Northrop pre-ATF and ATF studies

flateric · 2 April 2006

Northrop pre-ATF and ATF studies.
Scren captures are from 'YF-23 Black Widow II Declassified' documentary (c) West Coast Images

overscan (PaulMM) · 2 April 2006

More sketches of the "early ATF" layout

overscan (PaulMM) · 2 April 2006

Northrop 1983 RFP proposals for ATF

overscan (PaulMM) · 2 April 2006

Where did you get the screen captures?

flateric · 2 April 2006

Scren captures are from 'YF-23 Black Widow II Declassified' documentary (c) West Coast Images, but all that stuff undoubtely from some YF-23 promo video made by Northrop Media Services ca.1990

overscan (PaulMM) · 2 April 2006

Is it an interesting video other than that?

flateric · 2 April 2006

Paul - I highly recommend that one. It's an information breaktrough on YF-23 made with participation of Northrop/MDC veterans and Western Museum of Flight staff..
http://www.wci-productions.com/2.html
http://www.wci-productions.com/infopg.htm - here's excerpts from the movie.

elmayerle · 2 April 2006

*chuckle* I can tell from the technology that those two screen caps show events in the late 1980s since I was with Northrop, on other programs, at the time. I've seen at least one other configuration, unfortunately I couldn't copy it, that was a blended double-delta with dorsal inlets that took full advantage of some wind tunnel testing Northrop did on efficient dorsal inlets at high-AOA conditions.

overscan (PaulMM) · 8 April 2006

Patent D295,037, 1985, Northrop

Credited designers include Everest Riccioni!

flateric · 9 April 2006

I'm not sure if that ATF-related, as patent refers to PopMech '83 article on 'French ACX' in chapter named 'Other publications'. Probably El can say if Northrop have some co-operative works with France this time as they have with Germany on ND-102, or it's just cover up. Anyway, on my hard drive these pics are in Northrop ATF folder as well

overscan (PaulMM) · 9 April 2006

I would say it is definitely ATF related. Everest Riccioni worked with Northrop on defining the "supercruise" aspect of the ATF, in the initial stages. So, this is probably one of the generic concepts studied in the early stages. You can see some relation to ND102 and even the YF-22.

flateric · 9 April 2006

Colonel Riccioni? Probably the most famous F/A-22 opponent?

overscan (PaulMM) · 9 April 2006

Yes, the very same

flateric · 16 May 2006

overscan said:
I would say it is definitely ATF related. Everest Riccioni worked with Northrop on defining the "supercruise" aspect of the ATF, in the initial stages. So, this is probably one of the generic concepts studied in the early stages. You can see some relation to ND102 and even the YF-22.

Overscan, this is Northrop TTLA (Transverse Thrust for Lift Augmentation) concept

Sentinel Chicken · 16 May 2006

What's the rationale for deflecting some of the engine thrust laterally just aft of the wing trailing edge?

elmayerle · 17 May 2006

Mainly much greater yaw control and manueverability; such a design could be "thrown around the sky" somewhat more easily.

overscan (PaulMM) · 17 May 2006

"transverse thrust for lift augmentation" implies the primary purpose is generating greater lift, I think.

elmayerle · 17 May 2006

overscan said:
"transverse thrust for lift augmentation" implies the primary purpose is generating greater lift, I think.

I suppose you could view it as an extreme version of blown surfaces, at that.

Sentinel Chicken · 17 May 2006

Well I guess I'm just having a tough time wrapping my brain around how a deflected jetstream running laterally just aft of the wing increases lift. I thought perhaps the core of the jetstream might have made the wing appear larger (chordwise) than it was, but I'd think that the transverse jet would disrupt the air flow.

flateric · 18 June 2006

Northrop 1981 lightweight Advanced Fighter design study

overscan (PaulMM) · 8 April 2007

Northrop ATF concept, 1987, via http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil

flateric · 12 April 2007

A model of a stealth fighter aircraft on display in the Las Vegas Convention Center during the Air Force Association's "Gathering of Eagles," a convention commemorating spectacular achievements in the free world's aerospace development.
Location: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA (NV) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (USA)
Camera Operator: SSGT. SIMONS Date Shot: 27 Apr 1986
via http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil

elmayerle · 12 April 2007

flateric said:
A model of a stealth fighter aircraft on display in the Las Vegas Convention Center during the Air Force Association's "Gathering of Eagles," a convention commemorating spectacular achievements in the free world's aerospace development.
Location: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA (NV) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (USA)
Camera Operator: SSGT. SIMONS Date Shot: 27 Apr 1986
via http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil

Without further comment, I'll simply state that the configuration depicted isn't that far off from one of the designs Northrop looked at intently for the ATF. I got to see it when I worked for and/or with a couple of the folks involved with it.

frank · 12 April 2007

Hmm. Lending some credibility to the "LORAL" & Monogram "F-19" designs? I Also recall that in '82 or '83, Revell/Germany had announced a 1/32 "F-19 Stealth Fighter that was supposed to be similar to the LORAL design, but it was never released at the request of DoD or some US Gov't office. Could this be the reason?

elmayerle said:
flateric said:

A model of a stealth fighter aircraft on display in the Las Vegas Convention Center during the Air Force Association's "Gathering of Eagles," a convention commemorating spectacular achievements in the free world's aerospace development.
Location: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA (NV) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (USA)
Camera Operator: SSGT. SIMONS Date Shot: 27 Apr 1986
via http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil

Click to expand...

Without further comment, I'll simply state that the configuration depicted isn't that far off from one of the designs Northrop looked at intently for the ATF. I got to see it when I worked for and/or with a couple of the folks involved with it.

flateric · 23 September 2007

Another pic from the same paper reminds TTLA concept http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,185.msg1924.html#msg1924

Jemiba · 10 May 2008

NASA studied the modification of the F-16 and F-17 as VATOL, too:
(from Aviation Week 1/1975)

zen · 10 May 2008

If they did'nt call that the "woodpecker" then I don't know what!

hs1216 · 10 May 2008

a "nutcracker" f-18, now i've seen everything

flateric · 30 May 2008

A very familiar names...Yu-Ping Liu to add...feel like gods are coming to us from the skies...

Sundog · 31 May 2008

The cockpit/forward fuselage area on the model of the dorsal inlet fighter looks more refined than what is shown in the painting of it. The painting "version" has more of an F-5 look to the forward fuselage. Hopefully, one day we'll find some good drawings of that design as well as the ND-102's.

Bill, regarding the "diamond" wing design you talk about being confiscated by the ATF guys, is that the one called the "Missileer" concept you're referring to?

flateric · 2 June 2008

Bill - a question if you can identify some of the persons on the pic? I assume Bob Sandusky at least must be here?
Of course if it's not a touchy question. Thanks anyway!

BillRo · 2 June 2008

Northrop got into Computer Aided Design (CAD) as the F-18A program was starting up in 1976 using the Lockheed CADAM system. It was new and Northrop had some ability to modify it to suit our needs. It evolved into NCAD (Northrop CAD) with some 3-D capability and a variant (ACAD) tailored to Advanced Design needs was developed. It could do things like automatically generating an area plot. All Adv. design in the early '80s used this system except Walt Fellers ND-102 project which was done on the board so that he could tweak the lines with his pencil. A large model (about 1/10th scale) was made for the Paris? Air Show. I doubt if the drawings still exist but it is possible that proposals to Luftwaffe and the German Government and Design Descriptions for Dornier with general arrangement drawings are still around.

The diamond wings were on Missileer and the drawing that Overscan posted #33

aero-engineer · 17 July 2009

BillRo said:
Walt Fellers was a key figure by then and the AX program with Jerry Huben and Don Heinze was a result. The P-530 was Fellers baby too with Lee Begin in the Project Office and Jerry Huben responsible for configuration. This evolved into the LWF proposal and subsequently the YF-17.

BillRo

This was in the local paper - apparently Jerry Huben just retired from Northrop afetr 68+ years.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-northrop1-2009jul01,0,5759124.story

http://www.dailybreeze.com/business/ci_12728188

aero-engineer

elmayerle · 22 February 2010

aero-engineer said:
BillRo said:

Walt Fellers was a key figure by then and the AX program with Jerry Huben and Don Heinze was a result. The P-530 was Fellers baby too with Lee Begin in the Project Office and Jerry Huben responsible for configuration. This evolved into the LWF proposal and subsequently the YF-17.

BillRo

Click to expand...

