Influence of aesthetics on aircraft designs

Jemiba

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This question recently arose in another thread, so I'll start a new thread for a discussion here.
Are modern aircraft and especially military aircraft really designed only with "form follows function"
in mind. or are there still points in a design, that are based on the designers aesthetic feelings ?
Is it all dictated by aerodynamic, stealth or other functional requirements ? Or is the old say by
Marcel Dassault " If an aircraft looks right, it is right" still alive ?
 
I think "looks right" to an experienced engineer and to somebody else can have very different meanings. After nearly 40 years working in aerospace development I have a hard time looking at a product from a purely aesthetic point of view. I have also learned that my first impressions are sometimes right, but sometimes first impressions (good or bad) can be totally changed by a careful review of the numbers.

Having said that, I was told by a friend of mine several years ago that while he was working on the engine cowling design for a certain new turboprop military trainer the team was instructed by senior management to make it look "macho". Apparently they felt this had some marketing value. The product is selling well today, but I don't know how much that fact owes to the macho cowling.

From my years in light aircraft design I can say that aesthetics plays a huge role in that field. There is a constant struggle between the "form follows function" engineers and the marketing guys.
 
I'm reminded of Kelly Johnson's reaction to the "Hopeless Diamond". (Basically a kick in Ben Rich's ass. :) ) Yet Ben Rich turned out to be right.
 
I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have a good innate and/or well honed 3D intuition, no matter what the project.

The "field" of biomimetics also speaks to an aesthetic of sorts - matter, energy and information seem to have some preferred configurations in variations of themes that we also embody in ourselves and thus perhaps recognize more as our "own" or "of this World". In a sense our purpose, our doing of anything IS the aesthetic, however recognized or unconscious it might be. It will be interesting to see the effect of things like genetic algorithms on our perception of aesthetics and on our "place" in it.

I think aesthetics is way more than appearance anyway. Ideally it starts way before the need to shape anything and ends well beyond a thing being "itself".

Things of "beauty" or "ugliness" also tend to be social constructs. That remains plainly visible across cultures today (one could apply a number of models on it; percolation, tipping points, stratification ...) - and one can sometimes follow more or less faint threads of design "styles" in aircraft too depending on the circumstances. One interesting question is whether that recognition reflects good or bad design practice, or something else. Monocultures don't tend to be very shock resistant though.

In that vein, in military aircraft also adversaries (countries, alliances, companies, individuals) have shared interests (though in open conflict the parties would hardly admit to that ...). One dynamic might be that almost exactly matched capabilities can prove the most destructive overall for victor and defeated alike, so that might drive some of the variation - or "aesthetic" in a setting where the physics involved are more or less fixed.

All this is of course changeable depending on the willingness of the parties to emulate each other and that in turn perhaps speaks to intent ... or disparity of prowess, or the willingness to display parity, all of these ... or something else. Certainly the technologies, whatever they may be, are used to overtly aesthetic effect once they exist.
 
I'm reminded of a current aircraft design project of mine. I wanted to make it high-winged so that it would look nice and smooth across the top. However, I discovered that a mid-winged configuration had a better volume distribution and would therefore be the superior design. It doesn't look quite as good to me, but I'm sure I'll learn to like it given the whole "form follows function" deal.

When it comes to aircraft, I think that smooth curves make for a good-looking plane (Dan Raymer's ATF comes to mind in particular). At the same time, smooth curves tend to be good for aerodynamics. So in that sense, you can get both aesthetics and performance using the same design principles.
 
If I had a dime for everytime I have heard "it has to buy its way onto the aircraft" in the last ten years I would be able to buy several cups of coffee. I think that aesthetics can make their way onto an aircraft as long as it has an element of practicality. I agree with UpForce that function has a way of brings a level of appeal and that "Things of "beauty" or "ugliness" also tend to be social constructs."
 
