide protection to a convoy from Type XXI fast diesel submarines. To provide protection against nuclear submarines with higher speed than Type XXI submarines additional air assets were required. These assets were both close support aircraft and helicopter screens forward and to both sides of the convoy. To meet this requirement the larger CVH-A was needed with a displacement of 23,000 tons and an air wing of 18 HSS-2 Sea Kings and six S2F Trackers.
CVH-B
Displacement: 8,000 tons light, 11,000 tons standard, 14,000 tons full
Length: 166.5m overall, 160m waterline, 155mm flight deck
Beam: 26.5m flight deck (maximum), 22m waterline
Draft: 6.5m
Propulsion: two boilers, two steam turbines, two shafts producing 60,000 hp in total
Speed: 29 knots
Armament: four Mk 33 twin 76mm.
Sensors: OPS-1 air search radar, OPS-3 surface search radar, two Mk 63 directors, AN/SQS-4 sonar
Aircraft 18 HSS-2 Sea King.
The CVH-B was designed in 1959 and was to use the propulsion systems of the “35DDG” class (JDS Amatsukaze). The flight deck was to have three landing spots and two elevators of 17mx8m with the aft elevator on the deck edge. Hangar was to be 112.5m long and 22m width (maximum) and able to store all 18 helicopters. In the hangar a sliding, fire proof door is positioned 4m aft of the centre for damage control.
Construction costs were estimated at 10 billion yen with Japan paying 80.5% and the USA the 19.5% (via aid). 27 HSS-2 Sea Kings were also to be purchased to provide the air wing with Japan paying 47.8%, and the USA 52.2%. Total cost of the program was to be paid 62.8% by Japan and 37.2% by the USA. The carrier was to be the centre of a task force with 1 x CVH, 1 x DDG, 2 x DD and 3 x DDK (DE or FF).
In 1960 it was decided to built the fist CVH-B at Chogi but by 1961 it was cancelled. Reasons for the cancellation were economic with pressure provided by the high cost of the 35DDG which reached 9.8 billion yen.
Thank you for the information, Abraham.
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Grey Havoc said:
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Triton said:
No problem, thanks for posting about the ship in the first place I had never heard of it and its right in the middle of my interest area.
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You know that first concept looks like some concepts from the 1970s--what was the point of the full-width deck house? I'm assuming it was to save money/space/complexity by eliminating the need for a lower hanger deck and thus the need for elevators, at the cost of reducing the helicopter complement.
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Yeah, it's very reminiscent of one of the Flight Deck Spruance designs that was floated.
One of the less obvious drawbacks of the design is that the door on the front of the island can turn the hangar into a wind tunnel if you open it at high speed.
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At this point, I've a strong feeling that it's a natural stage in the evolution of the through-deck aviation ship. The requirements people say 'we don't need an aircraft carrier, we just want lots of helicopters', the engineers come up with flight decks fore and aft of a full-width deckhouse, then the operators realise that it would all work a lot better if you only had one flight deck, a small deckhouse, and the hangar below deck.
The Royal Navy has done it twice, the US Navy has done it on paper, evidently the Japanese Navy (duck test!) has done it. I'd be surprised if the Soviet and Italian navies hadn't done it too.
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Indeed Italy's first attempt at a 'through-deck cruiser' was a weird layout, an island but plenty of weapons cluttering the deck. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/the-first-trieste.32154/#post-357413
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Early VTOL carriers were so weird. It's like designers forgot that half the point of the flight deck is the deck park.
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Lovely. Are these official drawings?
The hangar packing arrangement of 18 Sea King seems really optimistic, but otherwise this looks like a plausible design. Could do with the bow being plated in a la the US Hurricane bow (some IJN design holdover influence here?). And four twin 3-inch/50s is pretty anemic for self-defense, but there were really no other options at the time.
Not
Not official drawings
These drawings are from a magazine published by an Japanese engineer（岡田幸和） in the mid90s
Not official drawings
These drawings are from a magazine published by an Japanese engineer（岡田幸和） in the mid90s
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This is CVH-B. See post #6 for specs.
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wow that's shockingly forward thinking for the time tbh
if it had been built it's almost trivial to imagine this being modernized through the 1980's for use with AV8s or something
also 29 knots holy moly that's fast for a tiny cv of any era
if it had been built it's almost trivial to imagine this being modernized through the 1980's for use with AV8s or something
also 29 knots holy moly that's fast for a tiny cv of any era
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It's essentially a steam-powered SCS with 50% more power, in keeping with the very first iteration of US SCS designs c. 1970. The USN wasn't interested in this type of ship much earlier mainly because it had enough WW2 CVS with S-2s, while Japan had scrap metal.
The main layout change to me is that the Japanese ship keeps the island midships, which means they had to bump the flight deck out to get a helo spot near the center of motion, while the eventual USN SCS design pushed the island aft and had room for helos near the center of motion without a wider deck.
What seemed to be missed a lot of the time what makes a carrier important to task group or to an escorted convoy. Isn't just the Carrier's contribution to it's defence but the ability to provide maintenance to the escort's helicopters which are arguably a ship's main asw battery.
Love the CVH-B design. Although the US Navy's Sea Control Ship design came 15 years later, there are many similarities, including their general characteristics, size, function and aircraft load.
The JMSDF managed the DASH program better than the USN, but still a drone or two per escort was no match for fielding a dozen Sea Kings and (potentially) a half dozen Harriers. The Canadians had mightily placed Sea Kings on Saint Laurent's in the mid sixties, but that was just one aircraft working from the tiny deck of a 2260 ton, 366'/111.5m ship. Wasps flew from Leander's, which was fantastic, but really a fairly austere system. Blake and Tiger shipped four Sea Kings in what might be described as a limited capability for a huge expense. Italy's Andrea Dorias and Vittorio Veneto seemed a better deal. Maybe the Soviet Moskva as well. LAMPS SH-2Ds were coming online in the USN from 1972, which was great, if overdue. CNO Zumwalt's plan was to field a ship that the JMSDF had conceived and might have employed a decade or so earlier. Multiple aircraft could prosecute different contacts from a more stable platform, and then could return to be serviced in a better equipped hanger. In the JMSDF case, there was the ghost of world war guilt, and reportedly DDG cost over runs that sank their plans (Anyone without fluency in Japanese and access to JMSDF archives can only speculate). In the SCS case it was a tight budget (isn't it always?) and seemingly a fear from the carrier guys that these little ships would siphon away money and support from their big and sexy CVNs. We suffer the same today. Why have frigates when there are Aegis DDGs? Why field AIP SSs when we have SSNs?
The Spanish Armada operated a modified SCS, Principe de Austurias for a quarter century. I would be interested to know more of their experience. The same could be asked of the Royal Thai Navy's Chakri Naruebet, but she seems to be a pier queen that gets turned around every now and then.
The JMSDF managed the DASH program better than the USN, but still a drone or two per escort was no match for fielding a dozen Sea Kings and (potentially) a half dozen Harriers. The Canadians had mightily placed Sea Kings on Saint Laurent's in the mid sixties, but that was just one aircraft working from the tiny deck of a 2260 ton, 366'/111.5m ship. Wasps flew from Leander's, which was fantastic, but really a fairly austere system. Blake and Tiger shipped four Sea Kings in what might be described as a limited capability for a huge expense. Italy's Andrea Dorias and Vittorio Veneto seemed a better deal. Maybe the Soviet Moskva as well. LAMPS SH-2Ds were coming online in the USN from 1972, which was great, if overdue. CNO Zumwalt's plan was to field a ship that the JMSDF had conceived and might have employed a decade or so earlier. Multiple aircraft could prosecute different contacts from a more stable platform, and then could return to be serviced in a better equipped hanger. In the JMSDF case, there was the ghost of world war guilt, and reportedly DDG cost over runs that sank their plans (Anyone without fluency in Japanese and access to JMSDF archives can only speculate). In the SCS case it was a tight budget (isn't it always?) and seemingly a fear from the carrier guys that these little ships would siphon away money and support from their big and sexy CVNs. We suffer the same today. Why have frigates when there are Aegis DDGs? Why field AIP SSs when we have SSNs?The Spanish Armada operated a modified SCS, Principe de Austurias for a quarter century. I would be interested to know more of their experience. The same could be asked of the Royal Thai Navy's Chakri Naruebet, but she seems to be a pier queen that gets turned around every now and then.
Ahh you mean the Thai Royal yacht where Thai Royal family go to unwind and chill while sitting out the next military coup.
Actually the Spanish built SCS Principe de Austurias strikes me as very interesting topic .
Amongst her other claims to fame is she could carry an air group of some 37 aircraft. More then her British counterparts Invincible and her Sisters. In spite of their larger size.
Amongst her other claims to fame is she could carry an air group of some 37 aircraft. More then her British counterparts Invincible and her Sisters. In spite of their larger size.
Take that number with a big pinch of salt. That was not an operational number but rather the maximum hangar & deck capacity.
The USN plan for SCS was 19 aircraft (14 Sea King, 3 Harriers and 2 Sea Sprite) and that is much closer to the real world air groups that the Spanish flew (18-21 aircraft max, of which 8-10 Harriers, 7-9 Sea King and 2-4 AB 212.
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What about the deployment of the four DDH vessels?
news.yahoo.co.jp
Chief of the Naval Staff Saito said.
'Where there were four conventional convoy groups, [the surface warfare group] will be three.
The question is what will happen to the four DDHs, but the ships themselves will remain, so we want to make effective use of them.
The existing minesweepers group, which would be the Amphibious Warfare Mine Warfare Group under the next unit name, has made very effective use of the DDHs when we look at their past performance and training.
Naturally, the minesweepers could have been commanded and controlled by transport vessels, but as communication capacity and space are limited, one of the four DDHs has been dispatched to the minesweepers to conduct operations, training and exercises.
Therefore, based on those achievements, we would like to bring one of the four DDHs to the new minesweeper group (i.e. the Amphibious Warfare Mine Warfare Group)’.
In other words, three DDHs will be deployed in the surface warfare group and the remaining one in the amphibious warfare mine warfare group.
The real reason for reducing the number of DDHs from the Water Battle Group is unclear, but it is a fact that the Maritime Self-Defence Force has lost interest in helicopter-carrying destroyers (DDHs) as a fighting force.
海自の大規模改編、護衛艦隊は廃止されても「護衛艦の呼称は残る」海幕長が明言 DDHの配備先も回答（高橋浩祐） - エキスパート - Yahoo!ニュース
海上自衛隊は2025年度末をめどに戦後の長い歴史を誇る護衛艦隊と掃海隊群を廃止し、水上艦隊（仮称）を新編する。この海自の大改編について、筆者は齋藤聡海上幕僚長の9月3日の記者会見で直接いくつか質問した
'Where there were four conventional convoy groups, [the surface warfare group] will be three.
The question is what will happen to the four DDHs, but the ships themselves will remain, so we want to make effective use of them.
The existing minesweepers group, which would be the Amphibious Warfare Mine Warfare Group under the next unit name, has made very effective use of the DDHs when we look at their past performance and training.
Naturally, the minesweepers could have been commanded and controlled by transport vessels, but as communication capacity and space are limited, one of the four DDHs has been dispatched to the minesweepers to conduct operations, training and exercises.
Therefore, based on those achievements, we would like to bring one of the four DDHs to the new minesweeper group (i.e. the Amphibious Warfare Mine Warfare Group)’.
In other words, three DDHs will be deployed in the surface warfare group and the remaining one in the amphibious warfare mine warfare group.
The real reason for reducing the number of DDHs from the Water Battle Group is unclear, but it is a fact that the Maritime Self-Defence Force has lost interest in helicopter-carrying destroyers (DDHs) as a fighting force.
Japan to Test F-35B Aircraft with JS Kaga off San Diego
www.navalnews.com
The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) announced its helicopter carrier JS Kaga will conduct flight operations with F-35B Lightning II aircraft in California from October 5 to November 18.
The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) plans to procure a total of 42 F-35Bs, along with 105 F-35As. The F-35Bs are expected to be deployed to the Japan Air Self-Defense Force’s (JASDF’s) Nyutabaru Air Base on Kyushu Island. By deploying F-35Bs to Nyutabaru, Tokyo intends to enhance Japan’s ability to defend its remote southern islands, including those near the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. These islands are controlled by Japan but claimed by China and Taiwan.
Japan to Test F-35B Aircraft with JS Kaga off San Diego - Naval News
The JMSDF helicopter carrier JS Kaga will conduct flight operations with F-35B Lightning II aircraft in California from Oct 5 to Nov 18.
www.navalnews.com
The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) plans to procure a total of 42 F-35Bs, along with 105 F-35As. The F-35Bs are expected to be deployed to the Japan Air Self-Defense Force’s (JASDF’s) Nyutabaru Air Base on Kyushu Island. By deploying F-35Bs to Nyutabaru, Tokyo intends to enhance Japan’s ability to defend its remote southern islands, including those near the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. These islands are controlled by Japan but claimed by China and Taiwan.
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