US Aircraft in Communist Hands

S

Stormbreaker

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
10 January 2007
Messages
32
Reaction score
6
We know that the US has been flying covertly obtained Russian (and possibly Chinese) military aircraft at locations like Groom Lake since the 1950s, but does anyone have any information about US aircraft recovered by the Russians?

I know the Russians obtained several intact examples of the F-86 in Korea and quite a lot of hardware during the Vietnam War that included F-4s and an F-111. There are also stories about countries like Iran selling F-14s to the Russians and Pakistan providing F-16s to the Chinese for attempts at reverse engineering. And I think there were attempts to re-construct the U-2 after bits of the plane that Gary Powers flew were recovered.
 
I remember only one foto with a cocooned F-4 and a cocooned Mirage (III ? V ?) on a russian military airport, but when and where and in what book/magazine ?
 
I read somewhere that Beriev were assigned to build several copies of the Lockheed U-2, based on the parts recovered from the Powers aircraft. Presumably this was not too successful!
 
Personally I remember F-111 rescue capsule recovered from Vietnam at hardware hangar at our faculty.
AFAIR, some MAI students tried to find its crewmembers via pilots' name markings or a/c BuNo's, but not aware if it brought any success.
Of course, we should mention Lockheed D-21 Tagboard, its remains in a very good shape are still in TzAGI or TzIAM, don't remember exactly.
At least one Regulus missile was picked after landing on the water by soviet sub crew and extensively tested at wind tunnell with engine - last was destroyed at test incident after appropriate oils were not found to service it.
 
I read somewhere that Beriev were assigned to build several copies of the Lockheed U-2, based on the parts recovered from the Powers aircraft. Presumably this was not too successful!
Click to expand...

I have some info about it but it is in Russian (If any member is interested I can email it). The aircraft was designated C-13 in cyrillic letters (S-13 in latin alphabet?). In my info there is a 1:1 fuselage mock-up photo.
 
It was rumored that the Iranians provided a complete F-14 to the Russians for evaluation and quite a lot of the technology found its way into later Soviet combat aircraft.
 
Found the article, I was looking for, it was in Flugzeug Classic, June '02. Besides
the Tu-4, it covers the Kondratjew F-86 Seibr (a copy of the NA F-86, none of
them was finished), the Berijew S-13 (a U2 copy, no complete aircraft was built),
teh Tupol Woron (a D-21 copy) and several missiles. No russian clone of an american
aircraft, besides the TU-4, is mentioned to have ever flown .
 
Though the Kondratjev F-86 clone was abandoned, the radar was cloned and adopted, while the team working on it formed the nucleus of Sukhoi's reborn OKB, and F-86 influences might be seen in the Su-7/Su-9 series.
 
For some info on the Beriev S-13, and a photo of the mock-up, page 13 of "Soviet X-Planes", Gordon and Gunston, Midland Counties Publications, ISBN 1 85780 099 0
 
Isn't there also an ex-VNAF F-5E Tiger that ended up being passed by the North Vietnamese to the Russians? I believe it's in a museum in Poland now?
 
Yes, it was.
 
I thought it ended up in the Czech museum at Kbely.
 
I remember several pages article on F-5 tests in USSR in Samolyety Mira (Aircrafts Of The World). Will check up in the evening.
 
As per Ken Duffey, at least one F-5(A?) forward fuselage is still stored at MAI.
 
Deltafan said:
I remember only one foto with a cocooned F-4 and a cocooned Mirage (III ? V ?) on a russian military airport, but when and where and in what book/magazine ?
Click to expand...

International Air Power Review, sometime around issue 6-8, and it was in the feature about Zhukovskiy.
 
International Air Power Review. Volume 7. Pg 88. Ramenskoye Russia's test centre. Piotr Butowski.

The photo was recorded 11 August 1971

Both aircraft (or replicas, because they're heavily bagged and it can't be seen if they're real or not) lie behind a Myasishchev 3MD. Both aircraft are armed with AIM-9. The F-4 corresponds to a "short nose" model while the Mirage seems to be a V model.
 
AFAIK, the Russians were deeply impressed by the F-5's manouverabilty versus the MiG-21.
 