This was in the local paper - apparently Jerry Huben just retired from Northrop afetr 68+ years.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-northrop1-2009jul01,0,5759124.story

http://www.dailybreeze.com/business/ci_12728188

aero-engineer

Interesting; I knew Jerry from when I started on the B-2 back before the program moved into the Pico Rivera facility. He's a heck of a nice guy.

elmayerle · 22 February 2010

BillRo said:
Northrop got into Computer Aided Design (CAD) as the F-18A program was starting up in 1976 using the Lockheed CADAM system. It was new and Northrop had some ability to modify it to suit our needs. It evolved into NCAD (Northrop CAD) with some 3-D capability and a variant (ACAD) tailored to Advanced Design needs was developed. It could do things like automatically generating an area plot. All Adv. design in the early '80s used this system except Walt Fellers ND-102 project which was done on the board so that he could tweak the lines with his pencil. A large model (about 1/10th scale) was made for the Paris? Air Show. I doubt if the drawings still exist but it is possible that proposals to Luftwaffe and the German Government and Design Descriptions for Dornier with general arrangement drawings are still around.

The diamond wings were on Missileer and the drawing that Overscan posted #33

A small bit of correction. They originally were required to use McAuto's 3-D system (CADDE) and bought CADAM to do 2-D drawings from it. They later moved on to develop NCAD which, while it could only do wireframe models and not solid models, was good enough to do the B-2 with (I know, I was there). Of all the CAD systems I've learned, I still consider NCAD the most user-friendly and wish they'd gone to full solids as I think they'd have ended up with a better system than CATIA. What made NCAD development fun was that the group I was in at Pico Rivera was very much the "beta test" group for new NCAD developments and it was a most interesting time.

Vulcan652 · 6 June 2011

I've just read Bill Sweetman's 1991 book "YF-22 and YF-23 Advanced Tactical Fighters: Stealth, Speed and Agility for Air Superiority", and noted an interesting paragraph on p19. It mentions a "survivable, supersonic fighter demonstrator" that, along with the F-15 STOL/MTD (which was built) was planned to support the AFT program during the early 1980s. Quoting Bill Sweetman:

"The other ATF-related demonstrator was never built; or, at least, we do not know that it was built. It was discussed in late 1982 as a "survivable, supersonic fighter demonstrator" and was later referred to as the "critical technologies demonstrator". Both these terms were euphemisms for Stealth. It was possible that the project was terminated, because it was overtaken by the ATF itself; it is also possible that it was carried forward as a black program in total secrecy."

A quick search yielded little information. The only documents I could find that reference the "survivable supersonic fighter" are:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/87981main_H-1240.pdf

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VGL9WkmEvd4J:www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc%3FLocation%3DU2%26doc%3DGetTRDoc.pdf%26AD%3DADA166724+%22survivable+supersonic+fighter%22&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

In the docs it almost sounds like the black counterpart to the F-15 STOL...

Now, I'm not going to try and link this passing reference to any of the many rumoured black projects out there, and I also realise that the public domain is full of documents that don't necessarily show up on Google, so more digging is required. But I wondered if anyone on Secret Projects had any more info on this demonstrator, even if it never got off the drawing board?

overscan (PaulMM) · 6 June 2011

From the second PDF above -

The survivable supersonic fighter, planned to start later, will explore reduced radar cross section techniques compatible with the STOL Demonstrator; aerodynamics/flight control for supersonic, high-altitude maneuvering; closed-loop environmental controls; and airframe/weapons integration (148:173).

Source is Bill Sweetman again - "Part 3: Advanced Tactical Fighter The Shape Of Things To Come." International Defense Review (February 1983), pp. 172-174

overscan (PaulMM) · 6 June 2011

Regarding the idea of a technology demonstrator, I assume the idea was supplanted by the ATF YF-22/YF-23 demonstrators.

Vulcan652 · 6 June 2011

overscan said:
From the second PDF above -

The survivable supersonic fighter, planned to start later, will explore reduced radar cross section techniques compatible with the STOL Demonstrator; aerodynamics/flight control for supersonic, high-altitude maneuvering; closed-loop environmental controls; and airframe/weapons integration (148:173).

Click to expand...

Source is Bill Sweetman again - "Part 3: Advanced Tactical Fighter The Shape Of Things To Come." International Defense Review (February 1983), pp. 172-174

Thanks Overscan, I'll have a look around for that Sweetman article. I agree it definitely sounds like the idea was supplanted by the ATF dems. Would be interesting to see if any studies were ever made of what this aircraft might look like had it been built!

BillRo · 7 May 2012

I was looking in a box for something else and came across a 1983 proposal for a Supersonic Survivable Fighter Technology Demonstrator. Some of these configurations I don't think I have seen on SP before so here are a few scans.

Cover Art

Northrop ATF Configuration Genealogy

Delta Wing F-20

Delta Wing YF-17

P-700 Derivative

Representative Scaled ATF

BillRo

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