FOAS / FCBA /FOA / FCAC

hesham

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
26 May 2006
Messages
33,897
Reaction score
14,273
My dears,

During the early of 1990s,UK lauched a program LO (low observable aircraft)
to replace Tornado GR.MK4,and in 1997,it change the program into FOAS
(future offensive aircraft system).France and USA were shared in the program,
and the partenrs were GEC,Matra,BAe dynamics,Rolls-Royce,smiths and
Lookheed-Martin.The aircraft may be unmanned and it have a stealth technology.

any additions are welcome.
 

Attachments

  • foas2s.jpg
    foas2s.jpg
    4.9 KB · Views: 4,991
  • foas3s.jpg
    foas3s.jpg
    4.7 KB · Views: 4,877
  • foas5s.jpg
    foas5s.jpg
    4.8 KB · Views: 4,916
  • BAES_FOAS_Concept.jpg
    BAES_FOAS_Concept.jpg
    4.6 KB · Views: 2,383
Okay. So it started in early 90s as FOA (Future Offensive Aircraft) with aim to replace Panavia Tornado and Harrier. The same program was created by Royal Navy and was named FCBA (Future Carrier Borne Aircraft). Both programs were merged with idea to replace both planes with the one fighter and this is were FOAS was born. Great Britain joined JSF, so the replacement of the Harrier was solved, so attention turned to the replacement of the Tornado. In 1997 the FOAS was modified and from then it contained also unmanned alternatives and cruise misile CALCM (Conventionally Armed Air-Launched Cruise Missile).

In Paris aerosalon last year was announced, that the FOAS was cancelled. It was replaced by newly established FCAC (Future Combat Air Capability). The new goal is to modify current or near future weapon systems to the missions, originally planned for FOAS. The hottest candidate is Eurofighter. It will be supplied by new unmanned combat air system. Its development will be easier thanks to the serie of experiments named SUAVE (Strategic Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Experiment).
 
Interestingly enough, the F-35 by its very nature is quite adaptable to a UAV variant. I can see a mix of manned and unmanned ones serving.
 
Matej said:
The new goal is to modify current or near future weapon systems to the missions, originally planned for FOAS. The hottest candidate is Eurofighter. It will be supplied by new unmanned combat air system.
Click to expand...

An unmanned Eurofighter variant?

BAE Systems now owns the former Tracor target-drone conversion business. It isn't hard to imagine an operational system based on the same technology as the Q-series unmanned figher conversions. The only question is why it has never been attempted before? I always assumed that the target drone radio datalinks were limited to line of sight, but that wouldn't be an issue with a satelite uplink?

So, could obsolete Tranche 1 Eurofighters be turned into UCAVs before the end of the next decade?
 
I seem to recall an outfit called AVPRO did some work on FOAS - I certainly recognise some of the images with I think came from them BTW - whatever happened to them? They had a very interesting website for a while, which now seems to be gone.
 
TinWing said:
An unmanned Eurofighter variant?
Click to expand...

I dont think so. I meant manned Eurofighter supplemented by some unmanned UCAS, probably operational Tarrantis. Technically it cant be a problem to modify Eurofighter to unmanned mode, but I think its not effective - the same as F-16DR IUCAV. However its my opinion, not some official statement, so probably we will see some unmanned Eurofighters in the future.
 
aemann said:
I seem to recall an outfit called AVPRO did some work on FOAS - I certainly recognise some of the images with I think came from them BTW - whatever happened to them? They had a very interesting website for a while, which now seems to be gone.
Click to expand...

AVPRO had some very interesting graphic concepts, but all these were just paper works, not even with detailed research work behind. I remember book that was overfilled with their concepts, will look tomorrow, one of the concepts (SpecOps man carrying pod for Harrier?) was even at mockup stage.
 
This might be slightly OT, but the bottom image in Hesham's intital post has always interested me. It used to be on the BAE Systems website, and there is a much bigger version of it floating around somewhere. I assumed as it was on the BAE site it wasn't an AVPRO concept, though it seems to be similar in layout at least to the "Northrop Advanced Manned Concept" patent. Looking at the planform especially the outer wings, which on the Northrop aircraft were supposedly of variable geometry, and you can see similarity here. Granted the Northrop design has a single engine and this one two, though conceptually the two do seem to bare some resemblance. Therfore, I've wondered if perhaps it was a little more concrete or representative than perhaps some of the others. Though as is always the way with this sort of thing, maybe not!

Sorry first post, been reading this site for a while, thought I'd add what little I could!

Northrop Patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPATD365545&id=O1UqAAAAEBAJ&dq=Northrop+365545
 
PaulC said:
Granted the Northrop design has a single engine and this one two, though conceptually the two do seem to bare some resemblance.
Click to expand...

Replica resembles the failed MD/N-G JSF proposal, which is hardly surprising - BAE Systems was team member.
 
Sold on Ebay a while ago
 

Attachments

  • a6_1_b.jpg
    a6_1_b.jpg
    15 KB · Views: 733
  • 90_1_b.jpg
    90_1_b.jpg
    12.7 KB · Views: 2,202
  • 40_1_b.jpg
    40_1_b.jpg
    20 KB · Views: 2,242
  • 02_1_b.jpg
    02_1_b.jpg
    22 KB · Views: 2,373
Interesting ebay finds, Overscan.
Looking at this particular bird - which appeared in many BAE publications and on booth walls over the years - it looms firmly subsonic, with a large weapon bay and small nozzles. Sort of a super-F-117.
 
it looms firmly subsonic
Click to expand...

What evidence do you have for this? I don't see any reason this could not be a supersonic capable design.
 
Took this at the Salmesbury families day last year... interesting to say the least...

Zeb
 

Attachments

  • IMGP0020.jpg
    IMGP0020.jpg
    32.3 KB · Views: 3,144
zebedee said:
Took this at the Salmesbury families day last year... interesting to say the least...

Zeb
Click to expand...
Could that be a ASTOVL study? That pipe looks a bit like something you see on the Remote Augmentor Lift System (RALS).

Then again it does look a bit AVPRO to me ;D
 
The cockpit arrangement also interesting... the second shot was the other model on the stand... just wished I could have taken better shots but it was small stand with lots of people...

Zeb
 

Attachments

  • IMGP0021.jpg
    IMGP0021.jpg
    46.5 KB · Views: 1,084
  • IMGP0020a.jpg
    IMGP0020a.jpg
    32.8 KB · Views: 2,786
Hmmm....I remember reading comments of a synthetic vision system in the context of FOAS.

Odd though is the pilot's head is the wrong way around for maximum G tolerance IMO.

What would folks say the size of this machine was if built?
 
Size?
Depends how big the pilot is...
That design is just weird. If someone can explain how it makes an iota of sense, please explain it. You've got four tails, which tells me that you value agility over observables. But then the pilot can't see out... and if you're four-tail, then the canopy isn't really the dominant signature. Is the idea that we're trying to operate against laser threats and we have to protect the pilot?
On the subsonic thing...
I'm looking at what seem to be fixed exhausts, so unless you've got a magic Advent-style engine that suggests a non-augmented engine. At the same time, the thing looks a bit thick around the midriff. I'm guessing subsonic.
 
Errr well.....
Synthetic vision would use similar 360 degree optical coverage as the JSF does/will.
The pilot views the outside world through a series of screens showing a stiched together image from external sensors and being a screen, it can overlay various types of data on that image. Or even show it false colour representation for IR vision for example.

Lack of a canopy saves a little weight, and some drag, but having the pilot lie back is mainly about G tolerance.

Tails as compared to a lack of them add control surfaces.
 
I was about to say, "hmmmm, looks like this UAV is designed so that they could slip a cockpit in it if they wanted to," then I took a closer look!

Either way, synthetic vision or no I'd rather have a full bubble canopy around me, if nothing else as a back-up. Not to mention because I'm claustrophobic :p
 
Well if your sitting in a highly unstable machine your life is already dependant on the computers, so the loss of power argument is a false one. Failure of the system means your jet is going to do a flip and tear itself apart in the process.

But yes clostrophobia and eyestrain from looking at screens for hours is whats likely to have killed the idea off. Human factors.

But the synthetic vision system gives you 360 by 360 coverage, no hiding in any blind spots, no hiding in the sun. Flying at night would be no different to flying in the day.
 
zen said:
Well if your sitting in a highly unstable machine your life is already dependant on the computers, so the loss of power argument is a false one. Failure of the system means your jet is going to do a flip and tear itself apart in the process.
Click to expand...

Not from a total computer failure, but independent systems can still fail. For example, a BA Airbus had its MFDs fail but it was still flyable. If they put that type of redundancy in an airliner, I hope they put that type of redundancy in a tactical combat aircraft.
 
Don't forget, they may be considering using synthetic vision to also protect the pilot from the effects of high energy weapons, such as laser systems? Personally, I thought one of the main reasons for synthetic vision might be to position the pilot elsewhere, such as on that one Northrop-Grumman long range supersonic strike design that has been shown as an unmanned aircraft and also with a cockpit back near the dorsal inlets. Although they did provide some windows above on the manned version.

What I also find interesting about that BAe concept is the second inlet duct. Is it taking boundary layer air from behind the splitter plate and using it to cool the engine bay or as a separate inlet for a variable bypass engine?
 
Sundog said:
What I also find interesting about that BAe concept is the second inlet duct. Is it taking boundary layer air from behind the splitter plate and using it to cool the engine bay or as a separate inlet for a variable bypass engine?
Click to expand...
I don't think it is an inlet duct, if you look at the clear section between the trailing edge of the wing and the tailplanes it looks as though there may be Harrier style lift nozzles that deploy when the cruise nozzle is closed for V/STOL operations just like the Boeing and MDC/NGC/BAES JSF concepts. That ducting is for a Remote Augmentor Lift System (RALS) in my opinion.

Do you think it could be a two seater (side by side) it looks quite wide?
 
I hope they're planning on a low-bypass engine (GAKK COUGH SURGE) for the production version too because that is the most horrible inlet I have seen... it makes me short of breath to look at it. The model and painting on the wall behind it also reveal some more shaping, including what looks like a B-2 toothpick leading edge profile.
 
Second photo at Zebedee post identified as Manchester University's CC/FTV Demonstrator, SANTOS, built under BAe-sponsored 5-year FLAVIIR (Flapless Air vehicle Integrated Industry Research) program.

"In modifying existing model aircraft there are many limitations when dealing with new technology – not the least of which is that the craft was not designed with this technology in mind and hence a retro-fit can become complex. To learn and research more about working with a common secondary air supply and in achieving full control over an aircraft without using any conventional control surfaces a model scale craft (SANTOS) was designed and built at Manchester University. A planform representative of possible UAV designs was chosen (similar in form to the Boeing X-45). This vehicle has a wing span of less than 2m and a weight of around 5kg. The craft is electrically powered and has two thrust vectoring nozzles allowing for the possibility of yaw control. The craft successfully flew in February 2006 and, at the time of writing, is currently undergoing further flight trials to investigate the control requirements of using only the CC and FTV for a full flight cycle."

AIAA 2006-3504
FLAVIIR – An Integrated Programme of Research for UAVs
Philip Woods
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre, Bristol, UK
 

Attachments

  • santos.jpg
    santos.jpg
    162.3 KB · Views: 1,040
If I remember correctly that Flight article was about the RAF's Future Offensive Aircraft (FOA) studies. The caption to that picture is a bit confusing but it could be referring to a US Common Affordable Lightweight Fighter (CALF) concept which the RAF probably considered as a potential FOA candidate.
 
The nose and intakes on the Salmesbury photo look very similar to the Tornado 2000 and I've read various things about a delta winged Tornado? Could this be in interim step between Tornado 2000 and FOAC/FOAS/Replica or even HALO? Elimination of the canopy would help reduce the RCS but the air intakes do not look too stealthy - unless certain aspects of the aircraft were limited by it being based on a Hawk. At HALO time - 1995-98, an RAF Hawk was 'given' to BAe?
 
overscan said:
Sold on Ebay a while ago
Click to expand...

Dear Overscan, I used to be Production Manager in the factory were these models were made (by the hundreds). We called them JASTs........

How on earth did one end up on e(vil)Bay?

All best, Terry, (Caravellarella)
 
Nice find hesham, a very interesting article. I'm betting zebedee's pic is a stealth version of the P112 ASTOVL concept mentioned in that article.

For each ASTOVL concept made public, a parallel stealth version has been submitted in secret to the UK MoD.
Click to expand...

zebedee's pic and the P112 provided by Overscan.
 

Attachments

  • IMGP0020.jpg
    IMGP0020.jpg
    32.3 KB · Views: 760
  • 1988_12784L.jpg
    1988_12784L.jpg
    11.6 KB · Views: 922
BAe has also submitted a bigwing variant of the EF2000 as a potential FOA candidate. MoD officials say that if the EF2000 was
to form the basis of the FOA airframe, then further substantial changes would be needed, included improving its low-observable characteristics.
Click to expand...
 
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1998/1998%20-%202268.html?search=skunk%20works
 

Attachments

  • foas.jpg
    foas.jpg
    184.7 KB · Views: 755
Just got hold of the latest issue of Air Pictorial.. sorry Aviation News, still cant get used to the new name... anyway there's an article on this project...

Apparently its the P125, and it made it as far as full scale mockup. The article makes VERY interesting reading...

Turns out she's a full V/Stol bird, the ducting is for the front nozzle of RULS system, the rear
lift exhaust exiting through vectored nozzles between the wing trailing edge and horizontal stabiliser.

Zeb
 

Attachments

  • IMGP0020.jpg
    IMGP0020.jpg
    32.3 KB · Views: 347
Any posibility to get this single issue?. I'm not interested on a subscription...
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom