Payen designations

you come late, but not to late

Thanks Deltafan

Here is an updated list of Payen's designs. I compiled it using mostly this thread and the great Payen page at AviationsMilitaires.net and found it pretty impressive that Payen did so many designs over his long life yet produced so few actual aircraft.


Early collaborations and non-standard designations

[blue]YA 11[/blue] AIRËAU rocket engine imagined using a Beaucarnot seaplane as a basis (1929, not built)
[blue]Br.220[/blue] Bratu three-engined monoplane (Payen worked as an engineer) (1930, not built)
[blue]Br.250[/blue] Bratu four-engined twin-fuselage transport (Payen worked as an engineer) (1930, not built)
[blue]RAP.10[/blue] Chaise single-engined aircraft (1928, not built)
[blue]RAP.40[/blue] single-engine touring aircraft with tandem wings and one 30 hp Anzani engine (1931, not built)
[blue]RAP.60[/blue] training glider (1931, not built)
[blue]JM.10[/blue] three-/four-seat private aircraft (Payen worked as an engineer) (1932, not built)

[blue]SP.18[/blue] light monoplane project (1931, not built)
[blue]SP.190[/blue] single-engined delta-canard light transport/medevac aircraft for 2 crew and 6 stretchers, with 400 hp engine (1932, not built)
[blue]SP.220[/blue] light single-seat fighter design (1932, not built)
[blue]SP.221[/blue] light single-seat fighter design (1932, not built)
[blue]SP.230[/blue] AUTOPLAN delta-canard racer aircraft, wind tunnel model only (also found as SP.23 O) (1931, not built)
[blue]SP.23[/blue] HÉLIO-FLÈCHE derived from SP.18 (1932, not built)
[blue]SP.240[/blue] single-engined delta-canard light transport/medevac aircraft for one crew and one stretcher (1931, not built)
[blue]SP.250 (SP.25)[/blue] delta-canard racing design for the Coupe Deutsch 1933 with two engines combined and contra-rotating pusher propellers (1933, wind tunnel model only)
[blue]SP.260 (SP.26) (K 16)[/blue] single-engine design derivative of the SP-25 with retractable landing gear; first designation the retractable-gear Pa.100 (1933, not built)
[blue]NRP.260[/blue] version of the SP.260 with two Melot ram jet engines; first designation of the Pa-100R ("NRP" for Nicolas Roland Payen) (1935, not built)
[blue]RP.261 (K 16B)[/blue] derived from the SP.260 with fixed gear; first designation of the fixed-gear Pa.100 (1933, not built)
[blue]Pa.268[/blue] first study of the later Pa-22 (or 1935?) (1933, not built)
[blue]PM.30A[/blue] planned version of Pa.22/1R with cockpit moved forward (not built)

[blue]BP.1[/blue] single-engine two-seat flying wing with one 40 hp pusher engine (alternate designation for BP-10T?) (1932, not built)
[blue]B.1[/blue] racing seaplane project with rocket engine (1933, not built)
[blue]P.2[/blue] one seat all-wood light flying wing with high trapezoid wing and single 20 hp engine (1933, not built)
[blue]BP.10T[/blue] single-engine two-seat flying wing with one 75 hp pusher engine (1933, not built)

[blue]AP.10[/blue] UNIPLAN small single-engine private flying wing with a 25/27 hp engine (1935)
[blue]AP.10 V2[/blue] UNIPLAN re-engined with 40 hp engine (1936)
[blue]AP.10 V3[/blue] UNIPLAN re-engined with 90 hp engine; never flew (1939, not built)
[blue]AP.11[/blue] enlarged AP-10 derivative project with 60 hp engine (1939, not built)
[blue]AP.12[/blue] larger single-engined two-seat flying-wing private aircraft with enclosed cockpit, side-by-side seats and one 40/50 hp engine (1940, not built)


Pa designations

[blue]Pa.100 (K 16C)[/blue] FLÈCHE VOLANTE delta-canard aircraft with retractable single wheel and Régnier engine (completed as the Pa.101) (1933, not completed)
[blue]Pa.100R[/blue] version of the SP.260 with two Melot ram jet engines (1935, not built)
[blue]Pa.101 (K 17)[/blue] single-engine single-seat modification of Pa.100 as record aircraft with 380 hp Gnôme & Rhône 7KD Titan Major radial engine (1935)
[blue]Pa.110 CD[/blue] single-seat delta-canard racing aircraft for Coupe Deutsch with 200 to 400 hp engine, derived from Pa.100; project completed as the Pa.110 C1 (1936(not built)
[blue]Pa.110 C1[/blue] single-seat delta-canard fighter aircraft with counter-rotating propellers and 200 hp engine; also proposed to Spanish Republicans (1937?, mock-up built)
[blue]Pa.112 C1[/blue] twin-engined fighter derived from Pa.110 C1 with 200 hp engines and contra-rotating propellers (1938, not completed)
[blue]Pa.120[/blue] other designation for the AP-12 flying wing design (1940, not built)
[blue]Pa.130[/blue] twin-engined postal aircraft design of similar design to the AP-10 (1941, not built)
[blue]Pa.140 (K 60)[/blue] twin-boom two-seat private aircraft project with pusher engine (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.141[/blue] twin-boom two-seat mid-wing aircraft project with pusher engine derived from Pa.140 (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.150[/blue] OTARIE single-engined twin-boom pusher high wing private amphibian project (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.160[/blue] single-engined twin-fin low-wing private aircraft project (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.161[/blue] delta wing canard design, probably derived from Pa.160 (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.170[/blue] single-engined twin-fin high-wing private aircraft project (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.180[/blue] single-engined open cockpit private aircraft project (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.190[/blue] twin-engined design probably derived from the Pa.150 (not built)
[blue]P.200[/blue] twin-engined tandem two-seat private aircraft project with contra-rotating propellers (1938, not built)