There are a lot of F-5 aircrafts all around the middle Europe (that came from Vietnam). Yes, one is undoubtedly at Gbely museum in Czech republic, because I saw and touch it many times ;)

I have also detailed article about F-5 and A-37B testing in Soviet union, but unfortunately (for you) its all in Slovak language.

And I can put the "rumour" about at least two F-14 from Iran to more believable information. They were delivered at the early beginning of the 80s after Islamic revolution to the ZSSR. As a counter-value, Iranians received some soviet weapons and spare parts for the weapons originated in the USA (once again from Vietnam). Russians now admit just information about testing of AN/AWG-9 radar, but probably some parts from F-14 are still on Astrachan polygon.
 

Attachments

  • USSR F-5a.jpg
    USSR F-5a.jpg
    30.2 KB · Views: 406
  • USSR F-5b.jpg
    USSR F-5b.jpg
    11.6 KB · Views: 395
Ken Duffey's photos that were published at Key Publishing forum and Berijev S-13 drawing.
 

Attachments

  • mai_07.jpg
    mai_07.jpg
    132.2 KB · Views: 421
  • mai_08.jpg
    mai_08.jpg
    119.5 KB · Views: 399
  • Berijev S-13.jpg
    Berijev S-13.jpg
    35.5 KB · Views: 463
Matej said:
And I can put the "rumour" about at least two F-14 from Iran to more believable information. They were delivered at the early beginning of the 80s after Islamic revolution to the ZSSR. As a counter-value, Iranians received some soviet weapons and spare parts for the weapons originated in the USA (once again from Vietnam). Russians now admit just information about testing of AN/AWG-9 radar, but probably some parts from F-14 are still on Astrachan polygon.
Click to expand...

Interesting. A friend of mine who was a Air Mobility Command flight engineer (mostly the C-130) recounted a story to me that several years ago he was a flight crew that flew into Zhukovsky and noticed an F-14 in one corner of the field partially covered by a tarp and in what appeared to him to be a derelict condition. Most of what I understand about an F-14 in Russia via Iran always seemed to be dismissed by most folks as conjecture/urban legend, but the friend who told me this story is well-versed in aircraft types and wouldn't mistake anything else for the Tomcat.

I'm sure one of these days we'll know for certain, but until then, all we have are anecdotal reports.......
 
No russian clone of an american aircraft, besides the TU-4, is mentioned to have ever flown .
Click to expand...

I would definitely count the Lisunov Li-2 as a clone that flew. With a license, indeed.

And we're not going to open anything about the Tu-144. The original wasn't US anyway ;D ;D ;D
(Really, let's not open anything. Just joking)
 

Attachments

  • Lisunov Li-2 'Cab' in flight.jpg
    Lisunov Li-2 'Cab' in flight.jpg
    8.7 KB · Views: 138
I've not seen any evidence to date of an F-14/AIM-54 transfer. Gennadiy Sokolovsky, Vympel, freely admitted copying Sidewinder (K-13) and Sparrow (K-25) but denied ever seeing an AIM-54.

Assuming your friend actually saw an F-14, its possible it was a mockup.
 
That's just the thing. Everything so far points to no such transfer taking place and I'm more inclined to believe that based on everything out there so far.

Out of curiousity (and not to be argumentative), what purpose might be served by building an F-14 mockup?
 
"Quote: No russian clone of an american aircraft, besides the TU-4, is mentioned to have ever flown .

I would definitely count the Lisunov Li-2 as a clone that flew. With a license, indeed."

Oops, you're right of course in a certain way.... BUT, as you already mentioned,
it was a license built aircraft, and then it was built to original plans, not reverse
engineered or at least externally copied, and that's what a clone is to me ! ;)
The Martin B-57, for example isn't a clone of the EE Canberra ....
 
Sentinel Chicken said:
Out of curiousity (and not to be argumentative), what purpose might be served by building an F-14 mockup?
Click to expand...

RCS approximation, getting a better idea of the return it would show, looking for blind spots/weaknesses that could be exploited - basically, several different forms of threat analysis. I can't prove it, but I suspect the US does the same, if only analytically and with electronic models.
 
Sentinel Chicken said:
Interesting. A friend of mine who was a Air Mobility Command flight engineer (mostly the C-130) recounted a story to me that several years ago he was a flight crew that flew into Zhukovsky and noticed an F-14 in one corner of the field partially covered by a tarp and in what appeared to him to be a derelict condition. Most of what I understand about an F-14 in Russia via Iran always seemed to be dismissed by most folks as conjecture/urban legend, but the friend who told me this story is well-versed in aircraft types and wouldn't mistake anything else for the Tomcat.

I'm sure one of these days we'll know for certain, but until then, all we have are anecdotal reports.......
Click to expand...
When would that have been? Right from the start of the airshows at Zhukovskii, the base has been extensively 'investigated' by aviation enthusiasts, and by extensively i mean just that. Apart from all the snooping around on the ground itself, people have arranged for 'recon flights' by balloon and Wilga to get an overview of the whole complex just as well.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGmBdqxrwbw
 
Fascinating information for me

Had the K.G.B a "Salvage Program" for U.S. Aircraft ?

similar to those U.S. Programs:
1960 USAF "Blue Fly" & "Moon Dust" (lockate and Salvage Soviet Air&space crafts)
1967 U.S. Navy "Have Doughnut" (F-4 against Mig-21 on Groom Lake or Tonopah Test Range)

so far i know Israel played interesting role get a Mig-21 for U.S.
during 1967 War the Mosad convinced a Jordanian Mig-21 pilot on defected to the West
after Israel was finish with Analysis, the Plane went to U.S.

had the K.G.B similar successes convinced a USAF Pilot to defected?
 
what about this image from carlo kopp's site?

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-F-14A-Iran-Soviet-1.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 000-F-14A-Iran-Soviet-1.jpg
    000-F-14A-Iran-Soviet-1.jpg
    104.7 KB · Views: 368
It's a psed FAKE ... I think at the Key-Forum, at ACIG and maybe even here this has been discussed about 1000-times.

Deino
 
Hi all!
Two Phantoms have taken in Vietnam and delivered to MDB.
Also one F-5, and Mirage F-1 used for research work.
Detailed info in "Our wings" magazine published by Avico Press.
 

Attachments

  • MDB in 1968.jpg
    MDB in 1968.jpg
    97.2 KB · Views: 466
  • Mirage F-1.jpg
    Mirage F-1.jpg
    82.1 KB · Views: 449
  • Phantom FII.jpg
    Phantom FII.jpg
    89.4 KB · Views: 458
  • Cover.jpg
    Cover.jpg
    190.2 KB · Views: 366
avatar said:
what about this image from carlo kopp's site?

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-F-14A-Iran-Soviet-1.jpg
Click to expand...

Fake, just like everything else on Kopp's site.

attachment.php
 
ucon said:
Hi all!
Two Phantoms have taken in Vietnam and delivered to MDB.
Also one F-5, and Mirage F-1 used for research work.
Detailed info in "Our wings" magazine published by Avico Press.
Click to expand...

The Phantom and Mirage look more like decoy dummies than real aircraft. The canopy framing is incredibly thin. The Soviet Union's biggest source of US aircraft was the fall of South Vietnam.
 
The "Mirage" is a dummy of a Mirage IIIE version, but the nose shape and canopy size are wrong.
 
Retrofit said:
The "Mirage" is a dummy of a Mirage IIIE version, but the nose shape and canopy size are wrong.
Click to expand...

... and the Phatom II too ?!!

Deino ???
 
June 1, 1963.A ROCAF’s F-86 defected to the china.(Pilot is Flt Lt Ting-ze Xu )
PLAAF's pilot Wen-yong Ge is testing this aircraft.
 

Attachments

  • xinsrc_5520602020916078137865.jpg
    xinsrc_5520602020916078137865.jpg
    56.6 KB · Views: 140
  • 20090411_2d60519a48680e9de73c8qbvUbiRMnX4.jpg
    20090411_2d60519a48680e9de73c8qbvUbiRMnX4.jpg
    45.8 KB · Views: 131

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom