U.S. Navy VTXTS advanced jet trainer proposals

JAZZ

JAZZ

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
11 March 2006
Messages
303
Reaction score
296
Another competition of interest was VTX for a navy trainer to operate from aircraft carriers.
Now if a VTX thread was to start, then we have the Northrop-Vought entry, the McDonnell Douglas entry and the GD TS-81 entry. Any others?
 
Hard to keep NGT, VTX (officially VTXTS) and JPATS apart.

The VTX bidders included an upgraded T-2 Buckeye from Rockwell, the Aermacchi MB399 (I think - it was also offered for JPATS), designs from General Dynamics, Grumman/Beech and Northrop/Vought and then the finalists: Lockheed with the Dassault-Dornier Alpha Jet and McDonnell Douglas with the BAe Hawk (which won and became the T-45 Goshawk)
 
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1980/1980%20-%201712.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1980/1980%20-%201713.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1980/1980%20-%201714.html

VTX

General Dynamics is working on a T-tail design with an all-up weight of 12,000lb, a top speed of Mach 0.85 and a range of more than 1,000 n.m.

Grumman and Beech have teamed to offer a T-tail, twin-engine design. Of note are the intakes with extended upper lips for high angle-of-attack flight

McDonnell Douglas has teamed with British Aerospace to offer the Hawk but is also working on the new design represented here. Engines are mounted in wing-root pods to ease maintenance

Rockwell is proposing a modernised version of its T-2C Buckeye—one of the US Navy aircraft up for replacement—and the new design
illustrated here

General Dynamics' VTX-TS proposal to the US Navy weighs in at less than 12,000lb; has a maximum
speed of Mach 0.85; a carrier approach speed of less than 115kt; and a low-level navigation radius
of more than 450 n.m. GD has teamed with American Airlines and Control Data to offer a training
system capable of producing 600 pilots a year on 300 aircraft
Click to expand...

http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1980/1980%20-%201515.html
 

Attachments

  • GD-VTX.jpg
    GD-VTX.jpg
    65.5 KB · Views: 1,098
  • VTX-General Dynamics.jpg
    VTX-General Dynamics.jpg
    46.5 KB · Views: 693
  • VTX-Grumman-Beech.jpg
    VTX-Grumman-Beech.jpg
    40.3 KB · Views: 655
  • VTX-McDonnell-Douglas.jpg
    VTX-McDonnell-Douglas.jpg
    41.2 KB · Views: 650
  • VTX-Rockwell.jpg
    VTX-Rockwell.jpg
    33.3 KB · Views: 675
I've often wondered why the US forces couldn't standardise on the Hawk trainer. Seems sensible to me.
 
rickshaw said:
I've often wondered why the US forces couldn't standardise on the Hawk trainer. Seems sensible to me.
Click to expand...

It's a simple case of US NIH (not invented here) syndrome.
 
Jschmus said:
rickshaw said:
I've often wondered why the US forces couldn't standardise on the Hawk trainer. Seems sensible to me.
Click to expand...

It's a simple case of US NIH (not invented here) syndrome.
Click to expand...

Please bear in mind all of the mods that went into producing the T-45 for the US Navy. It's a very different beast from the original Hawk. It's also a lot heavier and more expensive than what's required for a land-based trainer.
 
T-45 for the USAF.

Source:
Roy Braybrook, Military Training Aircraft of Today (Foulis 1987)
 

Attachments

  • T-45-USAF.jpg
    T-45-USAF.jpg
    93 KB · Views: 323
Grumman-Beech-Link System 730

(Grumman G-730)
 

Attachments

  • System 730 front.jpg
    System 730 front.jpg
    225.7 KB · Views: 598
  • System 730 back.jpg
    System 730 back.jpg
    14.4 KB · Views: 227
Beautiful! Thanks for making my Monday morning a little less dull... ;)
 
Came across some old notes of mine. They include a list of all known VTXTS proposals as follows:

  • Rockwell T-2X
  • Gulfstream "Peregrine" tandem-seat derivative
  • Grumman/Beech
  • Northrop/Vought
  • General Dynamics/American Airlines (? ? ?)
  • Rockwell NA-424
  • Douglas D-7000 (with British Aerospace)
  • AerMacchi MB-339 (with Advanced Technology Systems)
  • Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet (with Lockheed California)
  • McDonnell Douglas/British Aerospace Hawk

I added triple question marks to the fifth entry because it looks like a typo on my part. There is no reason why American Airlines would have been involved in developing a fighter trainer for the U.S. Navy! Must have been American something, but not Airlines!!
 
wait, didn't we mention this recently? American airlines might have been involved on the training services side...maybe i'm just repeating some wrong piece of information ???



Lockheed/Dornier Alpha Jet (see project's individual topic for large versions)


index.php
index.php




CASA C.101 (see attachment)
 

Attachments

  • Image0038.jpg
    Image0038.jpg
    341 KB · Views: 199
Hi All!

VTX-TS:

GD/Convair Model 603E
Grumman/Beech Design 730
Northrop Model 351
 
The USN adopted the T-45 Goshawk, a licensed version of the BAE Hawk. Was the BAE Hawk ever considered for the USAF competition?
 
Topic split from old NGT/VTX thread.

Here are two other pictures of the McDonnell Douglas VTX proposal that were originally submitted by Jemiba on September 06, 2009 (from FlugRevue 1/1981):
 

Attachments

  • McDD_VTX_02.JPG
    McDD_VTX_02.JPG
    18.6 KB · Views: 282
  • McDD_VTX_01.JPG
    McDD_VTX_01.JPG
    34.3 KB · Views: 246
Greetings All -

A recent find, color artwork for the McDonnell Douglas VTXTS Submission.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Attachments

  • zMcDonnell Douglas VTXTS artwork.jpg
    zMcDonnell Douglas VTXTS artwork.jpg
    298.5 KB · Views: 808
Recently posted by Periscope Film on YouTube, a late-1970s film promoting the Grumman - Beech - Link VTXTS proposal. Included are models and partial mock-ups of the Grumman G-730 airframe.

YouTube - Periscope Film: "GRUMMAN BEECHLINK VTXTS U.S. NAVY TRAINING AIRCRAFT PROMOTIONAL FILM 79584"
 
Last edited:
Mark Nankivil said:
Greetings All -

A recent find, color artwork for the McDonnell Douglas VTXTS Submission.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
Click to expand...

That is meant to be the USS Forrestal in the background. Some of the aircraft that are parked on her deck are interesting. Artistic licence / just in a rush to beat a deadline?

By the way, VTXTS was also known as the Undergraduate Jet Flight Training System.
 
Good Day All -

Acquired a bundle of North American prints off of EPay and these two artwork prints were in the mix. Pretty sure they are North American Rockwell - the HC# on the one ID's it as a North American Rockwell but not as positive about the other one. Key features do not match up with any of the other known designs - intakes and what appears to be some anhedral in the horizontal stabilizer. Wonder if these were internal designs that did not make the final cut to be the final entry.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Attachments

  • zHC81-141 VTXTS.jpg
    zHC81-141 VTXTS.jpg
    848 KB · Views: 189
  • zPossibly North American Rockwell VTXTS Design.jpg
    zPossibly North American Rockwell VTXTS Design.jpg
    907.7 KB · Views: 206
Last edited:
From Rockwell......This was added to my collection several years ago. What is interesting is that this is not a typical resin or fiberglass model, but a rather lightweight hollow-cast construction almost like a formed plex reminiscent of the old light weigh clear canopied NAA models that came from the Floats Company back in the day. BTW We are trying to get a history of these guys so if you have info please share. Model is about 14 inches end to end.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2760.jpg
    IMG_2760.jpg
    1.8 MB · Views: 161
  • IMG_2318.jpg
    IMG_2318.jpg
    1.5 MB · Views: 141
  • IMG_2581.jpg
    IMG_2581.jpg
    1.3 MB · Views: 149
Last edited:
Mark Nankivil said:
Good Day All -

Acquired a bundle of North American prints off of EPay and these two artwork prints were in the mix. Pretty sure they are North American Rockwell - the HC# on the one ID's it as a North American Rockwell but not as positive about the other one. Key features do not match up with any of the other known designs - intakes and what appears to be some anhedral in the horizontal stabilizer. Wonder if these were internal designs that did not make the final cut to be the final entry.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
Click to expand...

Its definitely Rockwell - aside from Allyson's model which proves it, its basically the same design as the low wing design. It looks like they tried two variations from the T-2 "mid tail" position, a high t-tail and a low tail, and went with the low tail.
 
allysonca said:
From Rockwell......This was added to my collection several years ago. What is interesting is that this is not a typical resin or fiberglass model, but a rather lightweight hollow-cast construction almost like a formed plex reminiscent of the old light weigh clear canopied NAA models that came from the Floats Company back in the day. BTW We are trying to get a history of these guys so if you have info please share. Model is about 14 inches end to end.
Click to expand...
Bingo! As Paul notes, you model is a near perfect match to the artwork I posted - thanks!

You truly have an amazing collection!

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom