Current mystery aircraft / urban legends

royabulgaf said:
The problem with all the aircraft urban legends is why? Why do we use the problematic space shuttle or buy Soyuz tickets when we have all this neato stuff? If we have all those long-range high speed aircraft, why is NASA so thrilled when they get a surfboard sized UAV to fly mach 6 for two minutes? Why are aerospace companies losing competitions when they presumably have stuff up their sleeves that could blow the doors off the competition? Why have these same companies gone to their corporate graves when unveiling a tenth of these wonders would have allowed them to dominate the industry for decades to come? Riddle me this, Batman.

1. Most of what DoD or the government does defies that kind of logic.
2. Often an aerospace company *can't* use these technologies in other products. They may have been developed under contracts or rules that prohibit it. Bird of Prey and Polecat were developed with company funds to keep control of the technology, instead of letting the government dictate how it could be used.
3. Just because a technology is advanced does not make it commercially viable.
 
quellish said:
2. Often an aerospace company *can't* use these technologies in other products. They may have been developed under contracts or rules that prohibit it. Bird of Prey and Polecat were developed with company funds to keep control of the technology, instead of letting the government dictate how it could be used.
3. Just because a technology is advanced does not make it commercially viable.

Both of which are good points... and both points argue *against* sizable numbers of Neato High Tech Airplanes. If the companies can't make a buck off of 'em, they're not going to expend much effort on 'em.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Both of which are good points... and both points argue *against* sizable numbers of Neato High Tech Airplanes. If the companies can't make a buck off of 'em, they're not going to expend much effort on 'em.

It depends on what you call sizeable. It is extremely unlikely that most of the aircraft mentioned in this thread have flown, in fact a good number of them are easily disproven. There are, however, considerable resources expended by both government and contractors that specifically support classified flight test programs every year. Most of these, however, are not very "neato". The sky over Nevada is not full of strange shapes like in a Dale Brown novel, but there are interesting things happening out there using some of the unique capabilities of that range and others.
 
royabulgaf said:
The problem with all the aircraft urban legends is why? Why do we use the problematic space shuttle or buy Soyuz tickets when we have all this neato stuff? If we have all those long-range high speed aircraft, why is NASA so thrilled when they get a surfboard sized UAV to fly mach 6 for two minutes?

Because there are "black" programs and "white" programs, and these are developed by separate entities within the company. The guys/gals who work on the "white" programs do not have the clearance to access the "black ones".

royabulgaf said:
Why are aerospace companies losing competitions when they presumably have stuff up their sleeves that could blow the doors off the competition?

Because most of the "black" programs are funded by the DoD and therefore the technology does not belong to the company per se. The line between white and black has been blurred these past few years, however, with Boeing communicating on some of its Phantom Works projects ahead of their flight programs (intentionally, presumably, as the visible tip of the iceberg).

What I wrote above shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Indeed, the military always used the new technologies first, and only later could the civilian applications thereof be found. It is not because a company knows how to do stuff that it is allowed to do it!

royabulgaf said:
Why have these same companies gone to their corporate graves when unveiling a tenth of these wonders would have allowed them to dominate the industry for decades to come?

Often because they got huge contracts from the military that were later cancelled. They had already spent millions developing the stuff, found no return on their investments and went bankrupt. Simple as that. In aircraft history the companies that lasted long were those which consistently had work under their sleeves, those that never counted on the military alone for survival, those who had a foot in the civilian market as well: Boeing is the best example of this. McDonnell Douglas and Fairchild were also in that position once, but harsh competition from Boeing for the former, and bad management for the latter put an end to that (plus the fact that Fairchild relied for a great part upon the A-10 and the T-46, which was cancelled). Companies like Vought, Grumman, General Dynamics or Martin, which relied mostly on military contracts, closed shop as prime contractors when they found themselves with no contract. Only companies like Northrop and Lockheed, which have dealt mostly in highly classified projects, were able to keep afloat because that position gave them an edge for a long time.

Today, out of the big three on the American market, namely Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and Boeing, only the latter has the civilian market covered. It means it is the least likely to go out of business in my opinion. The others are dependant upon the whims of the politicians, the political climate, the state of the Middle East and what have you... Boeing, however, will always have airlines to sell aircraft to.
 
Orionblamblam said:
I would imagine that the Thrill Factor of watching an airshow composed wholly of UAVs would fall somewhere between that of an RC airplane meet and a regular airshow... but much closer to the former.

It could have its moments...

[flash=200,200]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwKZXdJlPsA[/flash]

Imagine seeing something like that outdoors with a next gen tactical UAV.
 
royabulgaf said:
The problem with all the aircraft urban legends is why? Why do we use the problematic space shuttle or buy Soyuz tickets when we have all this neato stuff? If we have all those long-range high speed aircraft, why is NASA so thrilled when they get a surfboard sized UAV to fly mach 6 for two minutes? Why are aerospace companies losing competitions when they presumably have stuff up their sleeves that could blow the doors off the competition? Why have these same companies gone to their corporate graves when unveiling a tenth of these wonders would have allowed them to dominate the industry for decades to come? Riddle me this, Batman.

The counterpoint to that is "Then what IS being worked on out there?". We know that billions of dollars a year disappear into the black budget, that there is a large and expanding base in Nevada that employs thousands of people. We know that the large aerospace companies spend millions on projects that don't coincide with any visible output. Something is being worked on, but what?

I think the place to watch would be Palmdale. This is where most of these things seem to get built, then shipped elsewhere for testing and service.
 
"We know that the large aerospace companies spend millions on projects that don't coincide with any visible output. Something is being worked on, but what?"

The taxpaying public?
 
royabulgaf said:
"We know that the large aerospace companies spend millions on projects that don't coincide with any visible output. Something is being worked on, but what?"

The taxpaying public?

Just look at NASA's manned spacecraft developments after the space shuttle. It is public information.There has been little fruit, yet countless billions have been spent.
 
"We know that the large aerospace companies spend millions on projects that don't coincide with any visible output. Something is being worked on, but what?"

Six Sigma. 5S. EVMS. Kaizan. SEI. PSP. TQMS (Total Quality Management System - when imposed at Douglas Long Beach, it was quipped that the acronym stood for "Time to Quit and Move to Seattle"). TQL (Same as TQMS - Total Quality Leadership- except the Navy said "we don't manage, we have Leadership!"). Stretch Goals. LEAN (Less Employees At Northrop). COR (Contractor Operations Review - remember COR?) In short, whatever management fad comes this way.

Remember, "Process is more important than product".

GAH!

The demotivational lamp is now secured. As you were.
 
cthippo said:
I think the place to watch would be Palmdale. This is where most of these things seem to get built, then shipped elsewhere for testing and service.

Palmdale is a little obvious, and moving a "something" out of there is easily hidden within normal traffic at the facility. It is often better to look elsewhere, like subcontractors that specialize in very specific things (i.e. strange titanium alloys, high temperature frequency selective materiels, etc.), or to look for certain things being diverted from other programs or storage. Engines and landing gear are good things to look out for. Assets that would be needed to test a "something" are also a good thing to look out for. Has a B-52 or DC-130 disappeared lately? Are the activities visible to you consistent with developmental, or operational testing?

To get back on topic, Chris Gibson's north sea sighting is still a mystery.
 
To get back on topic, Chris Gibson's north sea sighting is still a mystery. The odd craft always looked like F-111s with the wings at full sweep.
 
royabulgaf said:
To get back on topic, Chris Gibson's north sea sighting is still a mystery. The odd craft always looked like F-111s with the wings at full sweep.

Refuelling at full sweep seems hardly advised.
 
Gibson said that there was an aircrft being refueled by a KC-135 that had a sharp triangular shape and that 2 F-111s appeared to be flying chase alongside, wings fully forward.
 
"The odd craft always looked like F-111s with the wings at full sweep"

"Refuelling at full sweep seems hardly advised"

If forced to do so, the F-111 could have even land with wings at full sweep.
IF the wings of a F-111 couldn't be brought forward and IF it was very low on fuel,
I think, there would have been ways to refuel it this way. Would be better, than to
lose one of a flight of three F-111. ;)
 
Jemiba said:
"The odd craft always looked like F-111s with the wings at full sweep"

"Refuelling at full sweep seems hardly advised"

If forced to do so, the F-111 could have even land with wings at full sweep.
IF the wings of a F-111 couldn't be brought forward and IF it was very low on fuel,
I think, there would have been ways to refuel it this way. Would be better, than to
lose one of a flight of three F-111. ;)

Probably. I wonder, though, if any official statement in this vein has been made.
It would be so simple.
 
"It would be so simple."

Would it be really simple ?

telling that it was a Vulcan, or something else known, is like the policeman
telling the crowd "It's all ok, nothing has happened, go on !", when you still
can see the debris. It's a synonyme for "we won't tell you single word" and is
taken as such, even if there really isn't anything to tell.
And the alternative is to tell "Yes, it was an aircraft you still don't know !"
Is this very probable ? ;D
 
geeshockbloke said:
Chris told me that a USAF General said it was an RAF Vulcan.

Back in the fifties, an Air Force officer told a curious boy that the white jet he had seen fly by was "an X-5, son". Yet we learned 40 years later that it was in fact a Yak-23 in U.S. guise... For that reason alone I will NEVER trust the words of insiders trying to convince us that there's nothing unusual to be seen. If there is, they have orders to dismiss any question or doubt, and to be as convincing in their denial as possible.
 
So, denial is an indication of existence ... But what if we find our proof in actual, authentic, truthful denial?

No, I tend to believe that a hypersonic vehicle has been tested by the US Air Force, but not in an operational guise. Aurora, if an operational spyplane, would be too easily detected.
 
royabulgaf said:
To get back on topic, Chris Gibson's north sea sighting is still a mystery. The odd craft always looked like F-111s with the wings at full sweep.

You said the 'odd craft looked like' - just curious as to know what image you base this on?

The only 'picture' I have ever seen was in a documentary and it was drawn by Chris Gibson, and the shape/scale was nothing like the F-111s that he also drew.

As far as I am aware, his credentials as an 'aircraft observer' are unquestioned, so I would suggest that his statement that it not being an aircraft that he recognised (if we are to accept his testimony, which is all we have) then, while it is very unlikely to be a misidentification and, quite possibly, a 'black program,' it remains a mystery.
 
Although what it was is certainly still a mystery, some parts of this discussion have been done before:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2868.0/highlight,chris%20gibson.html
 
The funny thing is that many of the mystery aircraft listed here came from observer reports - which are about the worst source of information there is ;)

Even worse, a lot of them started with a sketchy eyewitness account of something in the sky, and then conclusions and analysis resulted in an "aircraft". The TR-3 is a good example. People see triangular things in the sky, around the same time "Tier 3" is overheard around NRO people, and all the wrong conclusions are drawn.
 
I think I've said it before, but the original "Aurora" inflight refueling sighting is totally compatible with the design that once appeared in a Hughes advertisement among the many projects the company was subcontracting for at the time, and which has later been refered to by enthusiasts as the "F-121 Sentinel". I seem to recall that the "Sentinel" bit was in reference to a recording in which that codename appeared to designate an aircraft of similar configuration that was spotted taking off at night from a desert facility.

index.php
 
Is there a "full" version of that pic? In many cases illustrations like that will have a notional "future-aircraft" towards the upper "future-work" section and I'm wondering if that might be the case.

The problem with Gibson's sighting being a "distressed" F-111 is that even silohetted by the sun he was trained to recognize it. The shape is just not right. On the OTHER hand flying over an oil rig with a classified aircraft would be a seriously stupid thing to do. (I also note that he specifically does NOT note that the "triangle" being 'on-the-boom' so it's not like it was refueling or being 'towed' by the KC-135. BTW, YES that CAN do that though it's not easy or safe but if the "triangle" was in-trouble that would have been a rather 'obvious' point for an observer to note)

Given the "depth" of United States "disinformation" directed towards the USSR during the '80s, (look at SDI) it is quite possible the sighting WAS actually a "set-up" in effect. (It would be a good step to see what kind of air-traffic radar observations were made of the area, and how long those aircraft were flying around out there :) )

Randy
 
Alright, I don`t know the facts, but I can make some comparative guesses. in order to construct airplanes you need engineering expertize and capacity. usually both are evident even within white world projects, but can be used as a gudeluine to guess the ability of a country to engineer complex airframes within black world. judging from the engineering peak in Soviet Union, which was from 1980 until the collapse of USSR, I would guess that US peaked out about the same time. And if there were any secret projects they probably were constructed in late 80ies. looking at the engineering capacity nowadays- we can see that Boeing heavily outsources engineering abroad ( 787, Dreamlifter, etc.) giving a hint their engineering capacity is declining. the same could be said about Lockheed-Martin, they flunked Venture Star just by being unable to construct a solid nitrogen tank. Boeing flunked Comanche. llockheed failed now with f-22 as well. And you want me to believe that somewhere in mysterious hangars yy-2 the same way educated engineers miraculously manage to build Auroras and Liquid rotating mercury TR-3 triangles. Right..... I said, I don`t know the truth, but the hints are pointing towards one big `nope` than `affirmative`. my bet is they keep the legends alive in order to suck out funds, similar to moonlanding. Alright here is my bottom line- if Americans were on the moon, then most likely they have most of the above mentioned exotic aircraft.( comparable expertize hint).
 
You've got a point here, ADVANCEDBOY. But let's not forget that some programs get canceled, not because the company is unable to produce them, but because of policy changes in the highest spheres of political/military decision. The F-22 is a case in point. There is no doubt that Lockheed Martin could/would have built a lot more than 187 pieces if the political climate had been different.
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
we can see that Boeing heavily outsources engineering abroad ( 787, Dreamlifter, etc.) giving a hint their engineering capacity is declining.

I'm sure it has nothing at all to do with cheaper labor abroad, or handing out production contracts to secure orders.

ADVANCEDBOY said:
the same could be said about Lockheed-Martin, they flunked Venture Star just by being unable to construct a solid nitrogen tank.

Surely that had nothing to do with the composite liquid hydrogen fuel tank design being something untried at that point.

ADVANCEDBOY said:
Boeing flunked Comanche.

Yes, because the Army decided the money was better spent elsewhere with wars going on, it means Boeing completely screwed up the program. Which hadn't even gotten to the EMD phase.

ADVANCEDBOY said:
my bet is they keep the legends alive in order to suck out funds, similar to moonlanding. Alright here is my bottom line- if Americans were on the moon, then most likely they have most of the above mentioned exotic aircraft.( comparable expertize hint).

Unfortunately actual science has blown apart all of the asinine moon hoax logical perversions. This has nothing to do, however, with the existance or lack thereof of weird aircraft in the Nevada desert.
 
This is the classified Air Force procurement budget going all the way back to 1987. The numbers in the right column are BILLIONS with a B. Note the small budget bump after 9/11 and then the giant budget bump after the start of the Iraq war. If there weren't at least a few classified platforms acquired with this money, the taxpayers would surely like to know where in the hell the money went.

1987 11.1
1988 9.9
1989 8.2
1990 8.4
1991 8.3
1992 8.3
1993 7.2
1994 7.4
1995 6.5
1996 6.7
1997 5.4
1998 6.1
1999 6.6
2000 6.4
2001 7.0
2002 8.5
2003 12.4
2004 13.7
2005 15.6
2006 16.2
2007 17.2
2008 16.2
2009 16.6
2010 17.0
 
That is just the secret procurement budget or does this include RDT&E?
 
sublight said:
This is the classified Air Force procurement budget going all the way back to 1987. The numbers in the right column are BILLIONS with a B.

Which years does these numbers include NRO procurement and which does it not? Is this including AF's portion of DoD procurement? Are these budget requests or actual allocations? How much of this money was divereted to unclassified programs? How are the values being normalized for different accounting methods over these years?
 
sublight said:
This is the dollar amounts the Air Force received for those years listed.

I would check your sources on that.
 
quellish said:
sublight said:
This is the dollar amounts the Air Force received for those years listed.

I would check your sources on that.

...Do *you* have sources to the contrary? If so, please cite them yourself to help avoid a bunch of running around and goose chasing.
 
Hi boys

About the Ka-58 there is a possibility that it exist i'm studing the facts around that project for years now
yes it was officially denied by OKB Kamov but in a tv show i think it was Udarnaia sila one of the engineers told that Kamov have study on stealth Helicopter my opinion consider it as speculation is that Ka-58 is concept for late production variant of Ka-52 i know it's hard to believe in that as I said this is just thematic speculation i have already made 3 models on the subject i can shear some photos of them if some one have interest
 
OM said:
...Do *you* have sources to the contrary? If so, please cite them yourself to help avoid a bunch of running around and goose chasing.

Sure, every P-1 for the years you mentioned. For example, for 2009, there was $14.448B in line no 999, and $409.2m in the AF's contribution to NRO. This makes $14.857B in procurement, not "16.6".
Every year uses different accounting and reporting practices. I am not going through each of them to correct your information.
 
I post this one solely due to the source, user '2495' at MP.net. Those who visit MP.net with an aircraft interest will know he is normally well informed:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?194837-Hunting-the-Fast-Movers
 

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SOC said:
ADVANCEDBOY said:
the same could be said about Lockheed-Martin, they flunked Venture Star just by being unable to construct a solid nitrogen tank.

Surely that had nothing to do with the composite liquid hydrogen fuel tank design being something untried at that point.

LH2 "tanks" no, but it was not like the techniques for construction of cryogenic composite storage tanks were not well known and understood. ATK (whom LM sub-contracted on the design and construction of the composite tanks) was well aware of the various needs for composites and specified a particular inner lining material for the tank due to the KNOWN thermal expansion/contraction issues of the composite structure. LM management vetoed the liner and went with an un-lined tank. As expected by ATK the composite micro-cracked and allowed LH2 into the sub-structure. After a few cycles the gas pressure within the composites blew the tank apart. No surprise to those who worked with composites on a regular basis.

Just a few years after the X-33 was cancled, Northrop-Grumman delivered a full-up composite LH2 test tank to NASA for testing and all they did was consult with ATK who actually had experiance building LH2 compatable composites. Unlike LM, NG actually LISTENED to the experts they hired.

Part and parcel of a number of "failures" over the decades with new technology and cutting edge engineering is the fact that the engineers are also "human" and can have excessive pride and over-inflated ego's just like anyone else :)

Randy
 
mr_london_247 said:
I post this one solely due to the source, user '2495' at MP.net. Those who visit MP.net with an aircraft interest will know he is normally well informed:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?194837-Hunting-the-Fast-Movers

I remembered a very similiar flat-fronted shape from an old ATS Thread, and so here is the source of that one for comparison:

[ATS]
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread471430/pg1

[Original Source for ATS Thread]
http://www.ufocasebook.com/2009b/greenvillesc052609.html
 

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mr_london_247 said:
I post this one solely due to the source, user '2495' at MP.net. Those who visit MP.net with an aircraft interest will know he is normally well informed: ...

I don't remember having visited that forum, but read through the thread - if the account of activities (on the author's part and of the other parties' too ...) is accurate, it's certainly been an amazing effort. It's not every day (operational, multinationally supported) USAF (?) black projects of this magnitude come to light. If it turns out this program has been active from the early '90's in some shape or form, admittedly a fuzzy concept with all the "legacy R&D", then its covert status has been maintained well over a decade longer than what the celebrated YF-12/SR-71 project was afforded. Considering the thing is supposed to have touched down on several locations throughout the World makes one wonder just how "open" a secret this may have been for interested friend and foe alike. It's somewhat hard to imagine something as ... ballistic as that could've been missed for too long. Not that the idea itself is very new, the earliest work on airplane type global hypersonic trajectories I've come across must be something like 80 (?) years old. Thanks for pointing this development out, even if "Virgin Galactic" may end up appearing somewhat less special by comparison.
 

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