Jemiba said:
This question recently arose in another thread, so I'll start a new thread for a discussion here.
Are modern aircraft and especially military aircraft really designed only with "form follows function"
in mind. or are there still points in a design, that are based on the designers aesthetic feelings ?
Is it all dictated by aerodynamic, stealth or other functional requirements ? Or is the old say by
Marcel Dassault " If an aircraft looks right, it is right" still alive ?


Aesthetic follows function. If it works, you will convince itself it's beautiful. There is no other explanation for how any human with a brain and a retina can call the f-35 beautiful.
 
In the pioneering years, I think, there may have been quite often at first the idea of the general shape of an aircraft, that was
then filled with deatils like appropriate airfoil and so on, often find out simply by trial and error. Later, maybe up to the end of WW II,
there still were "trademarks" built into maircraft, like the fins, and maybe the noses, of de Havilland aircraft.
Today, the planform of flying surfaces or the shape of inlets surely is more or less dictated by "functions" like aerodynamics or
stealth, but I think, there still are details, were changes won't bring measurable differences.
For example, the shape of cockpit windows in airliners, or even the shape of their noses may be influenced by design,
as long, as there are no measurable disadvantages. For example, the noses of both the Boeing 787 and the Airbus 350
are looking very similar (from what we know today), but the cockpit windows of the Boeing are looking more "designed",
than those of the Airbus. Or is it just another emphasis on pilots view ?
 

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I think you're hitting the nail in the head. Design, even "style" can find its way on a design as long as it does not interfere with the bottom line.
In the case of an airliner, where companies are fighting to shave the last .01% of cost, it is doubtful that something sub-optimized would find its way in the design. You can see that the original concepts for the 787 had more curved lines, and other concessions to style. Now it's a more practical, no-nonsense machine, easier to manufacture.
In the case of general aviation and in particular bizjets, you can afford i think a greater level of style because appeal is part of the equation.


On occasions I have been told by my bosses to incorporate features that make our conceptual designs look more "swoopy", like put some fancy wingtip, or tail arrangement. This is just to sell the concept. i am pretty sure that were those concepts to move to the preliminary and detailed design phase, the aerodynamicists, structures, stability and control, and manufacturing people would intervene to rationalize the design and make it look more functional, i.e., more conventional.


There used to be some sort of "trademark" features in airplanes coming out of the same bureau. For example Sir Sidney Camm put the same shape of tail in his designs (see Hunter, Hawk, Harrier,...), but in a lot of cases it's more a matter of using known quantities. If you are re-using a tail that has already gone through wind tunnel tests on another aircraft, then you don't have to repeat the expense, there are no surprises.


I wish this were not the case, but style seldom makes the top list of key design parameters.
 
I think we can all agree here, really.

Aesthetics are not at the core of an aircraft's design and shouldn't be... but it is always a bonus when they are tossed into the equation.

A lot of aircraft companies have proved that it is possible to design and market an innovative and successful aircraft that is also elegant, stylish or pleasing to the eye.

Rutan aircraft come to mind of course, but also companies such as Diamond, Lancair, Grob, Piaggio, Embraer, and many more have produced highly successful aircraft that have an aesthetic quality to them.
 
The "shell" of Bell's losing design for the Army's LOH competition, the OH-4, was redone at Bell marketing's behest in accordance with the recommendation of an industrial design consultant to create the Bell 206 JetRanger for the commercial helicopter market. Of course, this is a lot easier to do with a helicopter, since the exterior is more of a facade than it is on an airplane. It's the dynamics (rotor and drive train) and tail boom/fins that are critical.
 

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to inspire and amaze... :)
 

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I think the MiG-23 is an aircraft that looks right, but is not really a stellar performer :-\ Love the MiG-23s looks but... not the best track record.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
I think the MiG-23 is an aircraft that looks right, but is not really a stellar performer :-\ Love the MiG-23s looks but... not the best track record.

Never been a fan of the MiG-23 myself... but look at the Su-27: remarkable looks and performance!
 
AeroFranz said:
I think you're hitting the nail in the head. Design, even "style" can find its way on a design as long as it does not interfere with the bottom line.
Just look at Learjets. There's no mistaking them for anything else and it's obvious that branding is part of every Learjet design.
 
Agreed

AeroFranz said:
In the case of general aviation and in particular bizjets, you can afford i think a greater level of style because appeal is part of the equation.
 
Tailspin Turtle said:
The "shell" of Bell's losing design for the Army's LOH competition, the OH-4, was redone at Bell marketing's behest in accordance with the recommendation of an industrial design consultant to create the Bell 206 JetRanger for the commercial helicopter market. Of course, this is a lot easier to do with a helicopter, since the exterior is more of a facade than it is on an airplane. It's the dynamics (rotor and drive train) and tail boom/fins that are critical.

Absolutely. And when I think of helicopters such as the Cessna Skyhook, Fiat 7005, Hiller 1099 or Doman D.10B for instance, I can't help but think that the odd looks may have been a factor in customer resistance to purchasing them, because they were not inherently bad machines. Reversely, the more successful helos such as the JetRanger, S-76, Black Hawk, Enstrom, Ecureuil and others all have streamlined profiles that convey an idea of speed and efficiency that must be a decisive factory in customer choice.
 
I thought the blackhawk's low profile was a matter of meeting strategic airlift considerations. The sleek look imparted by those requirements couldn't have hurt sales though.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
I think the MiG-23 is an aircraft that looks right, but is not really a stellar performer :-\ Love the MiG-23s looks but... not the best track record.


I wonder whether Mig -23 has been unfairly maligned. NATO pilots who have flown both Mig-23M and F-16A and early C models indicate the mig was only slightly inferior in horizontal maneuverability, but was superior in vertical maneuverability, had better acceleration, and superior BVR. This is a fairly credible performance for an aircraft designed half a decade before the F-16 using earlier generation of aerodynamics and electronics.


To be sure, mig-23 had poor cockpit ergonomics compare to f-16, and poor pilot visibility as well. But mig-29's cockpit was just as poor in ergonomics, being essentially identical to that of mig-23 to ease pilot transition. Mig -29's visibility was better, but still inferior to those of F-16. Early mig-29 had the same radar and mission electronics as mig-23, so it's BVR would not have improved.


I also wonder whether Mig-29 really does represent such a huge improvement over the Mig-23 in performance, or whether the soviet urgency to adopt the mig-29 and retire the mig-23 for forward tactical air superiority was really driven by eagerness to embrace the new rather than proven inadequacy of the old.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
...I can't help but think that the odd looks may have been a factor in customer resistance to purchasing them, because they were not inherently bad machines. Reversely, the more successful helos such as the JetRanger, S-76, Black Hawk, Enstrom, Ecureuil and others all have streamlined profiles that convey an idea of speed and efficiency that must be a decisive factory in customer choice.

Indeed ! When it comes to making a decision about procurement, there are human beings, that have to decide. All analysis has
to be interpreted and those interpretations may be influenced, at least unconsciously. Haven't searched those threads again, but
IIRC someone wrote, that the YF-22 was chsoen against the YF-23, because of its "more conventional" look .
 
2IDSGT said:
I thought the blackhawk's low profile was a matter of meeting strategic airlift considerations. The sleek look imparted by those requirements couldn't have hurt sales though.

OTOH the S-70 has not been a hit in the civilian market. They are fairly rare. Also a pain to get to their transmissions.

Stargazer2006 said:
the more successful helos such as the JetRanger, S-76, Black Hawk, Enstrom, Ecureuil and others all have streamlined profiles that convey an idea of speed and efficiency that must be a decisive factory in customer choice.