[blue]Pa.221 (Pa 22/2)[/blue] single-engine two-seat delta-canard private aircraft; Pa.22/R1 redesigned and built with 70 hp Régnier 6B-01 engine (also known as Pa.220-T2) (1935
[blue]Pa.22/1R[/blue] FLÉCHAIR, a planned Pa.22 version with a Melot ram jet engine (1935, not built)
[blue]Pa 220 (Pa.22/2)[/blue] single-seat delta-canard aircraft with 180 hp engine; modified as the Pa.22/5 (1939, not built)
[blue]Pa.22/3[/blue] tandem two-/three-seater private aircraft project derived from the Pa-22 (1938, not built)
[blue]Pa.22/4[/blue] two-seat private aircraft project derived from the Pa.22 with two wingtip fins and one 220 hp engine (1941, not built)
[blue]Pa.225 (1)[/blue] single-seat delta-canard racer derivative of the Pa-22 for the Coupe Deutsch 1939 with 80/400 hp engine; completed as the second type Pa.22/2 (1939, not built)
[blue]Pa.22/5[/blue] designation of the second type Pa.22/2 with separate cockpit and modified fin, first flown on October 18, 1941 (also found as Pa.22 V5) (1941
[blue]Pa.22/6[/blue] projected enlarged derivative ot the second type Pa.22/2 with larger canards (1942, not built)
[blue]Pa.22/7 (Pa.22S)[/blue] design derivative of the Pa.22 with folding canards (model built for French movie Retour de flamme in 1942) (1942, model built)
[blue]Pa.222[/blue] three-seat derivative of the Pa-22 (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.225 (2)[/blue] postal derivative of second type Pa.22/2 (1943, not built)
[blue]Pa.22 D[/blue] derivative of second type Pa.22/2 with forward-swept canards (1948, not built)

[blue]Pa.240 GR[/blue] single-engine single-seat "grand raid" delta-canard design derivative of the Pa-22, 315 hp engine (1937, not built)
[blue]Pa.240 H[/blue] twin-engine private plane design probably similar to the Pa.150 (not built)
[blue]Pa.25[/blue] racer planned for the Coupe Deutsch 1939 (1939, not built)
[blue]Pa.26[/blue] flyable car/roadable aircraft project (1946, not built)
[blue]Pa.26 G[/blue] single-engined single-seater with circular wing and 80 hp engine developed with Gayral (or 1944-45?) (1946, 80% complete)
[blue]Pa.26/2[/blue] projected variant of Pa.26G (not built)
[blue]Pa.26/3[/blue] projected variant of Pa.26G (not built)
[blue]Pa.26/4[/blue] projected variant of Pa.26G (not built)
[blue]Pa.27[/blue] no details (found in experimental register as F-WFKY, a registration also used by SNCASO's Triton n°03)
? trans-Atlantic delta-wing flying boat transport project with 2000 hp total engine power (1936, not built)
[blue]Pa.290[/blue] single-/two-seat delta-canard private aircraft project (1938, not built)
[blue]Pa.300 C1[/blue] single-seat fighter project with 1000 hp Hispano-Suiza engine (1937, not built)
[blue]P.310 CB[/blue] twin-engined delta-canard fighter-bomber project with contra-rotating propellers (same as Pa 310?) (1937, not built)
[blue]Pa.320 P[/blue] postal aircraft design with four coupled engines and contra-rotating propellers (1936, not built)
[blue]P.321 AC[/blue] four-engine multiplace heavy fighter/light bomber with 4 coupled engines (two nacelles with contra props), 10 machine guns and 12 light bombs (1935, not built)
[blue]Pa 321[/blue] twin-engined three-seat fighter submitted to 1934C3 program (not built)
[blue]P.323 AC3[/blue] design developed from Pa.321 for 1937C3 program, probably similar to P.321AC; led to the P.310CB (also found as Pa 323) (1937, not built)
[blue]P.330 H[/blue] amphibian aircraft project (1938, not built)
[blue]Pa.330[/blue] delta-canard aircraft project (not built)
[blue]P.340 TP[/blue] twin-engined delta-canard transport project with contra-rotating propellers (1937, not built)
[blue]P.350 CD[/blue] single-engined single-seat twin-fin delta-canard racing aircraft with contra-rotating propellers and 150 hp (or 220 hp) engine (also found as Pa.350) (1934, not built)
[blue]P.360 TP[/blue] twin-engined twin-fuselage delta-canard transport project (1941, not built)
[blue]Pa.361[/blue] twin-engined delta-canard long-range trans-Atlantic aircraft project (1937, not built)
[blue]Pa.370[/blue] design probably similar to the P.360 TP (not built)


[blue]Pa.400[/blue] carrier-borne twin-fin torpedo aircraft with tricycle gear and contra-rotating propellers developed for Mitsubishi for Imperial Japanese Navy (1938, not built)

[blue]Pa.42/1[/blue] twin-engined twin-boom transport project with two 300 hp engines (not built)
[blue]Pa.42/5[/blue] three-engined twin-boom transport project with detachable cargo hold, one engine driving the wheels for ground handling (1942(not built)
[blue]Pa.430 CV[/blue] twin-engined single-seat racing aircraft with two 650 hp 14 M engines and contra-rotating propellers (also found as Pa.430 HV) (1938, not built)
[blue]Pa.445[/blue] design probably similar to the P.360 TP (not built)

[blue]Pa.46[/blue] twin-engined delta-canard racing floatplane project (not built)
[blue]Pa.47/1 (Pa.470)[/blue] PLEIN AIR / WEEK-END / AERIA single engined high-wing sports aircraft with 65 hp engine (1949)
[blue]Pa.47/2 (Pa.472)[/blue] former Pa.47/1 with modified wing (1957, not built)
[blue]Pa.47/3 (Pa.473)[/blue] derivative of Pa-47 with tricycle landing gear (1950, not built)
[blue]Pa.48[/blue] became the Pa.499 (1945, not built)
[blue]Pa.48/3[/blue] MARS delta-wing jet interceptor project with one 2,270 kgp Nene jet engine (1947, full-scale mockup only)
[blue]Pa.48/5 (K 50/77)[/blue] projected two-seat derivative of the Pa-48/3 one piston engine and pusher prop , not built)
[blue]Pa.48/6 (K 50/78)[/blue] projected single-seat derivative of the Pa-48/5 (not built)
[blue]Pa.499[/blue] two-seat delta-wing private aircraft project with 100 hp engine (developed from the Pa.48) (1951, not built)
[blue]Pa.49A (K 79)[/blue] KATY small experimental single-turbojet-powered delta-wing aircraft with 150 kgp engine (first flight on January 22, 1954) (1954, 1 built)
[blue]Pa.49B (K 82)[/blue] KATY modified with undercarriage legs were faired and main wheels enclosed in spats (1957, 1 converted)
[blue]Pa.49/2 (Pa.492)[/blue] single-seat derivative of Pa.49 (not built)
[blue]Pa.49/5 (Pa.495)[/blue] twin-seat derivative of Pa.49 (not built)
[blue]Pa.500[/blue] pure delta wing design with pusher engine (1939, not built)
[blue]Pa.50B[/blue] glider project with four SNECMA pulsejet engines (not built)
[blue]Pa.51 (Pa.510)[/blue] AGRICAVIA single-engined high-wing tricycle agricultural aircraft project (1952, not built)
[blue]Pa.52[/blue] single-seat project (1952, not built)
[blue]Pa.53[/blue] fighter project (1953, not built)


[blue]Pa.56[/blue] single-jet delta-wing tandem two-seat trainer project (1954, not built)
[blue]Pa.562[/blue] delta-wing trainer project developed from Pa-56 and using 70% of the parts of a Fouga Magister (1955, not built)
[blue]Pa.57[/blue] ATON twin-jet twin-fin two-seat flying wing project with 750 kgp engine (1955, not built)

[blue]Pa.59[/blue] ALDÉBARAN delta-wing tailsitter VTOL interceptor project (1955, not built)
[blue]Pa.600[/blue] twin-engined twin-boom high-wing transport aircraft project (1944, not built)
[blue]Pa.60[/blue] ARBALÈTE single-engine delta-wing touring aircraft project with side-by-side seating, fixed landing gear and a 105 hp Hirth engine; became Pa.61 (1963)
[blue]Pa.61 B[/blue] ARBALÈTE I, a modified Pa.60 with 105 hp engine; first flown in May 1965 (1965
[blue]Pa.61 F[/blue] ARBALÈTE II delta wing three-seat touring aircraft evolved from Pa.61B with fixed landing gear and a 180 hp engine (1970
[blue]Pa.61 G[/blue] planned design derivative of the Pa.61 F with retractable canards (1972, not built)
[blue]Pa.61 H[/blue] design derivative of the Pa.61 F and G with two side-by-side 160 kgp jet engines (1972, not built)
[blue]Pa.61 O[/blue] projected single-engined 4-seat derivative of the Pa.61 with a 200 hp engine (also found as Pa.610) (not built)
[blue]Pa.62 V1[/blue] four-seat delta-wing private aircraft project with 200 hp engine, probably similar to a Pa.61 with ducted propeller (1958, not built)
[blue]Pa.62 V2[/blue] four-seat delta-wing private aircraft project with 400 hp pusher engine and ducted propeller (1965, not built)
[blue]Pa.62 V3[/blue] planned jet-powered variant of Pa.62 V2 (1965, not built)
[blue]Pa.63[/blue] twin-engine (twin-jet?) four-set delta-wing aircraft project with 300 kgp engine (1958, not built)
[blue]Pa.64 (1)[/blue] NOVAE flying saucer powered by one 350 kgp Marboré engine (1955, not built)
[blue]Pa.64 (2)[/blue] single-jet VTOL aircraft with saucer-shaped wing and a 500 kgp engine (sometimes found as another Pa.61) (1958, not built)
[blue]Pa.65[/blue] OTARIE II hydroplane project (1959, not built)
[blue]Pa.66[/blue] AERAPLANE single-engined experimental air cushion vehicle project with 80 hp engine (1960, not built)
[blue]Pa.67[/blue] MÉNESTREL single-engined ultra-light aircraft project with tandem wings and pusher engine (1962(not built)
[blue]Pa.68[/blue] AÉROCYCLE compound private autogyro with 90 hp engine (1958, not built)

[blue]Pa.70[/blue] single-engined private aircraft project with limp delta wing and 90 hp engine (1961, not built)
[blue]Pa.71[/blue] MIDGET delta wing racing aircraft project with 100 hp Continental engine (1964, not built)

[blue]Pa.73[/blue] AEROBREAK twin-turboprop monoplane transport project with fixed landing gear (1965, not built)
[blue]Pa.74[/blue] AEROBREAK twin-turboprop push-pull monoplane transport project with fixed landing gear (1967, not built)
[blue]Pa.75[/blue] MINICOPTAIR experimental autogyro with 80 hp engine (1968, not completed)
[blue]Pa.76 (K 121)[/blue] Nieuport replica, no details (1970)


Other non-sequential/non-standard designations

[blue]Pa.25 B1 (K 132)[/blue] BÂTARD DE NEYAP Nieuport replica, no details (1977)
[blue]Pa.81[/blue] version of Pa.61 with Lycoming engine offered to Germany (1961, not built)
[blue]Pa.149[/blue] twin-jet tandem-seat trainer derivative of the Pa.49 with 2 x 300 kgp thrust; also single-jet variant with two Palas jet engines of 350-400 kgp thrust (1971, not built)
[blue]Pa 152 C[/blue] VISAIR 1 ultralight plane with one 50 hp Citroën engine (1984)
[blue]Pa.161[/blue] projected tandem two-seat derivative of Pa.61 with canards and 75+ hp engine (1984, not built)
[blue]Pa.171[/blue] projected design derivative of Pa.71 with Pa.49 wing and "Rotax" engine (1992, not built)
[blue]Pa.249[/blue] projected retractable-gear version of Pa.49 made of composite materials (not built)
[blue]Pa.349[/blue] remotely piloted aircraft for forest surveillance purposes, derived from Pa.49; took off from a vehicle and landed with a parachute (not built)

[blue]Pa.G5[/blue] AERACAR straight-wing twin-boom flyable car/roadable aircraft ('G' for Guérin) (1958, 60% complete)

[blue]Pa.M10 (Pa.Z10)[/blue] GUÉPARD twin-engine three-fin tandem-wing flying wing with canards (1959, started and not completed?)

[blue]Pa.P1[/blue] cruise missile project with piston engine (1938, not built)


NOTES:
- The French "avion de tourisme" has been translated here as "private aircraft" for lack of a better term.
- The "K **" numbers were sequential inhouse designations for all of Payen's projects which do NOT match the "Pa" numbers.
- All "Pa" numbers from 10 (Pa.100) to 76 (Pa.76) are now documented except for 21, 23, 28, 38, 39, 41, 45, 54, 55, 58, 69 and 72.
- There remains some confusion (for now) over the Pa.220, Pa.221, Pa 22/2, Pa.22/R1 and Pa.22/1R designations.

Other details on Payen designation list:
SP stands for Sauvage-Payen
AP stands for Aubrun-Payen
Payen AP 10.V2 corresponds to K36/31
Pa 610 or Pa 61 O, Arbalette III
Pa 249, version of the Pa 49 with retractable landing gear, composite material.
Pa 349 Radio-controled aircraft
Pa 50 Glider with a prone pilot.
Pa 22S Delta racing aircraft project with retractable canards (drawing from above mentioned AE issue)

Drawing (by Payen) of a transport twin-engine flying wing project.

I want to add a little bit more of confusion ;D with the help of the three-part article Monsieur Payen's Flying Follies, written by Ferdinand Käsmann in Fast Facts - The Speed Record Club Quarterly Magazine.

Here are his candidates, noticed during a visit in Monsieur Payen's "Concorde/Musée Delta" on 8 June 1993 (just the "new" ones for the list):

Pa.225 CD - abbreviation CD (= Coupe Deutsch) is used as a part of the type designation (Fast Facts # 66, page 22)

P.310 CB2 digit 2 is used as a part of the type designation (Fast Facts # 66, page 23)

P.321AC3 “Air Cruiser” (Fast Facts # 66, page 23)

P.361TP (Fast Facts # 66, page 23)

P.430 HV "Éclair" (HV = Haute Vitesse) (Fast Facts # 66, page 25)

Pa.471 "Week End" (Fast Facts # 67, page 19)

Pa.472 “Aéria” (Fast Facts # 67, page 19)

Pa.473 “Week End” (Fast Facts # 67, page 19)

Pa.483 (alias for Pa.48/3) (Fast Facts # 67, page 19)

Pa.482 (alias for Pa.48/2) (Fast Facts # 67, page 19)

Pa.49 was originally known as “Delta Jet”, before being named after Payen’s daughter “Katy” (Fast Facts # 67, page 20)

Pa.26 “Miniè” (alias for Pa.61 "Novae" resp. Pa.64 "Novae") (Fast Facts # 67, page 21)

Pa.61A – the first specimen of Pa.61 becoming the Pa.61A (Fast Facts # 67, page 22)

Fléchair Héli-Plateforme HP22 – exhibited in 1972 (Fast Facts # 67, page 22)

(no type number) « Anaconda » - mail carrier (simple artist’s impression in Fast Facts # 66, page 24)

(no type number) « Paloma » - passenger plane (simple artist’s impression in Fast Facts # 66, page 24)

Thanks for the news

There a link about a profil of the Pa.249 :

http://minijets.org/typo3/index.php?id=128

There too the link to the main Payen page on AviationsMilitaires (only in french and i must update too... :-[ ) :

http://forum.aviationsmilitaires.net/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=877&view=unread#unread

Ahem... For the administrators : i cannot write more than 21 lines on the same post ???


The Anaconda is the Pa.380 from 1939
The Paloma is the Pa.46/17 from 1946

If i remember good, there are drawings of the Paloma and the Anaconda (one each) in the Concorde 02 of the Musee delta. Maybe Kässmann got them there.


Retrofit, thanks for the drawing of the transport twin-engine flying wing project, it's new for me

Deltafan said:

The Anaconda is the Pa.380 from 1939
The Paloma is the Pa.46/17 from 1946

Click to expand...

@Deltafan,

Thank you for giving the correct type designations to the names . I wonder how could be there just a name although Payen loved to give type numbers.

The Pa.46/6 "Bourrasque" (squall blow) seaplane is described at
http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/schneider/bourrasque.htm
translated: http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warbirds.jp%2Fkakuki%2Fschneider%2Fbourrasque.htm
It seems fictional though.

Tophe said:

.... It seems fictional though.

Click to expand...

I think, it is, as the list from the Trait d'Union issue describes the Pa.46/6 as a single-jetengined
delta. Monsieur Payen didn't make it easy for us, as the Pa.46-series seems to cover several
completely different designs, not just a basic design with its derivatives.
BTW, thanks for this reminder, as I noticed, that in our list it actually still was a "twin-engined floatplane" ... :-\

Tophe said:

The Pa.46/6 "Bourrasque" (squall blow) seaplane is described at
http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/schneider/bourrasque.htm
translated: http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warbirds.jp%2Fkakuki%2Fschneider%2Fbourrasque.htm
It seems fictional though.

Click to expand...

I recommend the highest wariness with Kakuki's website, which contains a few real aircraft but also a lot of fictional designs...

Tophe said:

The Pa.46/6 "Bourrasque" (squall blow) seaplane is described at
http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/schneider/bourrasque.htm
translated: http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warbirds.jp%2Fkakuki%2Fschneider%2Fbourrasque.htm
It seems fictional though.

Click to expand...

This "project" is an old stuff, for you too

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1469.0.html

Allow me to say this again: the Pa.46 Bourrasque is entirely FICTITIOUS!! The PA-100R however was a real project.

Deltafan said:

This "project" is an old stuff, for you too

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1469.0.html

Click to expand...

Sorry, I had forgotten, 5 years later. When the search tool of Secret projects does not find something, it is not easy to check. I think that, in every post we write, we should imagine how this will help to be found again someday (or by external visitors with Google). I will try to improve, sorry

Stargazer2006 said:

Allow me to say this again: the Pa.46 Bourrasque is entirely FICTITIOUS!! The PA-100R however was a real project.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's known since the 27/03/2007, at least. It's why i wrote project between " "

Tophe said:

Deltafan said:

This "project" is an old stuff, for you too

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1469.0.html

Click to expand...

Sorry, I had forgotten, 5 years later. When the search tool of Secret projects does not find something, it is not easy to check. I think that, in every post we write, we should imagine how this will help to be found again someday (or by external visitors with Google). I will try to improve, sorry

Click to expand...

No problem, we all can make the same. For exemple, sometimes, when i am too busy at work, i forget things from the same day ;D

Having finally been able to explore the Trait d'Union list long and hard, I've been able, not only to produce a much more complete Excel file than the one I'd done previously (over 275 entries now!) but also to try and make sense of the various numbering systems and their inherent (lack of) logic.

Roland Payen himself commented that one should not try and find any logical sequence in the numbering of his aircraft types as there simply was none... Still, a few patterns emerge and show that in fact there were various attempts at various points in his design history to create numbering systems but these ended up overlapping and repeated the same designations to the point that it just wasn't clear probably even to him!


Prefixes

Most of Payen's designs used the prefix Pa. (as in Pa.350 for instance). But it wasn't always the case. His earliest designs used the prefixes RAP. or RP. (the latter standing for Roland Payen obviously, although the middle "A" in the former is still mysterious). The famous Pa.100 even started life as the NRP.260, the only known use of the NRP. prefix (for Nicolas Roland Payen, his complete name).

When Payen associated with another engineer, their initials combined to create a different prefix. Aircraft designed with his friend Robert Sauvage resulted in the SP. prefix for Sauvage-Payen. There was also BP. for Bétemps-Payen, PM. for Payen-Mélot (in this case the name of the company that produced the ramjet engine), and AP. for Aubrun-Payen.

Right after the war, Payen foresaw the start of several separate families of aircraft and granted them distinct prefixes (possibly with the hope of starting separate companies too): Aé. for Aéraplane (a family of general aviation projects), Ro. for Rolandair (a standalone private aircraft project) and UP. for Uniplan (a series of designs derived from the Aubrun-Payen AP. series). However all these new designations were stillborn and soon the Pa. prefix became the only one to be used by Payen, even when the contractor had a different name (such as the Fléchair Pa.49B).

With the Pa. system now firmly established, Payen sometimes saw the need to add an extra letter to indicate collaborative projects. This resulted in Pa.C (for Carmier, but not only), Pa.D (for Druine), Pa.G (for Guérin) and even the weird Pa.Z (sometimes found as Pa.M) which I can't explain for now...

Finally, the numeral prefixes 1/2/3/4 in some designations such as the Pa.149/Pa.249/Pa.349/Pa.449 series simply indicate subvariants or derivatives from the original Pa.49 and are therefore out of sequence.


Suffixes

There are several types of suffixes in Payen designations:

• Some of them serve to indicate the subvariants of a main type and are most often letters (Pa.61/B, Pa.61/D, Pa.61E, etc.) which may or may not be separated from the designation by a slash. Often, Payen didn't use the letter "A" and started directly at "B"...
• Sometimes, the subvariants are indicated by numeral suffixes such as Pa.22 V3 to V5 (also known as Pa.22/3 etc.) or Pa.47/01 to Pa.47/04.
• Often, the suffixes (especially in prewar years) indicated the mission of the design: Pa.320P vs. Pa.320R (Prop/Ramjet versions), Pa.100CD (for Coupe Deutsch), Pa.330H (for Hydravion = seaplane), Pa.430HV (for Haute Vitesse = high speed).
• Sometimes the numeral suffix after a slash indicates a subvariant (as in Pa.49/2 and Pa.49/5) but in other cases it doesn't! The Pa.46 series, for instance, contains quite a few derivatives of the « Fléchair » design but also completely different types! That is because Payen used "Pa.46" for all his 1946 designs, with the suffix indicating the project number for that year (Pa.46/1 to 8, Pa.46/12, Pa.46/13, Pa.46/16, Pa.46/17). But even that logic was blown when he designated the Pa.46/252, Pa.46/400 and /410 that same year, because he obviously did NOT draft over 400 projects that year!
• In one instance, the suffix letter indicates the co-designer of the project: Pa.26G (for Gayral).
• In one instance, the suffix indicates the year of the subversion: Pa.61/91, a derivative of the Arbalète designed in 1991.
• The suffix /P (with or without the slash) was used by Payen for many of his replica and rebuild projects done for J.-B. Salis: RAK.1P (Opel RAK.1 replica), Fok.D1P (Fokker triplane replica), 2A2/P (Salmson 2A2 replicas), etc.

The above is certainly not exhaustive nor does it explain everything, but it identifies several patterns that are repeated and help to better understand Payen's complicated numbering systems!

The K list

The "K" system used to number Payen's projects was kind of an afterthought... As Jemiba aptly puts it, it was kind of an attempt to produce a catalogue raisonné of his works, in other words, to put some logic in the mess of his hundreds of designs... Sort of like Mozart's own "K" or Bach's "BWV" catalogs of works !

However, it was NOT the work of an overzealous and misguided historian, but was introduced by Payen HIMSELF. The "K" prefix was the initial letter of Katy, one of his daughters who also inspired the name of the Pa.49B prototype... Originally Payen himself kept the list up to date, but in later years Katy herself made additions and updates to it.

The "K" list is strictly chronological, starting at K1 (Payen's very first design when he was 14) and going up to K168 and beyond — one can assume he added a few more to the list between 1992 (when the list was published) and 2004 (when he passed).

A sign that it must have been a hard task even for Payen to trace every old project and draft is the fact that suffix letters had to be introduced when forgotten projects were discovered, starting at "B" (as in K9, K9B, K9C, K9D). In some cases however, the "A" letter can be found and may have been necessary to add one more design to the chronology that had been missed out. It could also be the result of Katy's own way of archiving as opposed to her dad's (Payen usually skipped the letter "A" and started at "B").

The "K" list deals with all Payen's aircraft work: the types that he built but didn't design, the types that he designed but didn't build or the types for which he redrew plans for others to rebuild (movie replicas). It does NOT take into account Payen's non-aircraft designs such as the Fléchair HP 22 B « Héli-Plateforme » (a helicopter platform exhibited in 1972) or the various other systems, mechanisms and patents he produced over the years.

A very small number of designations previously quoted on this forum or elsewhere were still missing in the 1992 list. They might have been added later on, or perhaps not. They will be added to the chronology but indicated as unconfirmed or dubious.

I'm attaching a little something that shows Payen's near-obsession with properly designating and organizing his design history:
[list type=decimal]
[*]This detail shows the caption which accompanied the drawing of the Novae flying saucer in 1955. At the time, the Arbalète was the Pa.60 and so he designated this, his next project, quite logically as the Pa.61.
[*]When the Arbalète prototype was redesignated as Pa.61/B (for unknown reasons), Payen redesignated his Novae project as the Pa.64 and reworked the caption accordingly.
[*]At some later time, presumably when archiving his past works, Payen added the mention "K 55-91" on the side of the drawing to indicate that this was the 91st design in his K-list and was drafted in 1955 (similar hybrid date/number designations exist in the Pa. list, too).
[/list]

Many thanks for that great work ! It hopefully will revive this topic.
Of much more than half those designs, we have no idea, what they looked like !
Come on folks, squeeze your resources ! Don't know, if there's still much sense
in waiting for a book about, we probably really have to do it on our own.

Wow ! I just red your good (english) work Stargazer !

Jemiba said:

Many thanks for that great work ! It hopefully will revive this topic.
Of much more than half those designs, we have no idea, what they looked like !
Come on folks, squeeze your resources ! Don't know, if there's still much sense
in waiting for a book about, we probably really have to do it on our own.

Click to expand...

I think you're right. I wanted to go to the Musee Delta for some weeks (and to give to them some airplane comics with a character, "Mr. Peyan", looking like Mr.Payen : Les ailes de Plomb) and to ask about the book of Gaillard-Molveau but the Musee is still closed... And we began this topic six years ago... :-\

It is maybe time for me to find time to go again on Secretprojects (and to torture once again the english language ;D) and on my french list on AviationsMilitaires.net... And i did not forget that i had to answer to you on another link

I got today Le Fana from February 2014

By chance there is an article (the third in the story of Le Fana. The first had three parts, and the second, the best, had two parts) by Roland de Narbonne about the Payen's planes. Nothing very new for the reader of Secretprojects. One mistake (the flying Pa.49 is the B, not the A...). The article says that the Pa.22 flew only one time (it confirms another information, but other autors said that it flew several times) and that it was foreseen to go to Germany after this sole flying time.

Deltafan said:

I got today Le Fana from February 2014

By chance there is an article (the third in the story of Le Fana. The first had three parts, and the second, the best, had two parts) by Roland de Narbonne about the Payen's planes. Nothing new for the reader of Secretprojects. One mistake (the flying Pa.49 is the B, not the A...). The article says that the Pa.22 flew only one time (it confirms another information, but other autors said that it flew several times) and that it was foreseen to go to Germany after this sole flying time.

Click to expand...

This kind of mistake is unacceptable for a publication such as Le Fana, which had gotten us used to much higher standards in the past.


I have become terribly disappointed by Le Fana, whose standards have gone down tremendously, and if I want some truly detailed and exhaustive articles, and articles about less known aircraft types, then Avions is a MUCH better buy for my money...

Jemiba said:

If we don't want to wait for at least another seven years ... we just have to work it out on our own !
(...)

Click to expand...

I talked with Pierre Gaillard today...

He said to me that the book about Payen's planes and projects must be available this year (2014). He could finally find a Publisher.

I hope so.

Deltafan said:

He said to me that the book about Payen's planes and projects must be available this year (2014). He could finally find a Publisher.

Click to expand...

That's VERY good news!!!

Great, keep us informed, please !

Has Pierre considered publishing this online?

For a price that he could determine, someone interested could buy the pdf file of the book.

That way he wouldn't have to wait for a publisher to deign to consider publishing his book.

Sorry about the slightly sarcastic line.

Well, in the DVD of Mémoire et patrimoine vivant http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24580.msg247803.html#msg247803

M. Payen speaks about two "désignations" :

a Pa.161, but with jet. So it's an unknown version of the :

-K145 Payen Pa.161 projected lambda-wing tandem two-seater derivative of Pa.61 with canards and 75 hp engine 1983 not built

Addendum : I just saw the bottom left of this "Pa.161 with jet engine" (what M. Payen says to the interviewer), it's wrote Pa.261-01, so it's :

-K147 Payen Pa.261 projected three-seat derivative of the Pa.61 1984 not built


During the interview, M. Payen speaks about the :

-K92 Payen Pa.675 twin-jet transport aircraft project designed with the École Polytechnique Féminine 1956 not built

and says that it was a "Concorde-like jet".

So, it could be this one, which is on the Payen patent part of the Musee Delta website :

http://museedelta.free.fr/payen/brevets/perfectionnement%20aux%20avions/bns2.pdf

maxmwill said:

Has Pierre considered publishing this online?

For a price that he could determine, someone interested could buy the pdf file of the book.

That way he wouldn't have to wait for a publisher to deign to consider publishing his book.

Sorry about the slightly sarcastic line.

Click to expand...

Sorry I found this post only today :-[

Well, it's a good question. I'll ask the next time that i'll meet M. Gaillard or somebody of the Musee Delta...

Great news my dear Deltafan.

hesham said:

Great news my dear Deltafan.

Click to expand...

Thanks Hesham

I just added something in my previous post about the "unknown version of the Pa.161 with jet engine" : it's certainly the Pa.261, but now, contrary to before, we know that it had a jet engine.

With a better computer screen or a better TV screen or a better DVD-reader it's possible that other things will be found (the engine of the Pa.261 for example).

In my files,

there was a Project for long range airplane,could flight to far distance,and never mentioned in Stargazer's
list at reply # 57,later I will send all details.

hesham said:

there was a Project for long range airplane,could flight to far distance,and never mentioned in Stargazer's
list at reply # 57,later I will send all details.

Click to expand...

Hi,

I think or maybe this missing Project,was taken the designation Pa.??,it's only my speculation.

There's been several mentions of the range of designs covered by Pa.46 designations. One - the Pa.46/16 - is described as a "design for 2-seat touring aircraft". That sounds about right but the project I'm looking for was listed as the 1946 Payen Pa.46/A. Has anyone come across that specific designation?

I've seen this unbuilt Pa.46/A described as a general aviation 2-seater inspired by the Walter H. Barling-designed Nicholas-Beazley NB-3 light plane. That seemed a little odd - if true, that Barling design was over 15 years old by the time Payen considered it.

BTW: The Remy Gaucher concept that becomes the Pa.47 Weekend, etc. began as Gaucher's 1935 W.E.47 design.

hesham said:

there was a Project for long range airplane,could flight to far distance,and never mentioned in Stargazer's
list at reply # 57,later I will send all details.

Click to expand...

From Ailes 1935,here it's.

I don't think, there's any need to invent a new designation for this one, just have a look at project
K27 from the list, you've mentioned:
Twin fuselages, two coupled inline engines, and the P.320 was intended as a long range, fast postal
aircraft. And the date of the publication fits, too ...

OK my dear Jemiba,

but 7000 km range ?.

That's exactly what is mentioned in a list compiled by Ferdinand C.W. Käsmann, who visited personally Roland Payen in
the Musée Delta in Athis-Mons , France, in 2001. I could have a look into his copious collection of sources about Payen (though
mainly second hand sources, there were a number actually written down after interviewing Roland Payen), collected by Mr. Käsmann
(known from a number of books), as it thankfully was given to me for some time by our member boxkite.
BTW, sorry, in my previous post, I mixed up the P.320P with the P.360, but the P.320 probably could have had enough tankage due to
the big delta wing. Additionally it should be taken into account, that all those projects, rather were, what we nowadays would call
"concepts", so the predicted performances should always be taken with a pinch of salt.
But during those years "long range" often just meant transatlantic range.

Hi,

there was an early two seat biplane,powered by one 35 hp Anzani engine,of 1933,did we
include it here ?.

hesham said:

Hi,
there was an early two seat biplane,powered by one 35 hp Anzani engine,of 1933,did we
include it here ?.

Click to expand...

What is the source and what is said exactly ?

Deltafan said:

What is the source and what is said exactly ?

Click to expand...

My dear Deltafan,please read my PM,

and I try to remember,the only one source for Pa.323 ?,can anybody help ?.

hesham said:

Hi,
there was an early two seat biplane,powered by one 35 hp Anzani engine,of 1933,did we
include it here ?.

Click to expand...

Probably mistakes for the year and the number of seats.

Only the RAP 40 matches, and according to the author Pierre Gaillard and Pilote Privé magazine (and the available drawings), the year is 1931 and the RAP 40 had tandem "wings", not tandem "seats".