Having worked in the civilian helicopter field I can tell you that looks has very little to do with what gets picked, and what doesn't. Paint job is about the only "looks" anyone cares about, and even that has utilitarian function. (we operated in hot environments so darker colors were avoided) Its not a decisive factor unless its a millionaire buying a "toy"

We picked Bell because thats what our mechanics were certified for and had experience with. They are also very common and have lots of spare parts and aftermarket, along with good customer service. They also use imperial measurements so the mechs didn't have to lug two sets of tool boxes around. Bell also had helicopters that fit the kind of work we do. We bought a 500 but it was basically a hanger queen and the mechs hated it. Pilots love 500s because they are like little sports cars. IF your helo company is run by a pilot he might pick 500s if your helo company is run by a mech, he may opt for something else.

The news operated Bell Jet/Long Rangers, except when one of them crash and they rented a robinson to fill in in the meantime. I assume the news stations picked bell because they were cheaper to operate. but one of the nice side effects is there are lots of bell mechanics and spare parts support around. SO that is helpful. I think this is the prettiest news chopper of the bunch in our neck of the woods:

KRQE-web.jpg


The local PD picked Bell because the military gave them a good deal on surplus airframes and they were cheap to buy and operate. They then scrapped the Kiowas and bought a European "whisper" helicopter because its quiet and didn't bother the tax payers. They were supposed to get a new one to "create jobs" with the 2008 stimulus but it never happened, even though the money was allocated and yes it was going to be a european helicopter to "Create American jobs" ::)

PHI uses the little euro chopppers the equirels are whatever. PHI and bell are joined at the hip obviously, but PHI got very pissed after the 407 and felt like they were getting "first crack" at bell choppers before all the bugs were being worked out. I guess PHI laid out the law on Bell and said they would no longer be the "experiment" to see how well the first iterations of their products were. No idea on where that went, but I had a mech tell that the 407 was so bad initially in terms of teething issues, they joked about lighting an oily rag in the gas tank and shoving them out the hanger.

The Sheriffs used to own a 500 then some nutjob shot at it, so they needed a "new helicopter" Naturally they had to get a Huey. Talk about an upgrade.

The State police have a Huey as well that is supposed to be for the State polices crack SWAT Team but the old governer had a wet bar installed in it and it was his personal transport. He was very king like. they had a sikorsky 76 but it crashed and the pilot was killed but the state trooper who I knew from high school survived. I don't know what they are operating now.

Robinsons are the most popular civil helicopter out there because they are cheap to operate, and maintain. I think they are ugly as sin, and we call them pretend-o-copters. We liked to whip our cell phones and pretend we were "flying" them like R/C aircraft. they aren't really work horse aircraft by any stretch. Primarily trainers.

We had a local hospital buy a dauphin but it mishapped in the hanger and was done for. They are awesome looking but they are very tiny on the inside, I marvelled that you get a stretcher and have a caretaker in there too.

BK-117s are very popular because they have a really nice interior for hospital work.

I will include more If I think of it, I gotta run right now
 
Thanks a lot TaiidanTomcat for the first hand account!

And, yes, Robinsons are not quite in the same league... Here in France for instance they are classified in the "ultra-light aircraft" category.

The Dauphin is quite an old design already, I guess the later Ecureuil (Squirrel) and especially the newer Eurocopters are better designed on the inside. This being said, the SA 366G2 has been a faithful asset of the U.S. Coast Guard for some thirty years now so I guess they're not too bad in the SAR role.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
Thanks a lot TaiidanTomcat for the first hand account!

And, yes, Robinsons are not quite in the same league... Here in France for instance they are classified in the "ultra-light aircraft" category.

The Dauphin is quite an old design already, I guess the later Ecureuil (Squirrel) and especially the newer Eurocopters are better designed on the inside. This being said, the SA 366G2 has been a faithful asset of the U.S. Coast Guard for some thirty years now so I guess they're not too bad in the SAR role.

Sorry for the bad spelling on the French Words :-[

6929692596_440477b517_z.jpg


Here is the B3 AStar that "won" the local competition for the new sheriffs helicopter. Looks darn nice B) A pilot I have known for years did the eval flights on it, he liked it because it "had power to spare, and Air Conditioning" I don't know how much his recommendations had in the overall selection. However I do know that whatever those reasons were, the B3 was a "lock" to win and the Sheriffs office had already decided on it but in the interest of making things look fair Bell was invited and brought a 407 out to compete.
 
The question came up when an aesthetical design is pretty or well done. I think when it lasts, is timeless and even after 50 years is considered pretty. As an example from the automotive industry: Porsche cars.
 
Reaper said:
The question came up when an aesthetical design is pretty or well done. I think when it lasts, is timeless and even after 50 years is considered pretty. As an example from the automotive industry: Porsche cars.

Yes. But a beautiful design that doesn't evolve becomes boring. Porsches are like Beechcraft King Airs or Bell JetRangers: even if they are great designs they lose all aesthetic interest because a Porsche is a Porsche is a Porsche, no matter what they do to it... and a JetRanger is the same. Neither has evolved much in 50 years. If you want a status car you buy a Porsche, but I guess if you want people to turn around to look at you, you will go for an Aston Martin, a Ferrari or another similar brand. Similarly, a Bell 407 or similar is the choice of those who want a proven design, but anyone who would seek some originality would look elsewhere.
 
I will step out of my cave to comment on this, since it is at the core of what I am doing.

In my opinion, aesthetics is a very important design element for all markets - even military. But it is only one element among others and the type of market drives its position on the list of design elements taken into consideration in the buying process. Obviously, for general aviation its position is not far from the top. Private pilots will never buy an ugly airplane (to their eyes anyway).

For other markets like business jets, airliners and even combat airplanes, it is no longer at the top but it is still on the list somewhere. Obviously when all elements listed above it are nearly equal, aesthetics will clinch the deal so you don't want to overlook it.

Aesthetics also involves several grades: something like timeless and awesome, beautiful, nice, ok, so-so and butt-ugly. When the aircraft is graded at an extreme such as awesome or butt-ugly, it will move its position up by several steps on the design elements list that drives the buying decision. Because or their classical configuration, airliners fall in the middle of aesthetics grades and therefore its importance falls very, very low on the list that drives a buying decision. On the other hand, design requirements (stealth, VTOL, ...) for combat airplanes can lead to new and unusual configurations and it is more frequent to have combat airplanes that turn out awesome or butt-ugly. A case in point is the Boeing X-32 that was so butt-ugly that it became an issue more important than others, and it hurt its chances. You also do not want to hurt the pride of a combat pilot...

Speaking about my own experience, the Diamond D-JET original prototype was considered as deficient on aesthetics, and it definitely would have hurt sales. So I got the job to redesign it, on the condition that its configuration remains unchanged. In the process, I addressed some issues in ergonomics and inlet aerodynamics.

You can see the original on first prototype the left, and the changes applied to the second prototype on the right with a completely reshaped fuselage and engine inlet:
DJETPOC002.jpg

(by the way I picked my nickname Machdiamond many years before getting that job so it is a coincidence)

For the Epic Victory design, my only constraint was branding - it had to have a family look with the Epic LT. But I was free to chose the configuration (top s-duct inlet) which Epic preferred as well anyway.

One of the aircraft I am working on nowadays is a :-X business jet where aesthetics plays a big role because its configuration is unconventional. This is when the designer has the opportunity to be really creative. The exciting part is that it will occur more often in the near future because acoustic constraints makes new configurations compelling, and the latest CFD tools can reduce the risk associated with new configurations to an acceptable level where management will buy into it.

With some new aircraft programs I have been involved with at the conceptual design stage, it was apparent that the designers involved just didn't care much about aesthetics as long as the aircraft looked like what their company did before. If it looks different, they will have to justify it to management, and management will have to justify it to upper management so just forget it. The worst case is when this rule applies to technical elegance as well - I have witnessed this recently.

The key is that aesthetics remains a design language framework for creating a sound technical proposal. When at the conceptual design stage, there are no aerodynamic, manufacturability or weight penalties associated with aesthetics, the original creation will survive the design stages all the way to certification.

-Luc
 
Many thanks for your comment, this is what I had hoped for:
An answer from someone, who is actually working in that field !
As I understand, design still is more important ad design feature, than I thought.
 
Also I can add, that even in actual rocket science some forms for rocket tips were chosen, despite they were technical inferior. Only because of looks. It had to attract managers and they are human beings as everyone. And in this case without technical background.

To hear this it was a big surprise for me, because of big money involved in this business.
 
I am extremely grateful to Machdiamond for his firsthand account as an aircraft designer.

This is also what makes Secret Projects such a special place: the amount of: knowledge + experience + willingness to share = GREAT FORUM.

Thanks a bunch, Machdiamond!
 
I'd say that the phrase "If it looks right, it must be right." was disproved a long time ago. The Supermarine Swift was a good looking airplane but it wasn't that good as an airplane.
 
The Artist said:
I'd say that the phrase "If it looks right, it must be right." was disproved a long time ago. The Supermarine Swift was a good looking airplane but it wasn't that good as an airplane.
Doesn't look that good to me. :p
 
If the looks didn't affect the decision, then the X-32 would have won over the X-35 as it was functionally better, less drag, longer range than the X-35.etc.
 
SlowMan said:
If the looks didn't affect the decision, then the X-32 would have won over the X-35 as it was functionally better, less drag, longer range than the X-35.etc.

Funny, since I heard that the X-35 was the one which proved to be better than the X-32 in most ways, especially STOVL.
 
Kryptid said:
Funny, since I heard that the X-35 was the one which proved to be better than the X-32 in most ways, especially STOVL.

Yes, STOVL was the only area where the X-35 demonstration was decisively better. But Lockheed cheated in STOVL demonstration because X-35 was considerably smaller and lighter than the F-35 as it didn't have to demonstrate weapons bay, resulting a much narrower, lighter, and slimmer airframe than the hulking beast that the F-35 would eventually become. The X-32 had weapons bay and was a closer representation to what would become the F-32 than what the X-35 was to the F-35.

The X-32 beat the X-35 in all other parameters, such as range, cost, and development prowess. If the X-32 won the JSF contest, then F-32A/C would be entering IOC today at a cost below $70 million/unit.
 
I'm no fan of the F-35 but I doubt anyone can make claims about how well the Boeing competitor would have done done at this point in time in terms of performance- much less costwise. Personally i think that whichever aircraft was designed for the requirements would be doomed to failure.
Be that as it may, this thread is devoted to aesthetics, we have an 180-page long thread for this type of discussion.
 
AeroFranz said:
I'm no fan of the F-35 but I doubt anyone can make claims about how well the Boeing competitor would have done done at this point in time in terms of performance- much less costwise. Personally i think that whichever aircraft was designed for the requirements would be doomed to failure.

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/cit-hadingham.html?c=y&page=5

“In my mind, it was physics versus technology,” says Lockheed test pilot Paul Smith. “In the area of STOVL performance, Boeing just didn’t have the physics behind them—they didn’t have the thrust of the engine up and the weight of the airplane down, while we had a technology that made efficient use of engine power, but it was so technologically advanced that it was touch-and-go whether it would work. A month before we were supposed to demonstrate STOVL, we were still having problems with the lift fan that we thought we might not be able to fix. Boeing had done so many cool things, and were ahead of us on schedule so much. It was like the tortoise and the hare.

F-32A/C would be near IOC today had X-32 won the contest in 2001.

Be that as it may, this thread is devoted to aesthetics, we have an 180-page long thread for this type of discussion.

And Aesthetics were the reason why we have this F-35 mess today, the wrong plane won because it looked better.
 
The X-32 had weapons bay and was a closer representation to what would become the F-32 than what the X-35 was to the F-35.

Debatable, since the F-32 would have been rather extensively redesigned when compared to the X-32 (including the inlet, wings and the addition of horizontal tails).
 

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